|Originally posted by LeeAntin:
I think that you and I keep having this discussion and I keep making my point and you keep ignoring it.
I don't think so. We may have a misunderstanding, but I'm listening to what you're saying.
Lets AGAIN make some assumptions about the 921 PVR:
1. It will use the 5C Copy protection plan.
2. It will have Analog HD Outputs.
Addressing #1; two out of the three copy "flags" allow a copy to be made. Only the third..."Copy Never" will disallow the PVR to work and we HAVE agreed in the past, that this CN flag will be used for PPV and special events.
But programming like HBO, Showtime, HDnet, all OTA and additions like Discovery, etc will not use the CN flag due to either their age in the life of a movie, or by the fact that there are commerical inturreptions.
Premium subscriptions channels (HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, etc) cannot be marked "Copy Never" because the DTCP Adopter's Agreement says that only prerecorded media and pay-per-single-viewing broadcasts may be marked that way. Also, there are four "flags": "Copy Never", "Copy One Generation", "Copy No More" (marked on a copy of "Copy One Generation" data) and "Copy Freely".
Point #2; In the 1394/5C/DTCP plan, the crippling of Analog outputs is not like the DVI/HDCP plan which says...no DVI connection...no HDTV.
I defy you to find such a "plan" written anywhere. The developers of DVI/HDCP have stated that they did not intend it to be the sole copy-protected connection in an A/V network; they always intended for it to be used along with 1394/DTCP or something else which could be recorded. The DTCP Adopter's Agreement was extended to allow the transmission of decrypted data over DVI/HDCP connections, an endorsement of DVI/HDCP by the DTLA. DVI is just a somewhat cheaper connection to implement in the display, since the display doesn't have to be able to decode MPEG-2 to use it. In this press release
published in the online EETimes, one of the developers of DVI/HDCP, Silicon Image (the other was Intel, also one of the developers of 1394/DTCP) makes the following statement:
|DVI/HDCP protects content but does not preempt consumer rights to record or time-shift video content for personal use. DVI/HDCP does not impact the and functionality of upstream devices such as personal video recorders or digital VCRs, which are independent of the DVI connection to the HDTV.
The point that I think that you
keep missing is that, in an DTCP compliant device with analog outputs, any
level of copy-protected material, be it "Copy Never", "Copy One Generation" or "Copy No More" must
be down-res'd for display through the HD analog outputs. "Copy One Generation" and "Copy No More" may have flags inserted that override this--per the Agreement, such flags must be used if the content contains commercial interruptions. On point, from the Agreement:
|4.3 High Definition Analog Output. Licensed Products shall not pass Decrypted DT Data to a High Definition Analog Output, except as set forth in this Section 4.3:
4.3.1 Licensed Products may pass Decrypted DT Data to a High Definition Analog Output as a Constrained Image.
4.3.2 Licensed Products that recognize and respond to the Image Constraint Token in accordance with the Specification may pass Decrypted DT Data to an output in High Definition Analog Form when authorized by the setting of the Image Constraint Token.
4.3.3 Licensed Products incorporated into Computer Products may pass Copy One Generation or No More Copies Decrypted DT Data without image constraint to SVGA (1024x768 and greater), XGA(1024x768), SXGA and UXGA or similar computer video outputs that were widely implemented as of May 1, 2001 (but not to such typical consumer electronics outputs as NTSC, PAL, SECAM, SCART, YUV, S-Video and consumer RGB, whether or not such outputs are found on any Computer Product) in High Definition Analog Form for devices manufactured prior to December 31, 2005, unless otherwise
notified by DTLA.
4.3.4 Licensed Products may pass Decrypted DT Data in High Definition Analog Form to a High Definition Analog Output where such Decrypted DT Data is encoded Copy Freely.
|I am not looking to archive HDTV...just timeshift it. And I am sure that IF the above holds true than this unit might have a 1394 output to allow archiving the programming on one of these new DVHS HD VCR's and IF that was the case then the 5C copy flag would move from the PVR into the VCR, again preserving the flag.
Doesn't matter whether you're storing the HD video on removeable media or not: if it's in any way copy-protected, without over-riding Image Constraint Tokens, upon display through HD analog outputs, it must be image constrained. The whole point is to prevent it from being recorded in full HD from those analog outputs, using a W-VHS deck or something better.
The content providers aren't obligated to apply copy-protection to anything, but I'm assuming that, if copy-protection comes into common use, they will apply it to everything the Agreement allows them to apply it to. That means that all non-commercial-interrupted television that you pay a premium to subscribe to (more or less just the movie channels--HBO, Showtime, Cinemax, TMC, Starz and possibly Encore) will be marked "Copy One Generation" and all pay-per-view and video-on-demand, etc will be marked "Copy Never" and won't be recordable at all (though PVRs will be able to retain it for a period of time for pause and other "trick play" effects). If I'm reading the DTCP Adopter's Agreement correctly, everything else must be marked "Copy Freely" (or will be have Image Constraint Tokens) and you will be able to view it in full HD through the analog HD outputs of a DTCP compliant recorder.
-- Mike Scott
[This message has been edited by michaeltscott (edited 09-12-2001).]