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Official SED, Info, Discussion, Etc Thread!!! - Page 88  

post #2611 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
Are you saying when I watch some like Star Trek and Star Wars space will finally black? :p
Yes, but will we still hear the space ships explode when there is no atmosphere to carry the sound? :D
post #2612 of 2847
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rikie
My monitor shows the dude's pants as being a very bark blue and the ladies dress as being black.
Correct.

I had to max out the Brightness setting on my LCD monitor to discern the difference!
post #2613 of 2847
The blue in the black is a color cast introduced by the camera (the photo is not color-corrected). Both the pants and the dress should be black.
post #2614 of 2847
"Our monitors are probably incapable of displaying the kind of black SED is capable of. "

I have a sony kv-40xbr800 40" HD-CRT, and it has extremely deep blacks. When it's on and there is no picture being transmitted, it looks like it is off. The space on Star Trek looks very deep black. I haven't seen the actual specs on the XBR... but I can only guess they come very close to what SED promises. It really has an awesome picture.

I hope this gives me a taste of what SED will be like. I've been debating buying something else until SED comes out (PDP or Sony LCOS) since my Sony is a 4:3 that compresses to 16:9 for HD signals. Pretty much equals 37" wide screen. Although it's smaller that I ultimately want... the picture quality on my Sony blows EVERYTHING else away right now with all things considered, except it's one big mother. Weighs about 350 lbs.

So.......... I think I'll keep what I have until something that is really better comes along, or until it gives up the ghost.
post #2615 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
Our monitors are probably incapable of displaying the kind of black SED is capable of.
Well at work i have a CRT monitor ... so it should be able to show SED CRT-like blacks :D
post #2616 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by pduncan
"Our monitors are probably incapable of displaying the kind of black SED is capable of. "

I have a sony kv-40xbr800 40" HD-CRT, and it has extremely deep blacks. When it's on and there is no picture being transmitted, it looks like it is off. The space on Star Trek looks very deep black. I haven't seen the actual specs on the XBR... but I can only guess they come very close to what SED promises. It really has an awesome picture.

I hope this gives me a taste of what SED will be like. I've been debating buying something else until SED comes out (PDP or Sony LCOS) since my Sony is a 4:3 that compresses to 16:9 for HD signals. Pretty much equals 37" wide screen. Although it's smaller that I ultimately want... the picture quality on my Sony blows EVERYTHING else away right now with all things considered, except it's one big mother. Weighs about 350 lbs.

So.......... I think I'll keep what I have until something that is really better comes along, or until it gives up the ghost.
I too own the 1080i CRT Sony 40XBR and it's been an excellent TV. When I purchased this $3000 Baby Huey in late Dec. 2002, my choices were a bit limited as 50" Pioneer Elites were selling for $15,000, there were no decent LCD's of size, price & acceptable PQ, and I did not want a RPTV. The 40XBR seemed a perfect choice to endure the "broadcast transition" period, which still plagues us to this day, and still be able to enjoy HDTV on the 37" 16:9 screen.

Well, times have changed dramatically from nearly 4 years ago, and all competing video techs have vastly improved while pricing has been dropping like a rock. If I were to choose a display right now, the situation would be much more difficult. I definitely would not hold off several years if I were upgrading from an older analog TV to HDTV. You are just missing waaaaay too much and life is short. The new 1080p 50" Plasma display from Pioneer will literally knock your socks off, as will other top tier Plasmas even at their lower rez. You will also experience a clean, clear, crisp, razor sharp pic w/eye- popping colors that'll have you scooping your jaw off the floor. Another experience that the 40XBR does NOT have but I've seen many times when demoing top tier Plasma TV's is total complete elevation in the viewing experience to a more 3D "looking through the window" effect never before achieved by any Tube TV, including my own beloved 40XBR.

If you're waiting for SED, it'll be late 2008 before you'll even have the opportunity to be an "Early Adopter" w/a niche high-end pricing that'll give you a blue face from sticker shock. For a more affordable...AND reliable SED it will around 2012 for all you fence sitters out there in TV land. That's a long damn time to wait before upgrading to a nice HDTV. Thinkaboutit.
post #2617 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
I too own the 1080i CRT Sony 40XBR and it's been an excellent TV. When I purchased this $3000 Baby Huey in late Dec. 2002, my choices were a bit limited as 50" Pioneer Elites were selling for $15,000, there were no decent LCD's of size, price & acceptable PQ, and I did not want a RPTV. The 40XBR seemed a perfect choice to endure the "broadcast transition" period, which still plagues us to this day, and still be able to enjoy HDTV on the 37" 16:9 screen.

Well, times have changed dramatically from nearly 4 years ago, and all competing video techs have vastly improved while pricing has been dropping like a rock. If I were to choose a display right now, the situation would be much more difficult. I definitely would not hold off several years if I were upgrading from an older analog TV to HDTV. You are just missing waaaaay too much and life is short. The new 1080p 50" Plasma display from Pioneer will literally knock your socks off, as will other top tier Plasmas even at their lower rez. You will also experience a clean, clear, crisp, razor sharp pic w/eye- popping colors that'll have you scooping your jaw off the floor. Another experience that the 40XBR does NOT have but I've seen many times when demoing top tier Plasma TV's is total complete elevation in the viewing experience to a more 3D "looking through the window" effect never before achieved by any Tube TV, including my own beloved 40XBR.

If you're waiting for SED, it'll be late 2008 before you'll even have the opportunity to be an "Early Adopter" w/a niche high-end pricing that'll give you a blue face from sticker shock. For a more affordable...AND reliable SED it will around 2012 for all you fence sitters out there in TV land. That's a long damn time to wait before upgrading to a nice HDTV. Thinkaboutit.

But why spend 10k (MSRP, which is allowed on the AVS forum) for a Pioneer Plasma. 1080p has not benefit on a 50 inch display. When SED comes out Pioneer and others asking for 10-15K for 1080p plasmas and LCD's won't be able to justify those prices. Who would want to buy a plasma for 10K when SED is coming.

Again, save that money keep your current set or buy something not too expensive while you are waiting for SED.
post #2618 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
But why spend 10k (MSRP, which is allowed on the AVS forum) for a Pioneer Plasma. 1080p has not benefit on a 50 inch display. When SED comes out Pioneer and others asking for 10-15K for 1080p plasmas and LCD's won't be able to justify those prices. Who would want to buy a plasma for 10K when SED is coming.

Again, save that money keep your current set or buy something not too expensive while you are waiting for SED.
Again...MUCH misinformation. The VERY BEST 1080p 50" Plasma on the planet is now street pricing WELL below $10,000 (which is the meaningless Pioneer MSRP). By the time SED makes it to our happy shores in late 2008, Plasma prices will have dropped at least 40%, and will have had 2 more generations of improved video tech. After it's all said & done, we could end up w/competing video techs of SED, LCD & Plasma that have hardly a smidgeon of PQ difference between the three.
post #2619 of 2847
Decisions, decisions, decisons.....
post #2620 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Again...MUCH misinformation. The VERY BEST 1080p 50" Plasma on the planet is now street pricing WELL below $10,000 (which is the meaningless Pioneer MSRP). By the time SED makes it to our happy shores in late 2008, Plasma prices will have dropped at least 40%, and will have had 2 more generations of improved video tech. After it's all said & done, we could end up w/competing video techs of SED, LCD & Plasma that have hardly a smidgeon of PQ difference between the three.
In addition: Pioneer is demonstrating a 60inch Plasma with a 20,000 to 1 contrast ratio at CEATEC. They are showing it in a side to side comparison with their existing 3,000 to 1 contrast panels. Check it out at engadget.com

The more competition the better for us consumers.
post #2621 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenland
In addition: Pioneer is demonstrating a 60inch Plasma with a 20,000 to 1 contrast ratio at CEATEC. They are showing it in a side to side comparison with their existing 3,000 to 1 contrast panels. Check it out at engadget.com
Looks good! But how good/bad is false contouring?
post #2622 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Looks good! But how good/bad is false contouring?
Hard to say. Those who are making the observations are basing their judgements on the posted images, and have not actually seen the display in person. I am sure, that Pioneer still has a ways to go in bringing the components performance up to speed to synch completely with the latest panels. We will have to wait and see if it proves to be a significant improvement, just like we will have to do so with SED.

At least Pioneer is claiming to be making considerable improvement to the contrast ratios. How it manifests itself when the panels actually are available, only time will tell, which also applies to SED.
post #2623 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
Again...MUCH misinformation. The VERY BEST 1080p 50" Plasma on the planet is now street pricing WELL below $10,000 (which is the meaningless Pioneer MSRP). By the time SED makes it to our happy shores in late 2008, Plasma prices will have dropped at least 40%, and will have had 2 more generations of improved video tech. After it's all said & done, we could end up w/competing video techs of SED, LCD & Plasma that have hardly a smidgeon of PQ difference between the three.
Worth nothing that today's MSRPs for 65-inch, mainstream-brand models are $10,000 -- Panasonic and Sharp. If those prices fell by 20% per year the next 2 years, they'd be ~$6,500.

For some brief period of time, sony tiny quantity of Sharp 65" LCDs were sold at $20,000.

I'm not sure how relevant any of this is, but it's context.

As for your final remark, I can't agree more. The new 20K:1 contrast demo from Pioneer shows the impressive "blackness" many seek... LCD moves towards modulated backlight... and so it goes. Again, if you read back 3 years or so, you'll find I and many others explaining the certainty that the moving target of quality would move. And so it goes.
post #2624 of 2847
Will Panasonic and Sharp really give up the $10k price point?

As for the Pioneer, yeah the blacks were blacker but at least the pics posted on Engadget, not sure the higher-contrast panel PQ was necessarily better.
post #2625 of 2847
If nothing else we now know that SED has likely opened Pioneer's eyes to the importance of black levels since their new plasma panels are supposed to be released around the 2008 Olympics. SED may be too expensive at first but hopefully a 60" plasma panel with deep black levels will be somewhat affordable to tide us over in the mean time :p .
post #2626 of 2847
Quote:
Plasma prices will have dropped at least 40%, and will have had 2 more generations of improved video tech
By then the Pio won't be the best display on the planet. And now the question is would you still buy a Pio with SED months away?
post #2627 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032
If nothing else we now know that SED has likely opened Pioneer's eyes to the importance of black levels since their new plasma panels are supposed to be released around the 2008 Olympics. SED may be too expensive at first but hopefully a 60" plasma panel with deep black levels will be somewhat affordable to tide us over in the mean time :p .
I agree you really have to applaud Pioneer for pushing the envelope with Plasma display technology even if it is in response to the SED sets.
post #2628 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo
The new 20K:1 contrast demo from Pioneer shows the impressive "blackness" many seek... LCD moves towards modulated backlight... and so it goes.
It seems like the more research I do into new display technologies, the more confident I get about the ultimate superiority of LED backlit LCDs over everything else, including SED.

With recent and remarkable advances in LED technology (already 131 lm/W in the lab) that just keep on coming, diminishing costs, and advances in backlight systems being applied to the well-known LCD technology, it's going to be hard to stop LED-LCDs from taking over the market and soon.

Samsung is already showing its new LED-LCD LE40M91 (10000:1 contrast, 145% color gamut) which is already in plasma territory or better. Plus the price they announced was quite reasonable. And that's only the beginning.

When these LCDs start coming with individually modulated led backlights (that is, more efficient, brighter, and cheaper leds), these displays will have pretty much infinite contrast (if you divide by 0, that is, pure blacks), few K's of brightness and exceptional color. In other words, these things will have it all.

2008 promises to be a fascinating year. I will definitely not buy anything new before the SED vs. IMLED LCD battle plays out.
post #2629 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
By then the Pio won't be the best display on the planet. And now the question is would you still buy a Pio with SED months away?
How much will each cost?

Bruce
post #2630 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wojtek
Holy smokes, the black levels on this thing do look promising.

Look at the dude's black pants, how similar in darkness they are to the screen's black border.

Same with the woman's dress on the left.

On my Panny 8UK the blacks GLOW when compared to the screen's black border.
MAN it feels good to be back on hte thread whats up everyone hows the talk going? anyting new that i missed or just talk ? more pioctures woudl be great .... :)
post #2631 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms
It seems like the more research I do into new display technologies, the more confident I get about the ultimate superiority of LED backlit LCDs over everything else, including SED.

With recent and remarkable advances in LED technology (already 131 lm/W in the lab) that just keep on coming, diminishing costs, and advances in backlight systems being applied to the well-known LCD technology, it's going to be hard to stop LED-LCDs from taking over the market and soon.

Samsung is already showing its new LED-LCD LE40M91 (10000:1 contrast, 145% color gamut) which is already in plasma territory or better. Plus the price they announced was quite reasonable. And that's only the beginning.

When these LCDs start coming with individually modulated led backlights (that is, more efficient, brighter, and cheaper leds), these displays will have pretty much infinite contrast (if you divide by 0, that is, pure blacks), few K's of brightness and exceptional color. In other words, these things will have it all.

2008 promises to be a fascinating year. I will definitely not buy anything new before the SED vs. IMLED LCD battle plays out.
Back light improvements are not good enough. It still has to shine through those slow liquid crystals...
post #2632 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by S. Hiller
Back light improvements are not good enough. It still has to shine through those slow liquid crystals...
With specs like that, these displays will be more than good enough (near perfect) for me and almost anyone else.
post #2633 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032
If nothing else we now know that SED has likely opened Pioneer's eyes to the importance of black levels since their new plasma panels are supposed to be released around the 2008 Olympics. SED may be too expensive at first but hopefully a 60" plasma panel with deep black levels will be somewhat affordable to tide us over in the mean time :p .
And as black levels continue to improve on plasmas, it will take away the major selling point of SEDs! Afterall, do we 'really' need a super-bright, sun-like image? I turn down the brightness of my Fujitsu plasmas now, so added brightness would never get my dollars. To me it's all about blacks at this point and I'll bet there will be very little difference between the blacks of the better plasmas at the time SEDs are released and the SEDs themselves....probably not nearly enough to justify their pricetags! :)
post #2634 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
By then the Pio won't be the best display on the planet. And now the question is would you still buy a Pio with SED months away?
You surely would if you needed a large screen on the order of 60"-65", since SEDs will not be in the 60"+ size for quite awhile. You also would if the black levels on the new Pioneer is not much higher than SEDs. You also would if you can't begin to see how the price tag of initial SEDs could be justified. Those are just some that come to mind in a few seconds.
post #2635 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by vtms
It seems like the more research I do into new display technologies, the more confident I get about the ultimate superiority of LED backlit LCDs over everything else, including SED.
Hmm, I think I heard people saying the same thing about the Sony 46" Qualia LCD that was released a couple of years ago with LED backlighting. Having seen that set several times, I can attest to the fact that the blacks and dark scenes were still very 'muddy' with the lights down or out. That was a very short-lived set in Sony's high end lineup. So I'm not convinced that LED backlighting will be the answer either. Of course it's entirely possible that advances in this technology will have improved.
post #2636 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
And as black levels continue to improve on plasmas, it will take away the major selling point of SEDs!
Black level is only one selling point of SEDs. Brightness is not a selling point, btw. Further selling points are:

- no digital artefacts whatsoever (false contouring, dithering, posterization etc)
- no motion smearing whatsoever
- nearly perfect viewing angles
- low power consumption
- almost perfect fill rate
- very low noise image
- excellent shadow detail even in the deepest blacks

Some of these are fulfilled by plasmas, some are not (yet?). The key point is that SED is promising to do all of the above in combination. I'm not sure whether plasma/LCD will have reached that PQ level when SEDs are finally available. We'll have to wait and see. I doubt it.
post #2637 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Black level is only one selling point of SEDs. Brightness is not a selling point, btw. Further selling points are:

- no digital artefacts whatsoever (false contouring, dithering, posterization etc)
- no motion smearing whatsoever
- nearly perfect viewing angles
- low power consumption
- almost perfect fill rate
- very low noise image
- excellent shadow detail even in the deepest blacks

Some of these are fulfilled by plasmas, some are not (yet?). The key point is that SED is promising to do all of the above in combination. I'm not sure whether plasma/LCD will have reached that PQ level when SEDs are finally available. We'll have to wait and see. I doubt it.
i doublt that too that lcd/plasma will get that much , way i see it is that they are going to invest n invest and wont get near sed , sed is so promising it just has been delyed because of some issues but im glad they are taking their time....
post #2638 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Black level is only one selling point of SEDs. Brightness is not a selling point, btw.
Is SED subject to the same problem as plasma/CRT regarding daytime viewing? It would be nice to see another FP display, other than LCD, become available that can be viewed during the day.
post #2639 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross
You surely would if you needed a large screen on the order of 60"-65", since SEDs will not be in the 60"+ size for quite awhile. You also would if the black levels on the new Pioneer is not much higher than SEDs. You also would if you can't begin to see how the price tag of initial SEDs could be justified. Those are just some that come to mind in a few seconds.
In addition: Plasmas have an established development history which offers consumers a confidence baseline, which SED has yet to establish. Several generations of plasma history versus none for SED will keep SED an early adopters only item for the next few years.
post #2640 of 2847
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi
Black level is only one selling point of SEDs. Brightness is not a selling point, btw. Further selling points are:

- no digital artefacts whatsoever (false contouring, dithering, posterization etc)
- no motion smearing whatsoever
- nearly perfect viewing angles
- low power consumption
- almost perfect fill rate
- very low noise image
- excellent shadow detail even in the deepest blacks

Some of these are fulfilled by plasmas, some are not (yet?). The key point is that SED is promising to do all of the above in combination. I'm not sure whether plasma/LCD will have reached that PQ level when SEDs are finally available. We'll have to wait and see. I doubt it.
"The key point is that SED is promising to do all of the above in combination". The key is that it is in only the promise stage. A lot of promises never get realized.

Harsh reality always suffers in comparison to imagined future perfection.
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