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Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 52  

post #1531 of 2847
Plasma phosphors have lower activation energy than CRT ones do. This is probably why they age more rapidly. CRT phosphors get high-energy electrons with about 15 keV energy, while plasma phosphors must make do with low-energy ultraviolet photons. Different forumulation, different performance and lifetime.
post #1532 of 2847
Iso

Any ideas on SED? It is more like alot of tiny CRT "cells" than a pdp is. I have tried to read up but haven't seen anything in this dept about burn in. If they can use a different type of phosphor formulation (more like a CRT) then maybe it wont be a problem.
post #1533 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
Slim? I have had a couple of friends with PDP burn in problems. The hazard of watching 4:3 on a 16:9 I would say. The typical fix for the problem is to "age" the areas of the screen so that everything matches again. They have since stared using a strech mode to avoid the problem but that causes PQ problems in my eyes.
Where their displays properly calibrated? Oh and FWIW, I consider watching copius amounts of 4:3 material on a 16:9 set abuse ;)
post #1534 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19
Where their displays properly calibrated? Oh and FWIW, I consider watching copius amounts of 4:3 material on a 16:9 set abuse ;)
Yeh, maybe. But my reference to Joe Sixpack stands as to why. Besides people who visit these pages and learn, the best information that most people get before they buy one of these things is from the sales weasel at the store.

When they buy a TV that costs $1.5K to $5k, that is alot of money to most people. The assumption is that is a good piece of equipment and the thought of having to treat it with kid gloves for the first 100 hrs of viewing and paying for a dvd to calibrate it, or worse yet to pay almost $400 to have someone do it is a complete insult. Why shouldn't it work out of the box?

I think that they are right. For the money, it should be better and more rugged.

I have been waiting for SED for a while. Maybe not to buy, I don't want to be the pioneer so to speak for all of the initial problems. But if there are no real issues that arise then I'm interested. I see burn in as a issue, so do alot of other people, just look at the amount of space given to it on this forum.

I apologize to any sales weasels out there that I have offended with my description of their chosen profession.
post #1535 of 2847
LCD's don't have enough contrast. Plasmas have weired splotchy thing going on -- especially on non-HD stuff. SED sounds like it solves both problems.
post #1536 of 2847
Here's a good reference regarding the frequency of various radiations. Note that beta (electrons) and gamma (photons) radiation can both have x-ray energies. So too can alpha (helium nuclei) but they can't penetrate nearly far enough for x-ray purposes so are not used. Beta is not used for x-ray purposes because although it too can have high enough energies, its penetrating power is also insufficient.

Wikipedia phosphor entry - contains a long list of various phosphor formulations and their applications, along with other info.

What forumulation they use depends on the average electron's energy when it arrives at the phosphor surface. It is likely that, considering the short distance between emitter tip and phosphor, the electrons will have low energy (probably between 40-150 eV). Thus, expect plasma-type phosphors with similar output spectra and lifetime. Phosphor compounds with lower activation energy tend to be less stable and thus decay quicker.

Here is a very interesting paper, "Degradation of ZnS:CU,Au,Al phosphor powder and thin films under prolonged electron bombardment" It comes very close to the topic.

In a CRT, electrons are accelerated over quite a distance by high voltage, so have high energies on arrival (15-25 keV) (high enough that by regulation, the glass must be lead-impregnated to reduce beta radiation [this is a bit silly, because x-rays are between 50-200+ keV. CRT beta radiation can't even pass through aluminum foil]).

The reason for the large energy difference between CRT electrons and plasma UV photons is this: the CRT's phosphor is only activated once per frame, and decays to very-low brightness during the remainder of time. Thus it must be very bright when struck by the electron beam, because during the remainder of the frame-time it will receive no energy. Thus its peak to average brightness ratio is large.

So CRTs both require and provide high-energy phosphor targets and the high-energy electrons to activate them, respectively. I assume that higher activation energy means the compounds are more stable to degradation via thermal and other lower-energy initiated processes.

A plasma phosphor's peak brightness is much lower, because the cell is strobed somewhere around 0.2-1000x per frame (depending on requested brightness) using variable-frequency mode pulse width modulation.

Higher-frequency stimulation with lower-energy quanta means the phosphor must be more sensitive to ionization. At the same average brightness as a CRT phosphor, the plasma phosphor receives many more lower-energy quanta over longer periods of time.

This means that unless the duration of post-activation phosphorescence is decreased (ie. very short-persistence forumulation), residual emission will cause motion smearing on bright to dark transitions. In contrast, the CRT phosphor dot has an entire frametime to decay to zero brightness.

This problem has been only partially solved.
post #1537 of 2847
I have some friends that worked at Candescent, which was partly funded by Sony here in the US to produce FPD's.

Alot of the initial technology and ideas that Canon/Toshiba have used for SED came from there. The difference is that instead of having a anode/cathode combo in the bottom of the cell like SED, there was a emitter in the bottom of the cell that would discharge and the collection point would be the on the front with the phosphor. This seems like it would give you higher energy than the electron scatter that the SED relies on and maybe better phosphors.

But they were the trying to put a micron size emitter into a micron sized hole so that it would extend a specific distance into the chamber and it could not be done consistently enough for a commercial product. Hence the downfall. C/T has used the experience from there and solved the emitter problem, smart.

Hope it lives up to the one 8"screen that I have seen from Candescent. Beautiful, bright real potenial that was not to be.
post #1538 of 2847
Of course, emitter erosion could be the real limiting factor for both brightness and halflife. There are really only two targets for degradation in CRT, plasma and SED - emitter and phosphor.

The CRT's glow filament loses emission material, decreasing both brightness and current-electron flow linearity. Similarly, metal atoms are also stripped off plasma and SED emitters. They condense on the cell's inner surfaces - a portion of which is active phosphor, thus plating the phosphor and decreasing absorption of electrons in the case of SED and UV photons in the case of plasma. CRT doesn't have this problem to any significant extent due to several factors inherent in the design.
post #1539 of 2847
Iso,

Good info. Something to think about and you are right even though most people would consider these things as solid state device, thats really not true is it? Everything suffers from wear and tear.

Lets hope that SED wont be pushed back yet again. I don't know about the rest of you but I can't really afford to fly off to Vegas just to get a look at a SED display at CES. Also I would like to see the panel in more real world situations not just a static pic, but showing HD (720P and 1080P/I) and even SD from broadcast and DVD. That is the only way to tell if it will be right for you.
post #1540 of 2847
Oooh a science thread (right up my alley:))

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma
The reason for the large energy difference between CRT electrons and plasma UV photons is this: the CRT's phosphor is only activated once per frame, and decays to very-low brightness during the remainder of time. Thus it must be very bright when struck by the electron beam, because during the remainder of the frame-time it will receive no energy. Thus its peak to average brightness ratio is large.

So CRTs both require and provide high-energy phosphor targets and the high-energy electrons to activate them, respectively. I assume that higher activation energy means the compounds are more stable to degradation via thermal and other lower-energy initiated processes.

A plasma phosphor's peak brightness is much lower, because the cell is strobed somewhere around 0.2-1000x per frame (depending on requested brightness) using variable-frequency mode pulse width modulation.

Higher-frequency stimulation with lower-energy quanta means the phosphor must be more sensitive to ionization. At the same average brightness as a CRT phosphor, the plasma phosphor receives many more lower-energy quanta over longer periods of time.
Very interesting, but phosphor degredation is a current density issue as well. Because SED will have ~1/3 anode voltage than CRT the current density will have to be tripled. This means SED phosphors will not only have to be low voltage phosphors but be very very stable as well. And since SED is supposed to be passive matrix it will need to use pulse modulation as well.

Note: Because current density determines lifetime SEDs are going to incorporate two emitters per pixel to reduce current density and boost lifetime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
Alot of the initial technology and ideas that Canon/Toshiba have used for SED came from there. The difference is that instead of having a anode/cathode combo in the bottom of the cell like SED, there was a emitter in the bottom of the cell that would discharge and the collection point would be the on the front with the phosphor. This seems like it would give you higher energy than the electron scatter that the SED relies on and maybe better phosphors.
What do you mean by “scatter� SED is a three electrode system. Two on the bottom that constantly tunnel electrons between them using nano gaps at high fields (but low voltages 3-5 V) and a top electrode to pull electrons up into the phosphor. The top electrode will probably require ~10KV and will be the only addressable electrode.

The other technology you describe if FED (bottom tip field emitter)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma
Of course, emitter erosion could be the real limiting factor for both brightness and halflife. There are really only two targets for degradation in CRT, plasma and SED - emitter and phosphor
I think emitter erosion is not an issue with SED like it was with FED. SED is a planar source (rather than a field tip emitter like FED which no doubt would degrade over time). Remember the SED surface emitter is carbon so I don’t see how the Pd metal can plate the phosphor as you say? The biggest hurdles with SED and any FED for that matter is:

1) emmiter construction (uniformity and other issues)
2) beam uniformity
3) overall structural integrity (spacers required)
post #1541 of 2847
Like metals, carbon will also evaporate in a vacuum. You were right about the voltage, this article states about 10kV. So it looks like they'll be using CRT high-energy phosphor, meaning CRT or better colors.

Since they're using PWM, the phosphor might have persistence issues, but it seems they have resolved this by using double-framerate blackframe interleave.
post #1542 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox
Oooh a science thread (right up my alley:))

What do you mean by “scatter� SED is a three electrode system. Two on the bottom that constantly tunnel electrons between them using nano gaps at high fields (but low voltages 3-5 V) and a top electrode to pull electrons up into the phosphor. The top electrode will probably require ~10KV and will be the only addressable electrode.
Yeh, good stuff. By what you said above, only the top electrode will be addressable, kinda implies that the source pair are always on. Will this cause longevity problems? Been along time since I got my degree, but if you have a "High Field" at a low voltage, this would say to me that the current drive makes the field highly biased. I don't know how much current will go to the addressable electrode but high current or high voltage is corrosive, even in a vacuum.

EDIT
"Electron Scatter" is the source of the third electrodes electrons. Electrons that do not make it from the emiter to the collector across the gap are accelerated by the 10KV third electrode that provides the phosphor stimulation. Just read the article that Iso pointed to, knew I had seen the term somewhere.
End EDIT

All this is from someone (me) that maybe needs more up to date info and needs to read more. Please feel free to educate me.
post #1543 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
Yeh, good stuff. By what you said above, only the top electrode will be addressable, kinda implies that the source pair are always on. Will this cause longevity problems? Been along time since I got my degree, but if you have a "High Field" at a low voltage, this would say to me that the current drive makes the field highly biased. I don't know how much current will go to the addressable electrode but high current or high voltage is corrosive, even in a vacuum.
If you have a high field a low voltage the gap between electrodse must be very very small. In SED it is a nano sized gap. Thus to get high fields you only need a few volts. I think it would have to be on at all times and I'm not sure if this poses any lifetime issues ( may very well be the case ) I only know SED info from what I've read in scientific journals. There are very few on SED (I've only seen 2) and they don't go into much detail.

Cheers
post #1544 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isochroma
Like metals, carbon will also evaporate in a vacuum. You were right about the voltage, this article states about 10kV. So it looks like they'll be using CRT high-energy phosphor, meaning CRT or better colors.

Since they're using PWM, the phosphor might have persistence issues, but it seems they have resolved this by using double-framerate blackframe interleave.
SED will have to use low voltage phosphors very different than in a CRT because the current density will be so high compared to CRTs. Otherwise they would burn out very quickly.

I've only seen one reference to PWM in SED so that fact is not confirmed in my mind. As far as phosphor persistance and PWM in plasma or possibly SED, the "on" time per pulse is very short compared to the addressing time. For instance, Plasma displays have 8-13 pulses (subfields) per frame period yet the total "on" time is only about 4-6ms.

I wonder what the decay time of Plasma phosphors is compared to CRTs. I've read that modern CRT use high speed phosphors as well.
post #1545 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox

I wonder what the decay time of Plasma phosphors is compared to CRTs. I've read that modern CRT use high speed phosphors as well.
Don't know if this helps but on another thread in a heated disscusion of LCD vs Plasma one of the posts mentioned that the Plasma decay from fully on to 1/2 brightness of full was 3-4ms. I think it was to 1/2, I will have to find the reference to be sure.

This is one of the reasons that Plasma looks better than LCD in alot of cases, the phosphor just fades and this helps soften the hardline moving images IMO. LCD with the ON/OFF has to have a quicker response time and better image processing or you see defects when images are fast moving.

I am hoping that SED has the whole package. Long lasting phosphors like a CRT (not like a plasma), high contrast ratio, suck you in like a black hole black levels, low power consumption and the sexy thin profile that you can put on a wall. All that and a price that will compete with LCD and Plasma.

I think that in the end price will be SED's savior or downfall. LCD's continue to fall and they are getting better.
post #1546 of 2847
Toshiba to Launch SED TV in 4Q 2007

Toshiba Corp. has unveiled its blueprint for SED (surface conduction electron-emitter display) rollout in an announcement of the mid-to-long-term business plan until 2008.

Because SED features lower material costs than LCD, the manufacturing costs, depreciated by facility costs, can be reduced. The company is currently swinging into action to prepare full mass production.

The company plans to start the initial mass production of SED panels at the conventional plant in Hiratsuka City, Kanagawa prefecture, in July 2007, with the size of 55-inch, and then bring the world's first SED TVs to the market from the fourth quarter of 2007. Full production in volume will be performed in the Himeji line from early 2008, and the sales of SED TV sets will target the Beijing Olympics in 2008, according to the company.
post #1547 of 2847
Is this a new article, or the same one we saw a couple of months ago?
post #1548 of 2847
This has to be newer than most I have seen. All of the stuff that I have found didn't even mention anything past 06. Of course I haven't been all that diligent in my searches though.

Just reading this can tell you a little about why there has been a holdup in the release. Mass production at the Conventional Plant says that they are using LCD equipment to start production. Canon which was supposed to design and produce the tool set based on their knowledge of inkjet printing and semiconductor stepper tools is having problems with making it work or production of the tools themselves.

IMO
post #1549 of 2847
If you go pack a few pages in this thread there was mention and some discussion of the fact that release date had been pushed back to 4/Q 07....
post #1550 of 2847
Well it's good to hear some postive news that they're still steadily moving forward :)
post #1551 of 2847
I don't know if this is "NEW" news or a re-hash of their early March news release. I wish we had someone on this Forum that works at either of these two companies to give us the inside scoop. CES is only 7 months away, and hopefully this will tell the tale on SED displays for 2007.
post #1552 of 2847
Anyone besides me find it a bit strange that after all the excitement over SED at CES there seems to be zero news coming from Canon or Toshiba?
post #1553 of 2847
Don't worry... SED will be available soon enough and well worth the $20,000 price tag that comes with it. :D
post #1554 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
Don't worry... SED will be available soon enough and well worth the $20,000 price tag that comes with it. :D
Ya think it will? I don't know about the rest of you but one of the reasons that I visit this forum is to learn more about HD and where to invest my money. Get the best bang for the buck by learning from people who are probably more informed than myself. What I have found out about the companies that invest, research, produce and sell the technology is less than encouraging.

Delays, technology that works and is better than what is out there but no appeal for J6P so it is shelved, etc... I just recently have reached my goal of saving $5K for a new HD TV only to find that it will not be sold in the US because it will have only a 4 month product cycle before it's replacement is introduced. Some stuff out ther would require a second mortgage to buy.

I had hoped that by this time that I would have more choices (ie SED) besides LCD, Plasma and a monster CRT (sorry no DLP, been to Dallas, seen the cleanrooms where this tech is produced and am not interested).

If IMO Toshiba/Canon have to use standard LCD equipment to get the SED production started instead of using a process akin to printing which is cheaper and will hold down the costs of these things then not all is lost, but it does not look good.

BTW to support my theory, I have news from Japan that Toshiba has bought several LCD coaters from my parent company. They could use this equipment for other uses, but the timing is suspect.
post #1555 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
I don't know if this is "NEW" news or a re-hash of their early March news release. I wish we had someone on this Forum that works at either of these two companies to give us the inside scoop. CES is only 7 months away, and hopefully this will tell the tale on SED displays for 2007.
It seems to me, that since they demonstrated a 720P set at the last CES show, they will have to display a larger 1080P model at the next CES, or have no credibility left about future distribution plans. It would appear to be a very difficult marketing assignment to get some of the large retail chains to place orders for 4Q 2007 sales, without having a working display product to make a judgement on.
post #1556 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by optivity
Don't worry... SED will be available soon enough and well worth the $20,000 price tag that comes with it. :D

Only that much for a 16 inch screen.......... :p
post #1557 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
It seems to me, that since they demonstrated a 720P set at the last CES show, they will have to display a larger 1080P model at the next CES, or have no credibility left about future distribution plans. It would appear to be a very difficult marketing assignment to get some of the large retail chains to place orders for 4Q 2007 sales, without having a working display product to make a judgement on.
Agreed, but if you go to some of the common B&M stores even though there are now starting to be alot of offerings at 1080P, places like CC and BB aren't going to carry them.

By the time 10/07 rolls around, who knows what will be out there in the stores. The price for a main brand (Sony, Samsung, Sharp, Panasonic, Etc...) will be different and the selection will be different. Maybe 720P sets will be a thing of the past or the sales weasels at the stores will have convinced enough J6P types that 720P is just as good and there will be less offerings at 1080P.

A year and a half is a long time
post #1558 of 2847
Posted a new thread on this but thought that all here would like to see this.

While SED may knock LCD and PDP out of the market, there is technology coming that could knock SED out. This article describes a technology that uses no color filters, no phosphors. As one person said, it is like reinventing the CRT without the phosphors.

Enjoy

http://www.eet.com/news/latest/showA...leID=187202747
post #1559 of 2847
Uh, so if theyre going to cost a fortune yet are cheaper to produce...what exactly is so great about SED? Unless something is freaking holographic 3D, its hard to imagine picture being $20,000 better (was that a real estimate?) than a plasma.
post #1560 of 2847
SED has had several release dates, all "rescheduled." It looks like it is NOT a sure thing. If they can't pump them out early, fast and competitively priced, they will miss their window of opportunity. It appears they may already have. This last delay in shipping actual products was one delay too many for some of us that have been following SED/FED over the years.

We should not blind ourselves to the obstacles to market, based upon our desire for a product such as has been described. Only a very few showings of the technology have occurred. Wanting it badly does not translate into an actual product on the shelves.

They also face future competitors. OLED is another long delayed product, but at least it is shipping in actual products you can buy- cell phones and PDAs. If they ever scale that up in size and increase lifespan, SED and most other technologies will likely disappear- OLED is too cheap to compete with. And there are other technologies coming, as in post 1544, above. It appears that future displays may be cheap. Current expensive dinosaurs may fade away.

Rarely does the "best" product, in terms of quality, win- or even survive. Often it is the best "bang for the buck" that wins. Sometimes other, perhaps unknown, factors dominate.
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