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Battlestar Galactica on SciFi HD - Season 4 - Page 24

post #691 of 10191
I'm with swamp. As much as I like Boomer & Chief & Helo - from the proper perspective, the military should prosecute Chief & Helo. The last message the leaders want to send to the fleet, particularly the military, is that these robots should be given sympathy. They are machines, built by machines who are single-minded of purpose - they want the complete destruction of all mankind - and they damn near accomplished their goal with absolutely no warning.

If they were "enlightened", they surely would have sent one of many of their "human" copies to that ambassadors ship to try and open up a dialogue instead of launching an all out war. Capture them, find out what makes them tick, and kill them - unless you can manipulate them somehow. Don't let your guard down, and certainly do not place the life and welfare of the robots on par with the humans.

How would you suggest handling the same situation here on Earth if another species was able to accomplish the same thing (and weren't as hot looking as Boomer & #6)

Having said that, I'm glad they did what they did and are getting away with it. After all, the Cylons haven't messed with us yet.
post #692 of 10191
I also agree that there is no question that the death was accidental at most the punishment would be some short confinement and a reduction in rank.

Honestly, I viewed the Admiral's conduct in this matter a bit puzzling. She had to impress civilians to fill out her own crew but decides to summarily execute 2 crewmen because some beloved interrogator gets killed. Who was more valuable to the survival of the fleet, a crack Chief of the Deck or some thug who likes to rape Cylons? You make the call!

As she said this is war and tough decisions had to be made. The tough call would have been to put them back on duty for the good of the Fleet and take the heat from her own crew for doing so instead of execution. This was a different situation from her earlier "tough decisions".

The execution of the first XO was for disobeying a direct order while the execution of families was done to get the people she needed to keep fighting against the Cylons. Though both calls were reprehensible at least in her mind she was doing what she thought was right to keep her ship in the "game". The execution of Helo and the Chief would serve only to seek revenge and piss off Adama.
post #693 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

I also agree that there is no question that the death was accidental at most the punishment would be some short confinement and a reduction in rank.

Not exactly a gun going off while cleaning it type of accident. His death was the direct result of a deliberate assault.
post #694 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Not exactly a gun going off while cleaning it type of accident. His death was the direct result of a deliberate assault.

Understood, but again his "intent" was prevent the rape not to kill the guy. Anyway Helo would be guilty of what exactly?


You know an interesting follow up to this would be what if someone kills a Cylon in an act of premeditated murder but doesn't know that that person was a Cylon until after the fact? Now that would be interesting!
post #695 of 10191
I view this almost the complete opposite as you.
I don't really remember or know if we know very many details of the XO incident. But even threatening let alone actually killing someones family who doesn't want to be in the military is beyond reprehensible, and I don't think the people they press into service this way would be very reliable.
But Helo and the Chiefs actions directly led to the death of a fellow officer at a time of war and it appears that what she did was within her authority, it was certainly in the presidents authority to space a cylon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

I also agree that there is no question that the death was accidental at most the punishment would be some short confinement and a reduction in rank.

Honestly, I viewed the Admiral's conduct in this matter a bit puzzling. She had to impress civilians to fill out her own crew but decides to summarily execute 2 crewmen because some beloved interrogator gets killed. Who was more valuable to the survival of the fleet, a crack Chief of the Deck or some thug who likes to rape Cylons? You make the call!

As she said this is war and tough decisions had to be made. The tough call would have been to put them back on duty for the good of the Fleet and take the heat from her own crew for doing so instead of execution. This was a different situation from her earlier "tough decisions".

The execution of the first XO was for disobeying a direct order while the execution of families was done to get the people she needed to keep fighting against the Cylons. Though both calls were reprehensible at least in her mind she was doing what she thought was right to keep her ship in the "game". The execution of Helo and the Chief would serve only to seek revenge and piss off Adama.
post #696 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

You know an interesting follow up to this would be what if someone kills a Cylon in an act of premeditated murder but doesn't know that that person was a Cylon until after the fact? Now that would be interesting!

Not murder.
post #697 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by paudemge View Post

I view this almost the complete opposite as you.
I don't really remember or know if we know very many details of the XO incident. But even threatening let alone actually killing someones family who doesn't want to be in the military is beyond reprehensible, and I don't think the people they press into service this way would be very reliable.
But Helo and the Chiefs actions directly led to the death of a fellow officer at a time of war and it appears that what she did was within her authority, it was certainly in the presidents authority to space a cylon.

Actually, I was't questioning her authority. This is war! Her decision to execute them seems a bit out of character based on previous decisions.

And as far as the impress civilians, the episode showed that the civilian deck chief was not made of the same stuff as the Chief. She would have certainly have known this. It would have made more sense for her character to want someone capable of keeping her Vipers flying above all else!
post #698 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamphhh View Post

I have formed a fairly rigid opinion of the Cylons. I see them as machines, toasters if you will, that have committed planetary genocide several times over and are not entitled to any moral or legal protections. We can only estimate numbers, but they have killed probably tens of billions. I guess I can see how one misguided human can come to belive in their humanity but I fail to see how a group, as in the fleet, will see them that way. I want to smack Baltar sometimes when he hears Six whining about the deaths of thousands of Cylons after they have killed Billions of humans.

Two opinions:
- As soon as there is a possibility that some [creature/creation] can change its behavioral pattern to something acceptable, they should be afforded the right to do so and survive (in the global sense). When they can reason independently they should be considered a [being] (with greater rights) and not an animal/machine. When a such a [being] will not behave in an acceptable manner, they should be treated no different than a human sociopath. Some creatures are too dangerous to live in social environments. Some motivated creatures are too dangerous to allow freedom or life. Determining the 'line' defining acceptable behavior between tyranny and anarchy is the grail of civilization.
- The acceptability of coercion of any type (torture, manipulation, etc.) against any type of [creature] should be carefully examined and vetted because the act can shift or skew what is considered acceptable for other types in the actor or viewers. While some can maintain distinctions and ethics, not everyone can; and in groups, people are generally worse than individuals.

The CPO and LT should probably be reduced, confined, and set to labor (making more Vipers). With an unquestioned enemy and a total-war effort, the Fleet probably has a better chance at setting conditions to rehabilitate more of the civilian prisoners than we do with our penal system.

Killing a Colonial without knowledge it was a cylon would be "attempted murder", the same as if we set up a sting for a sniper with a fake target here.

v/r,
C-F
post #699 of 10191
Putting the Chief in charge after he killed one of her officers would cause such discontent that the Chief would be ineffective at his job. It would also be extremely out of character for ADM Kane.
post #700 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Putting the Chief in charge after he killed one of her officers would cause such discontent that the Chief would be ineffective at his job. It would also be extremely out of character for ADM Kane.

Why? The attack took place on the Galactica not the Pegasus. THe people that work the deck of the Galactica were his people. He could have stil done his job.

Why exactly would it have been out of character for her????
post #701 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post

- As soon as there is a possibility that some [creature/creation] can change its behavioral pattern to something acceptable, they should be afforded the right to do so and survive (in the global sense).

I don't consider a machine (even with some human characteristics) that was designed to kill all humans - and they have continued towards that goal - to have an "acceptable pattern of behavior".
post #702 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

Why? The attack took place on the Galactica not the Pegasus. THe people that work the deck of the Galactica were his people. He could have stil done his job.

Why exactly would it have been out of character for her????

You're assuming that she would not want her leadership philosophy to extend to all personnel under her command. She would not perform her duties with two separate styles to accomodate the Pegasus and Galactica as separate entities. People talk.

As fas as being out of character, she is a hardass disciplinarian who believes in blind loyalty to the chain of command or there are severe consequences. Giving them a pass for killing one of her officers would not fit with her previous actions at all.
post #703 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

You're assuming that she would not want her leadership philosophy to extend to all personnel under her command. She would not perform her duties with two separate styles to accomodate the Pegasus and Galactica as separate entities. People talk.

As fas as being out of character, she is a hardass disciplinarian who believes in blind loyalty to the chain of command or there are severe consequences. Giving them a pass for killing one of her officers would not fit with her previous actions at all.

In her previous actions, she stripped whatever resources she could find to help her ship! Do you think that she would discard a valuable resource because people "talked." It didn't keep people from talking when she killed her XO, and those families. It didn't stop the scuttlebutt about abandoning the civilian fleet she had.

Your right, she was a hardass and all but she would have not killed them unless of course she was really a Cylon after all
post #704 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post

Two opinions:
- As soon as there is a possibility that some [creature/creation] can change its behavioral pattern to something acceptable, they should be afforded the right to do so and survive (in the global sense). When they can reason independently they should be considered a [being] (with greater rights) and not an animal/machine. When a such a [being] will not behave in an acceptable manner, they should be treated no different than a human sociopath. Some creatures are too dangerous to live in social environments. Some motivated creatures are too dangerous to allow freedom or life. Determining the 'line' defining acceptable behavior between tyranny and anarchy is the grail of civilization.
- The acceptability of coercion of any type (torture, manipulation, etc.) against any type of [creature] should be carefully examined and vetted because the act can shift or skew what is considered acceptable for other types in the actor or viewers. While some can maintain distinctions and ethics, not everyone can; and in groups, people are generally worse than individuals.


The CPO and LT should probably be reduced, confined, and set to labor (making more Vipers). With an unquestioned enemy and a total-war effort, the Fleet probably has a better chance at setting conditions to rehabilitate more of the civilian prisoners than we do with our penal system.

Killing a Colonial without knowledge it was a cylon would be "attempted murder", the same as if we set up a sting for a sniper with a fake target here.

v/r,
C-F

Well put, I agree 100%.
post #705 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

Do you think that she would discard a valuable resource because people "talked."

No, you don't kill him because people talk - you kill him because he killed one of your "valuable resources". If you don't, you leave it in each individual's hands to determine what resources are worth saving and which ones are worth killing. That's a power Kane would prefer to keep to herself.

One step back - two steps forward.
post #706 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Well put, I agree 100%.

Remind me never to put you in charge of the survival of the human race.
post #707 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I don't consider a machine (even with some human characteristics) that was designed to kill all humans - and they have continued towards that goal - to have an "acceptable pattern of behavior".

I think you are looking at it being a black and white, on or off situation. The Cylons are clearly not 100% machines as in our definition of a machine: metal, electronics, they certainly have a degree of flesh and blood type physiology and they also have the ability of self-awareness, which is clearly not a machine-like attribute.

What would you call a human with prosthetics and a pace maker...a human, or a machine...?
post #708 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Remind me never to put you in charge of the survival of the human race.

post #709 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

No, you don't kill him because people talk - you kill him because he killed one of your "valuable resources". If you don't, you leave it in each individual's hands to determine what resources are worth saving and which ones are worth killing. That's a power Kane would prefer to keep to herself.

One step back - two steps forward.

Valuable? He sure wasn't very valuable as a Cylon interrogator! Exactly what info did he acquire with his interrogation methods? Nada.
post #710 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

Valuable? He sure wasn't very valuable as a Cylon interrogator! Exactly what info did he acquire with his interrogation methods? Nada.

Exactly, but he sure felt she was more "human" than "machine", would he have tried the same stunt with one of the toasters..?
post #711 of 10191
Maybe with a rubber - or some other non-conductive material.
post #712 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

It would also be extremely out of character for ADM Kane.

It's not Kane, it's Cain! With a "C", like in Cylon. (And no, I don't believe Cain was a Cylon; let's not go there.)
post #713 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I think you are looking at it being a black and white, on or off situation. The Cylons are clearly not 100% machines as in our definition of a machine: metal, electronics, they certainly have a degree of flesh and blood type physiology and they also have the ability of self-awareness, which is clearly not a machine-like attribute.

What would you call a human with prosthetics and a pace maker...a human, or a machine...?

If you woke up tomorrow and cockroaches had become self-aware, could speak, and had annihilated over 6 billion humans while you slept (all but 50,000). Then throughout the next week, you watched cockroaches kill even more humans whenever they came in contact with them.

Then they told you specifically that they would not stop hunting you and your family down until you were all dead - what "human rights" protections would you like to see what's left of the Congress (silver lining? ) pass into law? And should it be illegal to just step on a cockroach whenever you see one?

I won't even touch on the rape scenario because if you ever catch some sick ba$tard $crewing a cockroach, he deserves a bolt in the head.
post #714 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by zmeister View Post

, a crack Chief of the Deck or some thug who likes to rape Cylons? You make the call!

Lt. Thorne seemed to be well more than "some thug". It was begining to sound in the last episode like Thorne saved the life of everybody on the Pegasus at one time or another. As for the intel, breaking the will of that number six Cylon is in and of itself good intel. Now they know that they can break the artificial psychology of a Cylon. And remember, he was acting under orders and the authority of Cain to extract information from the Cylon Device. Using a technique that was sactioned under his command and, since Sharon was a Cylon, not prohibited under the colonial equivilent of the UCMJ or legal code.

As people have pointed out, they have spaced cylons without due process and in the first episode left one that was mearly suspected to die on that station. Callie kills the first Sharon and its nothing but improper discharge of a firearm. From the point of view of the world that the show is in, Thornes "techniques" are not improper and his death is unjustified.
post #715 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I think you are looking at it being a black and white, on or off situation. The Cylons are clearly not 100% machines as in our definition of a machine: metal, electronics, they certainly have a degree of flesh and blood type physiology and they also have the ability of self-awareness, which is clearly not a machine-like attribute.

What would you call a human with prosthetics and a pace maker...a human, or a machine...?

Just what exactly makes a cylon tick? Processor or (flesh & blood) human brain(?)
post #716 of 10191
A clock? Tourette's? I give up.
post #717 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by rezzy View Post

Just what exactly makes a cylon tick? Processor or (flesh & blood) human brain(?)

Not enough facts in evidence yet to make a determination. Could be one of the above, both or it could be neither.

What makes a human "tick"..?
post #718 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post

A clock? Tourette's? I give up.

post #719 of 10191
Quote:


Just what exactly makes a cylon tick? Processor or (flesh & blood) human brain(?)

Precisely ... remember that the Cylon spine glows red when aroused and stimulated. that's either mechanical or chemical lumenesence ... perhaps tests need to be done on that.

Too many posters fail to think of decisions in the mindset and psyche of one in the BSG universe. Take the rape thing from a few episodes back ... too many people are all caught up on "oh rape is such a horrible thing" ... but remember well the words of Col Fisk who says "you can't rape a machine" ... and that's precisely it ... you can't rape a machine.

If you can't murder one (think Cally) then you sure as poop can't rape one.

So - what do we do in terms of continuity with Helo and Chief?

1. They got into a fight with an officer in a time of war. (And Fisk said that has a most severe penality on Pegasus).
2. During this fight, someone was killed.
3. Since you can't rape a machine, LT Thorne's methods were quite lawful.

These guys CANNOT go back to regular duty as if all is well. THEY KILLED A MAN

They need:

1. A trial.
2. A guilty verdict.
3. A sentence .. and if you want to be sympathetic fine - but they need reduction in rank, loss of any command they might have had, and a good helping of hard labor or other crap duty.,

we'll have to see how RDM writes this up in forthcoming episodes.

(my thanks to swamphhh for the invitation to avs forums to comment on this thread)
post #720 of 10191
Welcome to the forum.

This wouldn't even be a debate if the Cylons weren't so hot looking. If they were the cockroaches from my previous example people would be grabbing for their cans of Raid.
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