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Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 54  

post #1591 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
My time is worth $300/hr to my customers and they gladly pay it plus expenses. Why? Because I charge what the market will bear for the skills that I have.

It is getting ugly, can we get back on topic?
Dude... you must be an attorney. :rolleyes:
post #1592 of 2847
Opt,

I am a technician. I work on semiconductor, robotics and flat panel display processing equipment. The places that employ me can lose thousands per hour when a tool goes down (they run production 24/7/365). If I can get it back up an hour or two quicker than the in-house techs, they still save money even if they pay a $10,000 bill (my highest bill was about $45K).
post #1593 of 2847
Thread has been reported: please keep to the thread topic.:)

Thanks all
post #1594 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
Opt,

I am a technician. I work on semiconductor, robotics and flat panel display processing equipment. The places that employ me can lose thousands per hour when a tool goes down (they run production 24/7/365). If I can get it back up an hour or two quicker than the in-house techs, they still save money even if they pay a $10,000 bill (my highest bill was about $45K).
I'm a life-long techno-geek but my relative hourly worth is only about 1/3 of yours...

back on topic... no wonder you can afford an SED TV. :)
post #1595 of 2847
I have spent 2 years saving for a new HD TV, $20 to $100 a month to buy one. The WAF plays into the decision as well. BTW this will be my first HD purchase.

If SED takes over, many of my parent companys clients will have a hard time of it. Since the SED process will use a printing process to apply the phosphors, this is bad news for our company. We currently have a 80% market share of the color filter coater market worldwide. In Gen 7 and Gen 8 coaters we are at 100% (so far). The Toshiba/Canon partnership in some circles of the FPD equipment makers is considered almost unholy because it would mean that a large part of their business would be gone. Some of these makers made upwards of a billion $ last year.

But in the end, I am a good consumer and I will go with it, if it is better than the LCD I am currently looking at.
post #1596 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
I have spent 2 years saving for a new HD TV, $20 to $100 a month to buy one. The WAF plays into the decision as well. BTW this will be my first HD purchase.

If SED takes over, many of my parent companys clients will have a hard time of it. Since the SED process will use a printing process to apply the phosphors, this is bad news for our company. We currently have a 80% market share of the color filter coater market worldwide. In Gen 7 and Gen 8 coaters we are at 100% (so far). The Toshiba/Canon partnership in some circles of the FPD equipment makers is considered almost unholy because it would mean that a large part of their business would be gone. Some of these makers made upwards of a billion $ last year.

But in the end, I am a good consumer and I will go with it, if it is better than the LCD I am currently looking at.
If you read the papers submitted by SED inc from last years SID you will be very happy.

SED will use color filters.........
post #1597 of 2847
While I am on the subject, if any company can change the way FPDs are made it is Canon.

A quick check will show that Canon has one of the largest patent portfolios around and they usually don't patent just an idea, typically it is a working model that they have tested an are ready to try out in real life.

For Canon SED is a win/win. They are already one of the largest Stepper suppliers to the FPD industry. If they can leverage the experience they have with printing and make even more money with future sales of that equipment to the SED makers that is great for them. If SED fails, they are still in it with standard FPD as well.

IMO, Toshiba is the one that if SED fails will be left swinging in the wind. Despite Toshiba being almost a household name, as Japanese companies go they are only small to mid size. A loss here will come close to killing them. Expect hari-kari from the highest floors of some expensive downtown Tokyo real estate.

This is why I don't think that Toshiba will let SED die, and I expect that Canon will add cash to the project as well. Toshiba can't afford to do anything else but go on with it, despite delays in mass production.

Just a few musings for all to enjoy or not.
post #1598 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by xrox
If you read the papers submitted by SED inc from last years SID you will be very happy.

SED will use color filters.........
Yes, but they will probably be applied using a printing technology. That is what we are worried about. Our coaters are part of a multi-step process, with the hybrid printing process that has been proposed, many steps become just one or two. That is the cost savings that SED was going to bring into play. Less equipment, smaller fab space, quicker capital investment write off times, etc...
post #1599 of 2847
BTW, SID will be in my neighborhood this year. I am going to see if myself and a coworker can attend. We actually have business with someone who is going to attend.

If anyone wants to attend I know that it is in SF this year and the admission is $30. Might be worth it just to see if there is a working SED panel there. If I can write it off a an expense, even better.
post #1600 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
Yes, but they will probably be applied using a printing technology. That is what we are worried about. Our coaters are part of a multi-step process, with the hybrid printing process that has been proposed, many steps become just one or two. That is the cost savings that SED was going to bring into play. Less equipment, smaller fab space, quicker capital investment write off times, etc...
Well, if Canon and Toshiba are going to keep SED for themselves and not let anyone else produce SED displays, you don't need to be worried that much, cause it will take many many many years until Canon and Toshiba can produce enough displays to take a real piece of the overall market share. Of course, in the long run, if SED is as good as it sounds and if Canon and Toshiba get it done, you might run into trouble.

But then, where would OLED leave you? That's going to be printed, too, or am I wrong?
post #1601 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19
They have viable methods....just not as inexpensive as the printing method they were hoping for/still developing.
Another distinction without a difference. Viable encompasses methodology which permits the production of a product, and getting it to market. Hoping for a printing method, still smacks of Potemkin Village deception. Did they tell people at the last CES show, when they were promising early 2006 product to market, that they had not yet established a viable production methodology. Now, they say in the article which I cited, that they still have not overcome the most difficult manufacturing obstacles. There is not much point in drooling over a empty soup bowl because somebody claims that in the sweet by and by they will develop the most delectable soup recipe. Is it soup yet. NO. Let me know when they figure it out, and start ladling it out.
post #1602 of 2847
My apologies for the earlier unpleasantness, if anyone was offended....even though I did use a smilieface....:rolleyes:
post #1603 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonhawk
My apologies for the earlier unpleasantness, if anyone was offended....even though I did use a smilieface....:rolleyes:
Wasn't me. :)
post #1604 of 2847
I just keep wondering if SED will ever take a substantial market share from current technology. Consider LCD for example.

In a bright showroom, LCD looks better than plasma due to glare reduction.
The same thing may happen with SED.
Just because SED will have 10,000 CR does not mean it will look better than LCD.
LCD may be at 2,000 CR static in a few years.
With anti-glare screens it will be hard to beat on the showroom floor.
Prices will be low as well.

SED will have to offer more than just great CR, since the CR will not be apparent at a BB or CC.
Will it be thinner, lighter than LCD ?
Will it be cheaper than LCD ?
Will it offer larger screen sizes, say >60" ?
post #1605 of 2847
By the time SED comes out for 5K Plasma and LCD will sell for 50 cents. The final obituary will read Too Great therefore Too Late!
post #1606 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by mark_1080p
I just keep wondering if SED will ever take a substantial market share from current technology. Consider LCD for example.

In a bright showroom, LCD looks better than plasma due to glare reduction.
The same thing may happen with SED.
Just because SED will have 10,000 CR does not mean it will look better than LCD.
LCD may be at 2,000 CR static in a few years.
With anti-glare screens it will be hard to beat on the showroom floor.
Prices will be low as well.

SED will have to offer more than just great CR, since the CR will not be apparent at a BB or CC.
Will it be thinner, lighter than LCD ?
Will it be cheaper than LCD ?
Will it offer larger screen sizes, say >60" ?
SED will have 100,000 static CR.

Apart from that I somewhat agree with your post, though. Reflections are known to be a problem for SED. Maybe the only problem, don't know. But it's definitely a problem for showroom floors. We'll have to wait and see whether other image quality advantages will be able to offset this disadvantage in showrooms. Or maybe Canon and Toshiba will find a way to reduce reflections. Something like Samsung's "FilterBright" technology might also work for SED displays.
post #1607 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood
By the time SED comes out for 5K Plasma and LCD will sell for 50 cents. The final obituary will read Too Great therefore Too Late!
I disagree. CRT tubes for example are cheap - 50 cents. Yet, people still pay more for 5K plasma. Plasma will one day be the equivalent of crt tubes today. People will still buy better technology for the premium. There is also always people with money.
post #1608 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ok2me
I disagree. CRT tubes for example are cheap - 50 cents. Yet, people still pay more for 5K plasma. Plasma will one day be the equivalent of crt tubes today. People will still buy better technology for the premium. There is also always people with money.
Maybe. How much of it is the new tech and how much of it is the fact that you don't have to add an addition to your house to have a 60"screen that is not Projection of some type?

I may be wrong but new tech is sexy and all but the fact that I can put a what I consider a large screen on the wall and free up floor space is about 40% of it for me.

Right now as I wait for what I think will be my Ultimate LCD TV to come out in Oct, I consider the fact that Plasma and LCD are both "Mature" technologies. For the most part the bugs have been found and worked out. There is still that Plasma burn in thing, but even that is better.

We have no idea what kind of "Bugs" if any SED will have when it is introduced. Tosh and Canon had better have most of them worked out before it hits the market. With the other techs out there, it will be easy for the consumer to say that "Johnny come lately is pretty, but he has problems and I will play it safe with a LCD or plasma"

Having said that, I agree that there are always people with allot of money that will buy because it is new.
post #1609 of 2847
What is this Ultimate LCD coming in Oct?

Bravia XBR?
post #1610 of 2847
TNG, people will not buy SED just because it's "new", but because it is better. There are already lots of "new" displays to choose.For SED to grab a niche in this high-end market, people will need to actually see or perceive to see an advantage in PQ of some sort, whether it be better colors, superior ANSI contrast, able to handle fast motion better, build quality, etc.

But you're dead right in stating that Toshiba/Canon better not have any serious bugs coming out of the starting gate as this will kill it for sure. Early Plasmas had a few serious bugs when they first came out and we're still hearing myths eminating from those early problems. Plasma had the advantage of a different climate due to little or no competition in flat panels, and were able to overcome the early obstacles. SED will not have this breathing room, and has waited waaay too long to enter this market in the first place.
post #1611 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNG
I consider the fact that Plasma and LCD are both "Mature" technologies. For the most part the bugs have been found and worked out. There is still that Plasma burn in thing, but even that is better.
Being that there are still a LOT of reasons a LOT of people won't buy plasma/LCD (myself included) I wouldn't say they're mature, perfected or otherwise "had all their bugs (or shortcomings) worked out. Are they improved and continuing to improve? Yes. But they're far from ideal and that, most of all beyond floor space, price or any minor initial bugs SED might have is why people will buy SED. Ideal picture AND form factor. That is of course if Tosh/Can can get their collective butss in gear :D
post #1612 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19
Being that there are still a LOT of reasons a LOT of people won't buy plasma/LCD (myself included) I wouldn't say they're mature, perfected or otherwise "had all their bugs (or shortcomings) worked out. Are they improved and continuing to improve? Yes. But they're far from ideal and that, most of all beyond floor space, price or any minor initial bugs SED might have is why people will buy SED. Ideal picture AND form factor. That is of course if Tosh/Can can get their collective butss in gear :D
If you're still using an older analog postage stamp size 27" CRT as your main viewer, then there is really only ONE REASON you're doing it....PRICE!! Plasma, LCD, SXRD (Lcos), etc. are really good displays, and you're really missing the boat waiting & waiting & waiting for that perfect display.
post #1613 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
If you're still using an older analog postage stamp size 27" CRT as your main viewer, then there is really only ONE REASON you're doing it....PRICE!! Plasma, LCD, SXRD (Lcos), etc. are really good displays, and you're really missing the boat waiting & waiting & waiting for that perfect display.
I have an HD 50" 16:9 Hitachi CRT RPTV ;)

And the only one I'll agree with you on is SXRD. The only digital display I've seen so far that comes close to CRT PQ :p
post #1614 of 2847
have to agree with you.Have owned 4 hd sets(1 was returned)lcd,lcdrptv,plasma and crtrptv is the best hands down,mine is also a hitachi
post #1615 of 2847
When will Bill Gates be able to buy the FIRST SED?
post #1616 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81
What is this Ultimate LCD coming in Oct?
Bravia XBR?
No Sony stuff. When I was in Japan (late last year) I saw a coworkers Sharp 45". Just bought it, brand new model, best PQ I had ever seen on a LCD, hands down. Checked to see if it was available here and they said the here it would be called the LC45D90U. Saved more money and waited.

The model was canceled by Sharp USA. Apparently a 46" with even better specs is coming out in Oct, and the model cycle for the 45" would be to short to invest in. Needless to say I was TICKED OFF, I had been waiting awhile. But I will wait partly because it was still the best PQ I have seen and for the reason he bought it.

His largest customers over the past few years have been Sharp and Samsung. He has been to the fabs (FABrication plants) and has seen the processes up close. It is his opinion that Sharp is far and away better than Samsung/Sony. Since he also holds several patents on the equipment he installs, sells and designs processes for, I trust him. Sometimes you have to be careful, because (and this wont sound PC) the Japanese and the Koreans do not as a habit like each other very much.

As I have said before I had hoped that there would be more choices by now (SED). As it is I can't wait another year for it.
post #1617 of 2847
Well Sharp does make a good LCD panel and if you HAVE to have a flat panel, with no SED on the market, Sharp LCD and Panny/Pioneer Plasma's would be on my short list. I still vote CRT though (or at the very least SXRD) :p ...lol
post #1618 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
If you're still using an older analog postage stamp size 27" CRT as your main viewer, then there is really only ONE REASON you're doing it....PRICE!! Plasma, LCD, SXRD (Lcos), etc. are really good displays, and you're really missing the boat waiting & waiting & waiting for that perfect display.
27" postage stamp!. Wow. What the hell size envelopes are you using?. You must have to work your saliva glands overtime to get the stamp licked. :D :p :p :D
post #1619 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by aud19
Well Sharp does make a good LCD panel and if you HAVE to have a flat panel, with no SED on the market, Sharp LCD and Panny/Pioneer Plasma's would be on my short list. I still vote CRT though (or at the very least SXRD) :p ...lol
CRT/SXRD have 2 problems I consider unacceptable.

1. SSE. Some CRT RPTV do not have this, like those old giant sized Pioneer Elites.
2. Misconvergence. Either panel/gun misalignment or spherical aberration causes this.

Real macropanels like Plasma, LCD, SED have PERFECT geometry, spatial subpixel separation/alignment. No projection I have ever seen is good enough.

I will say, though, if Sony would stop using the screens that produce the SSE, an SXRD would be a serious contender.

On the maturity of LCD flat panel, my bet is that it is still immature, i.e. that there are more major advances [in contrast ratio, response times, size, and price] to come. The front projector forum had a thread on a major advance coming in LCD front projectors using new materials that would yield SXRD class CR or more (BiNA6/C2fine) http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=627607 .

Mating LCD flat panels with advanced LED arrays could lighten, thin the displays further, perhaps to thicknesses rivaling SED.
post #1620 of 2847
Yes I consider LCD (FPD LCD at least) mature. Most offerings now are featuring sub 10ms response time and soon almost all of the panels out there mid range and above should offer 1080p. Color systems for the panels are getting better, and this is the area that could use some major work. LED's will help but there will be problems with that as well.

Besides the LED lighting which everybody wants, but may commend a large price tag for the first mass production, all other improvements in LCD and Plasma is more or less incremental. Yes there will be "New" things that hit and improve the panels as a whole, but most of the good panels out there have hit a plateau as far as improvment in the specs go.

Take right now. If the big 3 in LCD were to cut the response time of all their best panels in half, how much better would that be? An average of 3.5ms, 4ms? Better resolution? If you go beyond 1080, there is no material for it anyway.

Larger panels? There is a 65" LCD out there now, who can afford it? Also a larger truly monster plasma that is coming as well (read about it here on this forum, something I think over 100"). I don't have the room for it.

I think these tecnologies are mature, but not FPD technology itself. Truly new stuff coming all of the time. SED is just one of them. Something else I seen on this forum was some company in Canada has made a panel from all solid state materials, have a small scale production facility set up already. With money they could have it to market quicker than SED, maybe.

I think that FPD technology will see more new revolutions in the future. Always someone out there with a new idea.
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