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Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 49  

post #1441 of 2847
Thanks! Subbysouth is a great American!
post #1442 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanton
I went to CES 2006, and spent some time looking @ SED (pronounced as three separate letters) and talking to the Canon guys.

The prototypes on display (by both Canon and Toshiba) were 40 inch 720p units; all that they would confirm is that these WON'T be what you'll initially see commercially (most likely bigger and, of course, 1080i/p). I found the differences in "marketing" between the two companies were interesting. While they were both showing the same basic display panel, you could see that Toshiba had sold TV's before and Canon has NOT. In other words, the Toshiba demo was a bit more consumer oriented even though their handouts were full of typos (why don't these companies employ a few Americans to do their marketing?? Even I would do it for the right price!!).

I've been following SED for awhile now, and I was very impressed with what I saw (not necessarily heard) at CES. However, I am beginning to wonder whether they'll be able to deliver the technology at price points acceptable to the market, and whether anyone will even care by the time they do. Some of these 1080p LCD monitors are looking pretty good...
Pricing according to Canon would be competitive to other flat panel technologies. As we don't know the price of 1080p LCDs or Plasma next year we're not sure. The 50" 1080p announced for this year appear to be in the 9-10k price for Plasma and arround 7 or less for LCD.
post #1443 of 2847
Another factor related to PCs is the character size you get with the resolution you select. For example, I run two 19" monitors doing 1600x600 viewed from 4' and find the chars almost too small. That's equivalent to a 23" 16:9 screen (19"x.6=11.4; 11.4/.49=23.3) To use 1024 (vs 600) and have the same char size at 4', I would need a 40" screen(1024/600*23.3=39.8") To move back to 5', I would need a 50" screen (5/4*40=50")

So, to have larger chars, I will need >50" from 5'. I will need to increase distance for degraded content.

RE, Artwood's "Does SD or ED or HD material make a difference or is it only the size, pitch, pitch and and native 1366 X 768 that makes a difference?" But for 1080, no way would I want to watch SD from 5' on a 50" screen.

subysouth, Please comment on the following SWAG:

Viewing distance for a 45" 1080p: @4' for PC, @5' for BR, @6' for HD-DVD(just kidding), @7' for HD lite (@8' for sports), @12' for SD digital and @15' for analog SD. Correction, SD in a little PIP.
post #1444 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtr_wkr
Another factor related to PCs is the character size you get with the resolution you select. For example, I run two 19" monitors doing 1600x600 viewed from 4' and find the chars almost too small. That's equivalent to a 23" 16:9 screen (19"x.6=11.4; 11.4/.49=23.3) To use 1024 (vs 600) and have the same char size at 4', I would need a 40" screen(1024/600*23.3=39.8") To move back to 5', I would need a 50" screen (5/4*40=50")

So, to have larger chars, I will need >50" from 5'. I will need to increase distance for degraded content.

RE, Artwood's "Does SD or ED or HD material make a difference or is it only the size, pitch, pitch and and native 1366 X 768 that makes a difference?" But for 1080, no way would I want to watch SD from 5' on a 50" screen.

subysouth, Please comment on the following SWAG:

Viewing distance for a 45" 1080p: @4' for PC, @5' for BR, @6' for HD-DVD(just kidding), @7' for HD lite (@8' for sports), @12' for SD digital and @15' for analog SD. Correction, SD in a little PIP.
I disagree. 37" 1080p is fine at 4 feet, at least in Mac OS X. I was able to test this myself, since I had a 37" 1080p LCD in my house briefly (until I discovered it wasn't HDCP compliant).

Thus, I think a 45" 1080p set would probably be OK at 6 feet.
post #1445 of 2847
Quote:
However, I am beginning to wonder whether they'll be able to deliver the technology at price points acceptable to the market, and whether anyone will even care by the time they do. Some of these 1080p LCD monitors are looking pretty good...
The whole point of SED, however, is to essentially correct the shortcomings that exist with all other current technologies. The CRT remains king in many areas and the idea of delivering the best of a CRT with the best of a flat panel would make for a vastly superior product. Resolution alone matters not, as LCD technology is still flawed (and so is plasma, for that matter). There are things that those displays just can't handle or handle well.
post #1446 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wtr_wkr
subysouth, Please comment on the following SWAG:
Whats a SWAG and I espouse a single viewing distance per display.

ss
post #1447 of 2847
My assumption is… (but I’m not speaking for the original poster)
Swag (disambiguation)
From Wikipedia
Initialisms
scientific wild-assed guess or silly wild-assed guess
post #1448 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuGsArEtAsTy
I disagree. 37" 1080p is fine at 4 feet, at least in Mac OS X. I was able to test this myself, since I had a 37" 1080p LCD in my house briefly (until I discovered it wasn't HDCP compliant).

Thus, I think a 45" 1080p set would probably be OK at 6 feet.
The 37" set would have a .43mm pixel and the 45" set would have a .52mm pixel so I see no problem with your distances.

ss
post #1449 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stanton
I went to CES 2006, and spent some time looking @ SED (pronounced as three separate letters) and talking to the Canon guys.

The prototypes on display (by both Canon and Toshiba) were 40 inch 720p units; all that they would confirm is that these WON'T be what you'll initially see commercially (most likely bigger and, of course, 1080i/p). I found the differences in "marketing" between the two companies were interesting. While they were both showing the same basic display panel, you could see that Toshiba had sold TV's before and Canon has NOT. In other words, the Toshiba demo was a bit more consumer oriented even though their handouts were full of typos (why don't these companies employ a few Americans to do their marketing?? Even I would do it for the right price!!).

I've been following SED for awhile now, and I was very impressed with what I saw (not necessarily heard) at CES. However, I am beginning to wonder whether they'll be able to deliver the technology at price points acceptable to the market, and whether anyone will even care by the time they do. Some of these 1080p LCD monitors are looking pretty good...
I suspect the price point for the SED 1080p 55"er to go the way of Pioneer, and charge a premium for their first SED display. It'll cost you to play SED in these initial generations.
post #1450 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
I suspect the price point for the SED 1080p 55"er to go the way of Pioneer, and charge a premium for their first SED display. It'll cost you to play SED in these initial generations.
That's assuming it ever gets made in the first place (for the commercial market). I'm not going to hold my breath personally.
post #1451 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
I suspect the price point for the SED 1080p 55"er to go the way of Pioneer, and charge a premium for their first SED display. It'll cost you to play SED in these initial generations.
That's all speculation, you don't know what Toshiba and Canon is up to.
post #1452 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogogus
That's assuming it ever gets made in the first place (for the commercial market). I'm not going to hold my breath personally.
I'm sure Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic are hoping you are right. They are shaking in utter fear of SED ever coming out. SED is going make plasmas look like your grand daddy's TV.

100,000-1 constrast ratio, bright vivid colors, with black level and shadow detail that surpasses the venerable CRT. Which means when you turn down the lights you want see gray bars on top and bottom of 2:35 image displayed on a 16x9 set, you will see pitch black or the complete absence of light. I'm geeked overed SED. I don't care if it takes 3 more years, I'm tired of this crap they keep selling to us and calling it great PQ.
post #1453 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
I can understand the feelings of those who are tired of waiting for SED, and need to, or want to upgrade now. Some of them having been tracking SED for a considerable time, and have grown weary of the litany of deferred product achievement dates. I did not start really looking into upgrading from my HD CRT until the last few months, so perhaps I have not suffered the same amount of expectations burnout that others have. That is why I am willing to wait until the next CES to see if the will have a 55 inch strutting it's stuff, or not.

That said, I need some historical product introduction data perspective from those of you have long tracked the emergence of Plasma, Large LCD, DLP and OLED displays. What I am interested in looking at, is what was the prevailing large screen technologys at the time each of them was introduced. For example: did DLP enter as a challenger to rear projection CRT, what was the initial price difference between comparable sizes of each, and did people pay a goodly amount more to get the DLP, and if so, what was the motivations for enough people to purchase DLP to have it make such quick market inroads.

Same thing for Plasma. What did it go up against, and what was the first generation price difference between it and what it was to supplant.

LCD same questions.

What I am looking for is information that would help in judging the recent declarations posted on this thread that SED will have to compete against Plasma, and LCD at the same price level, even if the picture quality is vastly superior to either. Did people pay a premium in the past for new display technology, over existing or did DLP, Plasma, LCD etc, have to come a the same price as the existing technology.

I am not posting this to solicit conjecture, I just would like those who have facts on the pricing history of the various displays, to put things in a pricing history perspective for me.
So, does anyone have specifics about the data I previously asked for about prior display technology price rollouts compared to what it was going into competition against. Did they sell at a premium or not, and if they did, why couldn't SED do the same?.
post #1454 of 2847
I already see (virtually) complete black on top/bottom bars on my Panny 42PA25U, and I typically view in a semi-darkened room. If it were not for the bright silver bezel I would not know the bars were there at all.

"There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." Mark TWain
post #1455 of 2847
Any more delays and we might see the holosuite before SED....
post #1456 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
I'm sure Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic are hoping you are right. They are shaking in utter fear of SED ever coming out. SED is going make plasmas look like your grand daddy's TV.

100,000-1 constrast ratio, bright vivid colors, with black level and shadow detail that surpasses the venerable CRT. Which means when you turn down the lights you want see gray bars on top and bottom of 2:35 image displayed on a 16x9 set, you will see pitch black or the complete absence of light. I'm geeked overed SED. I don't care if it takes 3 more years, I'm tired of this crap they keep selling to us and calling it great PQ.
then your sig is appropriate. keep the light burning for me then, eh? in the mean time I'll continue watching my plasma. ;)
post #1457 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
That's all speculation, you don't know what Toshiba and Canon is up to.
Of course this is speculation. That's all everyone on this thread has been able to do since Toshiba/Canon will not release any news or info. This has led to guessing and speculation on most aspects of the SED display, sooooo...if I had to "guess" if a 55" SED Display would be priced, I would think it would be at least as much as one of the current Plasma 55"ers, a Fujitsu P55XTA51US w/a MSRP of $9,000.00. Fujitsu plans on releasing a line of 1080p Plasmas in its next generation, and I would expect the MSRP to be even higher than their current lower rez TV's. You do the math, and tell me if you "think" a state-of-the-art bleeding edge 55" SED Display will be cheaper than todays lower rez Plasmas.
post #1458 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Of course this is speculation. That's all everyone on this thread has been able to do since Toshiba/Canon will not release any news or info. This has led to guessing and speculation on most aspects of the SED display, sooooo...if I had to "guess" if a 55" SED Display would be priced, I would think it would be at least as much as one of the current Plasma 55"ers, a Fujitsu P55XTA51US w/a MSRP of $9,000.00. Fujitsu plans on releasing a line of 1080p Plasmas in its next generation, and I would expect the MSRP to be even higher than their current lower rez TV's. You do the math, and tell me if you "think" a state-of-the-art bleeding edge 55" SED Display will be cheaper than todays lower rez Plasmas.

With the exception of that ridiculous Qualia set, isn't Lcos priced cheaper than Plasma? You can come out with a bleeding edge technology cheaper than plasma. If Toshiba/Canon can introduce a 55 inch SED set at 10k that would be cheaper than Sony's 46 inch 15k 1080p Qualia LCD set. I don't see anyone criticizing Sony for introducing a 15k 46 inch TV like are doing with Toshiba and SED.
post #1459 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
With the exception of that ridiculous Qualia set, isn't Lcos priced cheaper than Plasma? You can come out with a bleeding edge technology cheaper than plasma. If Toshiba/Canon can introduce a 55 inch SED set at 10k that would be cheaper than Sony's 46 inch 15k 1080p Qualia LCD set. I don't see anyone criticizing Sony for introducing a 15k 46 inch TV like are doing with Toshiba and SED.
Somehow Sony lost money on their Qualia line even at those outrageous prices, and has now dropped the Qualia line altogether. Flat Panels such as Plasma, LCD, and hopefully soon SED are "direct view" video tech, and if the past & present pricing scheme is any indicator, which I think it is, then these type displays will be higher priced than competing "reflected view" displays, such as LCOS, SXRD, DLP, etc.

SED Displays will initially be a high end niche market and command premium pricing. Also, Early Adopters of SED displays will bear the brunt of the high prices until SED TV's gain marketshare and are able to ramp up production numbers. Plasma Displays went this same route, as did LCD Displays, as did VCR's...as did DVD's, etc., etc. Again, this is pure "speculation", but is based on my experience and the history of consumer electronics in general.
post #1460 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by subysouth
The 37" set would have a .43mm pixel and the 45" set would have a .52mm pixel so I see no problem with your distances.

ss
My 45" Sharp is a native 1080 display and when displaying 1:1 pixels with 1080i it's amazing - you can get within inches before seeing flaws and I view from 8.5' but could easily view at 6' with HD - EASY! In fact, 1:1 looks so amazing that I'd upgrade to the 65" if I had the spare $17K to do so ($8-$10K is my self imposed limit). Thus, it's hard to resist a $6K 2nd gen XRB SXRD with true 1080P if PDP/LCD's in the large sizes remain above $10K if the larger FP's come down can SED remain viable?

I recently have seen dramatic price reductions that may be getting ignored since they are not Panasonic they don't get much attention here. Samsung 5th generations PDP's have dropped quite a bit and their quality has increased according to most feedback comiing in. I guess we could all root for SED but the party is in full gear so they really need to get moving before price margins turns them into the Intel LCOS story and others. Mike53 of SharpUSA has also stated there will be surprising moves in price structures of FP's this Summer/Fall with Panny and Sharp bringing on line new production facilities and capacity.

I imagine the 1080P Panny PDP and others to debut soon would afford the same PQ of my Sharp and I've ordered a VP30 with the new ADT102 card and awaiting it's arrival to refine the SD on my next large panel to get the best of both. Perhaps the SED won't need a VP though saving a few K? We'll see perhaps in another year? :)
post #1461 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
I'm sure Sony, Pioneer, Panasonic are hoping you are right. They are shaking in utter fear of SED ever coming out. SED is going make plasmas look like your grand daddy's TV.
Yeah, their shakin' in their boots alright...

"The vaporware is coming, the vaporware is coming...."

Oh, the humanity.

At least they're selling real TV's right now.
post #1462 of 2847
Why be so gleeful in SED's difficulties?

Wouldn't it be better if Toshiba and Canon could deliver on their claims?

Better for consumers, better for competition in the market (as others will have to improve their technologies to be competitive)?

Or do people just want the incumbents to continue to own the market for some reason?
post #1463 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81
Why be so gleeful in SED's difficulties?

Wouldn't it be better if Toshiba and Canon could deliver on their claims?

Better for consumers, better for competition in the market (as others will have to improve their technologies to be competitive)?

Or do people just want the incumbents to continue to own the market for some reason?
Good point. It is to every consumer's benefit to have competing video tech & displays. Who knows if SED displays will crack the market, but I do think we'll eventually see Toshiba/Canon produce a display in 12-18 months.
post #1464 of 2847
It's just all the SED fanboys...

"I'll wait three years, I'll wait ten years, I'll wait till I'm dead...That'll show you..."
post #1465 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk
It's just all the SED fanboys...

"I'll wait three years, I'll wait ten years, I'll wait till I'm dead...That'll show you..."
If people chose to wait for a while to see if SED does get to market, and proves viable, why should their decision bother you?. It is not like they will not still have the fall back option, at some later date, to purchase a Plasma or LCD with evolved technology compared to today's specs, and perhaps at a lower price. Those who buy now, are not treated as "fanboys" in a pejorative way, and neither should does who decide to wait and see. If SED monitoring is not to someone's taste, then why click on the SED thread, and post about not been interested in waiting. If you are not interested in tracking the SED potential, then this thread is not for you, and there is no need for anyone to feel obliged to tell us about their scepticism.
post #1466 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Good point. It is to every consumer's benefit to have competing video tech & displays. Who knows if SED displays will crack the market, but I do think we'll eventually see Toshiba/Canon produce a display in 12-18 months.
This what we said 12-18 months ago? :D
post #1467 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
This what we said 12-18 months ago? :D
Yeah, this does seem like "deja'vue all over again" (Yogi-ism).:D I suppose CES 2007 will tell the tale on SED displays. Toshiba/Canon has already poured a ton of money into R&D, and last I heard they have a plant being tooled up for production. I wonder what exactly it is that is giving them problems w/extensions on their projected release dates? Anyone have a guess?
post #1468 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Yeah, this does seem like "deja'vue all over again" (Yogi-ism).:D I suppose CES 2007 will tell the tale on SED displays. Toshiba/Canon has already poured a ton of money into R&D, and last I heard they have a plant being tooled up for production. I wonder what exactly it is that is giving them problems w/extensions on their projected release dates? Anyone have a guess?
Pricing ;)
post #1469 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19
Pricing ;)
or maybe they just want to "get it right" before they release it so SED will dominate the FP market... :)
post #1470 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Yeah, this does seem like "deja'vue all over again" (Yogi-ism).:D I suppose CES 2007 will tell the tale on SED displays. Toshiba/Canon has already poured a ton of money into R&D, and last I heard they have a plant being tooled up for production. I wonder what exactly it is that is giving them problems w/extensions on their projected release dates? Anyone have a guess?
Just speculation on my part: Part of the problem might be a clash of corporate cultures. This is a very odd partnership. Canon has never marketed any consumer TV sets, and Toshiba has an established manufacturing and distribution history.

This is like the pairing of a Celibate and a Strumpet. Will they crank out offspring, or will the celibate convert the tramp into a born again virgin.

Say they do start to produce the SED sets: How will Canon get to compete on an equal distribution basis. Chains are not going to need the same SED models with both Toshiba and Canon badges on display, and if the go with the established Toshiba distribution chain, then they would have to share profits with Canon, which would make it have to sell at a higher price level. Toshiba might be better of, provided that they can get product to market, to just buyout Canon's interest.
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