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Battlestar Galactica on SciFi HD - Season 4 - Page 332

post #9931 of 10191
You took the words right out of my mouth archi.

And at the same time I can understand why some people didn't like the show after the first season and a half-ish. It really did change quite a bit. I mean, how many people would have predicted that the show would turn into a courtroom drama for 3 episodes? I found it to be expertly written and acted and loved every second of it, but that's not necessarily what people signed up for after watching the first season.
post #9932 of 10191
I third you two guys.

I think too many folks want a particular show to fit into their own pre-conceived ideas of WHAT Sci-Fi should, or shouldn't be... A lot of sci-fi fans are confirmed atheists, or agnostics, for example, and therefore if there's any sort of spiritual component brought to bear -- especially the way it panned out in BSG -- they get VERY annoyed, as happened with this show for many on this thread... Others get unhappy if there's too much action, or too little... it gets too dark, or too technical, or whatever.

I just don't go those places. I try to look at a work, overall, and what it "brings to the table," overall, as a work. I felt BSG did NOT retcon itself, regardless of all the arguments that it did and the "evidence" presented to "prove" so. I thought the way it ended was sort of neat. We have no way of knowing, proving or disproving such things. To me, an atheist is as much of a religious fanatic as a full-blown fundamentalist -- they simply believe in a "Godless religion." Stating that you absolutely deny the possibility of the existence of a supreme being, or a divine intelligence, and/or something that connects all life is really no different from saying that you absolutely KNOW your various interpretation of God/religion is the absolute truth. PROVE either assertion.

As I saw it, the way the show ended was fun and playful, and made for a satisfying and compelling resolution.
Jeff
post #9933 of 10191
Well let me be clear. I still enjoyed season 3 and 4. My point of view is that they set the bar so high in 1 and 2, that 3 and 4 were somewhat of a lesser degree of excellence. I think some of the side tracks and 1 off episodes in 3 would've sat better with me if the show had gone 5,6, or 7 seasons.

For me the personal turning point was after New Caprica. Some of the decisions certain characters made just seemed totally out of left field.
post #9934 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamieva View Post

For me the personal turning point was after New Caprica. Some of the decisions certain characters made just seemed totally out of left field.

Sounds interesting. Let's discuss!

One of the biggest questions has to be about the Cylon's plan, and why it suddenly changed. The ostensible reason was that Caprica Six and the Three that would become Athena (I've got that right, right?) were somehow able to convince the entire Cylon Nation to do an abrupt 180 and decide to live in undisturbed peace with the surviving humans, in essence sharing the galaxy.

But there could have been another reason: They discovered that humans are notoriously difficult to completely eradicate and the "logical" solution might be to just live with them and thereby remove the risk that they could somehow find a way to reverse the fortunes of war. They are constantly faced with the risk of fight or die and necessity is the mother of invention. Humans, a practical machine might conclude, are dangerous and unpredictable. And it would be centuries before they could rebuild their technology and civilization to represent an actual risk. By then, Cylons would have advanced too, and the machines will always be ahead of them. Seems sensible. Until New Caprica proved that wasn't going to work either, and the "hawks" (Cavil, mostly) reasserted control.
post #9935 of 10191
Well, I don't have any reasonable answers to the questions you raise, but I can throw in a few more:

How does the "ruling class" of cylons work? Seems like a chosen one can represent an entire model line, and whatever s/he decides becomes the decision of the entire line (though clearly #8 had its problems with Boomer).

With the cylons wanting Starbuck's eggs, had they finally realized they need humans for their own survival in order to move to the "next level"?

I would add a third, that some of the cylons have connected with a "higher power" that has given them a source of right and wrong---but those type of questions drive some people crazy (even though there are many references over the episodes to "God's will".
post #9936 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Well, I don't have any reasonable answers to the questions you raise, but I can throw in a few more:

How does the "ruling class" of cylons work? Seems like a chosen one can represent an entire model line, and whatever s/he decides becomes the decision of the entire line (though clearly #8 had its problems with Boomer).

I'm thinking it's more a matter of age, just like in most early human societies. The longest living elder becomes leader of the tribe because he's had the most experience. That works until the tribe becomes too big to manage, and there are interim institutions like monarchies and so forth, but I think that may be kind of the general idea.

Individual Cylon consciousness is retained no matter how many times they download into new bodies. Therefore, the first Cylon to be created, Cavil, is the oldest and sort of the "supreme leader" even though it's ostensibly a "democracy".

Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

With the Cylons wanting Starbuck's eggs, had they finally realized they need humans for their own survival in order to move to the "next level"?

Did they ever really resolve that plot point or was it kind of abandoned? They didn't know that Starbuck was some kind of divine "special" sort of human at the time (or maybe she wasn't until she "died" and re-surfaced), so I don't think her kidnapping was particularly noteworthy. Wasn't she just another human female to experiment on?

Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

I would add a third, that some of the Cylons have connected with a "higher power" that has given them a source of right and wrong---but those type of questions drive some people crazy (even though there are many references over the episodes to "God's will".

Lots of unanswered theological questions raised, especially in the finale. I don't even think Ron Moore is sure about that one. But maybe it's not so big a leap to surmise there has evolved in the galaxy a race of beings who are so much older and more advanced that they actually are able to manipulate "lessor" beings around like pieces on a chessboard. So advanced they manifest their presence as unseen gods, perhaps operating outside our understanding of physics. Plenty of good sci-fi has explored that theme, but there's no indication Moore was going there. He deliberately left it open to interpretation.
post #9937 of 10191
They never answered the issues of Starbuck's eggs from the Farm episode. It had the potential to be an interesting plot twist. IIRC Leoben told her the little girl on New Caprica was the product of her eggs, but of course we know that was not true when the real mom shows up on Galactica.

Still would like an answer to the Olympic Carrier from the beginning of season 1. Were there people on it? Had the Cylons compromised the ship in some way?

The biggest plot hole to me is that for the initial attack the Cylons plan to knock down the Colonials ability to fight back by making their battlestars and fighters inoperable, but they never had a plan for Galactica which is not a networked battlestar. Why? They had Cylons on the ship and with Baltar's access they knew it wouldn't fall prey to their plan so they should have had a second plan to deal with it individually. DUMB.
post #9938 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamieva View Post

Still would like an answer to the Olympic Carrier from the beginning of season 1. Were there people on it? Had the Cylons compromised the ship in some way?

See post 9933, just above. Short answer - yes & yes.
post #9939 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamieva View Post

...

The biggest plot hole to me is that for the initial attack the Cylons plan to knock down the Colonials ability to fight back by making their battlestars and fighters inoperable, but they never had a plan for Galactica which is not a networked battlestar. Why? They had Cylons on the ship and with Baltar's access they knew it wouldn't fall prey to their plan so they should have had a second plan to deal with it individually. DUMB.

Since the Chief (one of the final five) was on board, they couldn't risk something happening to him. Cavil still wanted him to learn some "lessons" at that point.
post #9940 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I'm thinking it's more a matter of age, just like in most early human societies. The longest living elder becomes leader of the tribe because he's had the most experience. That works until the tribe becomes too big to manage, and there are interim institutions like monarchies and so forth, but I think that may be kind of the general idea.

Individual Cylon consciousness is retained no matter how many times they download into new bodies. Therefore, the first Cylon to be created, Cavil, is the oldest and sort of the "supreme leader" even though it's ostensibly a "democracy".

That would work for me. As we've seen, he is the "leader"


Quote:


Did they ever really resolve that plot point or was it kind of abandoned? They didn't know that Starbuck was some kind of divine "special" sort of human at the time (or maybe she wasn't until she "died" and re-surfaced), so I don't think her kidnapping was particularly noteworthy. Wasn't she just another human female to experiment on?

I believe that at that point in time she was "just" human--though somehow she knew she had a "destiny".


Quote:


Lots of unanswered theological questions raised, especially in the finale. I don't even think Ron Moore is sure about that one. But maybe it's not so big a leap to surmise there has evolved in the galaxy a race of beings who are so much older and more advanced that they actually are able to manipulate "lessor" beings around like pieces on a chessboard. So advanced they manifest their presence as unseen gods, perhaps operating outside our understanding of physics. Plenty of good sci-fi has explored that theme, but there's no indication Moore was going there. He deliberately left it open to interpretation.

Moore's universe and its theology could easily accommodate any of those points.
post #9941 of 10191
My wife and I watched the plan last night. Put me in the camp who is a bit disappointed that the plan was post-nukes, no plan. My wife complained that the 6 scenes were a bit more gratuitous than normal (I guess the DVD had some other gratuities too). Fell into the waste of time category for me.
post #9942 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffAHayes View Post

I think too many folks want a particular show to fit into their own pre-conceived ideas of WHAT Sci-Fi should, or shouldn't be... A lot of sci-fi fans are confirmed atheists, or agnostics, for example, and therefore if there's any sort of spiritual component brought to bear -- especially the way it panned out in BSG -- they get VERY annoyed, as happened with this show for many on this thread... Others get unhappy if there's too much action, or too little... it gets too dark, or too technical, or whatever.

I completely disagree. I think many of us folks have preconceived ideas of what Sci-Fi NEEDS to be in order to remain relevant and plausible. Not in a realistic sense, but in that fictional universe. Overall, I loved BSG, but I am in the camp that believes the series deteriorated after season 2. I was neither offended by the spiritual aspects, nor was I wanting more action. I thought the writers went off in too many directions and were never able to put it all together in the end. In my opinion, the show succeeded DESPITE the fact that there was no sum to all of its parts.

BSG's move to softer sci-fi in the third and fourth season seemed to require certain leaps of faith that I wasn't willing to take. My all time favorite soft sci-fi writer, Ursula Le Guin explains fantasy/sci-fi plausibility better than I ever would ...
http://www.ursulakleguin.com/PlausibilityinFantasy.html

http://www.ursulakleguin.com/PlausibilityRevisited.html

BSG's largest flaw was the lack of background story for the cylon civilization. This was a huge asset during the first two seasons since it added a level of mystery to the entire show. However, as seasons 3 and 4 continued to expand the cylon storylines, the viewer was left without any background or context to how they became what they are or even what their motives were.
post #9943 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

BSG's move to softer sci-fi in the third and fourth season seemed to require certain leaps of faith that I wasn't willing to take.

BSG's largest flaw was the lack of background story for the cylon civilization. This was a huge asset during the first two seasons since it added a level of mystery to the entire show. However, as seasons 3 and 4 continued to expand the cylon storylines, the viewer was left without any background or context to how they became what they are or even what their motives were.

That was a choice you had the right to make; but its ironic that spirituality/conscience is based on freewill.

In my opinion there was absolutely no need for a Cylon backstory or motivation. In our histories many peoples have appeared from "no where" (from the perspective of the victims), hated, attacked, and destroyed other people for little to no real reason; other than a preceived threat or simple jealousy. (Didn't the Cylons justify the attack on Religious grounds?)
post #9944 of 10191
Thread Starter 
I agree that the lack of a complete background story for the Cylons wasn't necessary to enjoy the show. We saw their impact on human civilization, and we sorta' knew their motivations. We had what we needed to follow the plotline.

But, that said, I was always curious about their homeworld. They must have had vast shipyards to construct that many huge basestars and it would have been cool to have seen stuff like that. I was hoping perhaps some of that background might have been included in "The Plan", but there probably wasn't the budget for creating a whole new world we hadn't seen before.
post #9945 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffAHayes View Post

To me, an atheist is as much of a religious fanatic as a full-blown fundamentalist -- they simply believe in a "Godless religion." Stating that you absolutely deny the possibility of the existence of a supreme being, or a divine intelligence, and/or something that connects all life is really no different from saying that you absolutely KNOW your various interpretation of God/religion is the absolute truth. PROVE either assertion.

I suppose that's why you could call me a "soft" atheist in that while I don't believe in a god or gods, I also don't believe that that's something we'd ever be able to prove/disprove. I agree that anyone who states adamantly that there isn't is just as bad as one who states adamantly that there is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

I completely disagree. I think many of us folks have preconceived ideas of what Sci-Fi NEEDS to be in order to remain relevant and plausible. Not in a realistic sense, but in that fictional universe.
BSG's move to softer sci-fi in the third and fourth season seemed to require certain leaps of faith that I wasn't willing to take. My all time favorite soft sci-fi writer, Ursula Le Guin explains fantasy/sci-fi plausibility better than I ever would ...
http://www.ursulakleguin.com/PlausibilityinFantasy.html

http://www.ursulakleguin.com/PlausibilityRevisited.html

Taken from your first link: The rules that govern how things work in the imagined world cannot be changed during the story.

I can't think of an instance where BSG broke its own rules. I've never thought of BSG as a science-fiction show, but rather as a drama with a science-fiction background. Yes, they were in space fighting killer robots, but that was secondary to the characters and what the show was really about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Sounds interesting. Let's discuss!

One of the biggest questions has to be about the Cylon's plan, and why it suddenly changed. The ostensible reason was that Caprica Six and the Three that would become Athena (I've got that right, right?) were somehow able to convince the entire Cylon Nation to do an abrupt 180 and decide to live in undisturbed peace with the surviving humans, in essence sharing the galaxy.

Wasn't that Boomer? Athena was with Helo when they got rescued from Caprica, and Boomer was with 6 when they killed Lucy Lawless (Can't remember the character's name...lol).
post #9946 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I agree that the lack of a complete background story for the Cylons wasn't necessary to enjoy the show. We saw their impact on human civilization, and we sorta' knew their motivations. We had what we needed to follow the plotline.

But, that said, I was always curious about their homeworld. They must have had vast shipyards to construct that many huge basestars and it would have been cool to have seen stuff like that. I was hoping perhaps some of that background might have been included in "The Plan", but there probably wasn't the budget for creating a whole new world we hadn't seen before.

Maybe they will get to this as Caprica goes along and approaches the time period of the 1st Cylon war.
post #9947 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamieva View Post

Maybe they will get to this as Caprica goes along and approaches the time period of the 1st Cylon war.

I don't want to get my hopes up too high, but that is exactly what I am hoping for with Caprica. I bought the DVD of the pilot as soon as it was available, and thought that great potential was there.
post #9948 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by moob View Post

I suppose that's why you could call me a "soft" atheist in that while I don't believe in a god or gods, I also don't believe that that's something we'd ever be able to prove/disprove. I agree that anyone who states adamantly that there isn't is just as bad as one who states adamantly that there is.

That would make you an agnostic, not an atheist. Welcome to the club!
post #9949 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by moob View Post

Taken from your first link: The rules that govern how things work in the imagined world cannot be changed during the story.

I can't think of an instance where BSG broke its own rules. I've never thought of BSG as a science-fiction show, but rather as a drama with a science-fiction background. Yes, they were in space fighting killer robots, but that was secondary to the characters and what the show was really about.

Your definition of BSG as a drama with a sci-fi background is pretty much the definition of soft sci-fi that Ursula Le Guin is famous for. BSG was revolutionary for a TV show, but they certainly didn't create a new story genre.

Read the paragraph before the line you quoted ...
I believe that as soon as wishful thinking or a conscious political or didactic purpose intrude on that credence, they deform it and the story loses plausibility. Wishful thinking gives us the feeble kind of fantasy where everything is easy, and you never have to feed or water or look after the horse you rode all day. An ideological purpose produces a sermon, or satire (which is not fantasy, and has very different standards of plausibility, since it is a mirror held up to actual life).
The touchstone to plausibility in imaginative fiction is probably coherence. Realistic fiction can be, perhaps must be, incoherent in imitation of our perceptions of reality. Fantasy, which creates a world, must be strictly coherent to its own terms, or it loses all plausibility. The rules that govern how things work in the imagined world cannot be changed during the story.


BSG seemed to take pride in the fact that these fictional colonists obeyed the same physical laws of our own universe. This added a certain level of plausibility to the entire story. They had to fight and scrap in order to survive. Nothing came easy. As Ursula Le Guin puts it, they had to feed, water, and look after the horse they rode all day. However, by the end of season 4, they simply ignored all of those things and had a ghostly Starbuck point to Earth. They no longer had to feed the horse. And pushing even further into the implausible, once they arrived on Earth, they actually killed the horse.
post #9950 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

BSG seemed to take pride in the fact that these fictional colonists obeyed the same physical laws of our own universe. This added a certain level of plausibility to the entire story. They had to fight and scrap in order to survive. Nothing came easy. As Ursula Le Guin puts it, they had to feed, water, and look after the horse they rode all day. However, by the end of season 4, they simply ignored all of those things and had a ghostly Starbuck point to Earth. They no longer had to feed the horse. And pushing even further into the implausible, once they arrived on Earth, they actually killed the horse.

While I willingly concede that the mystery of Starbuck and her shiny new Viper was never resolved, it's incumbent to remember that Moore never said one way or the other what she was, leaving that to the audience's imagination. At least there were never any bumpy-headed bi-pedal aliens speaking perfect English, which already puts it head and shoulders above most anything else sci-fi related that's ever appeared on the small screen.
post #9951 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

While I willingly concede that the mystery of Starbuck and her shiny new Viper was never resolved, it's incumbent to remember that Moore never said one way or the other what she was, leaving that to the audience's imagination. At least there were never any bumpy-headed bi-pedal aliens speaking perfect English, which already puts it head and shoulders above most anything else sci-fi related that's ever appeared on the small screen.

Yes, I completely agree and I did love the series as a whole. But there needs to be a balance between audience interpretation and plot resolution. I personally think they went too far with allowing interpretations because they simply had written themselves into a corner with no logical resolutions. They wrote a lot of seemingly important storylines in seasons 3 and 4 that turned out to be completely irrelevant in the end. There was no Kaiser Soze moment. Looking back on the series as a whole, I thought it was great, but I do have to actively ignore a lot of the loose ends to completely enjoy it.
post #9952 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

I don't want to get my hopes up too high, but that is exactly what I am hoping for with Caprica. I bought the DVD of the pilot as soon as it was available, and thought that great potential was there.

My disappointment with The Plan was the inverse of Caprica. I loved the pilot and can't wait for the series to start next week!
post #9953 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

Yes, I completely agree and I did love the series as a whole. But there needs to be a balance between audience interpretation and plot resolution. I personally think they went too far with allowing interpretations because they simply had written themselves into a corner with no logical resolutions. They wrote a lot of seemingly important storylines in seasons 3 and 4 that turned out to be completely irrelevant in the end. There was no Kaiser Soze moment. Looking back on the series as a whole, I thought it was great, but I do have to actively ignore a lot of the loose ends to completely enjoy it.

I think that's one of the problems inherent with serialized television. You never know how long you've got, so how far do you go developing and extending the narrative? Too few or undeveloped plotlines and the story drags, too many and it becomes difficult to keep all the balls in the air and tie everything together at the end.

There seems to be universal agreement that LOST got its mojo back when they set a series end date that various storylines could coalesce around. It almost seemed like the whole Starbuck mystery was introduced so dramatic conflict could be created between one group of people who loved her and trusted her implicitly, and another group who were suspicious and distrustful. Mission accomplished, but there should have been more of a payoff at the end.
post #9954 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdr25 View Post

That would make you an agnostic, not an atheist. Welcome to the club!

Depending on where you look, there are different definitions for both atheism and agnosticism. I go by the definitions of atheists being nonbelievers and agnostics being undecided (or even saying that we don't know). Ehhhhh...give me a part-time pass since I have my feet in both clubs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

BSG seemed to take pride in the fact that these fictional colonists obeyed the same physical laws of our own universe. This added a certain level of plausibility to the entire story. They had to fight and scrap in order to survive. Nothing came easy. As Ursula Le Guin puts it, they had to feed, water, and look after the horse they rode all day. However, by the end of season 4, they simply ignored all of those things and had a ghostly Starbuck point to Earth. They no longer had to feed the horse. And pushing even further into the implausible, once they arrived on Earth, they actually killed the horse.

But like archi said, they never explained what Starbuck was, so those rules didn't apply. At all. Those truths still held true for the humans (and cylons for that matter). Actually, in one of the later episodes, Tigh found Roslin and Adama together, and they were still drinking that algae, so it's not like they completely forgot about it. But even more than that, in the final episodes, it wasn't about the food or the water, it became about the Galactica itself. The "horse" in a very real way if you want to throw that analogy in there. Their horse was dying, and in fact did die. What do you with a dead horse, no shelter and limited supplies when you come upon a paradise you've been searching for for x number of years?

And the Cylons were in a similar situation facing their extinction.

It's easy to say that Starbuck just pointed the way to Earth. Then you could ask the next question...why didn't she do that from the beginning? But that wasn't the point. And that is the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

There was no Kaiser Soze moment.

As an aside, I hated that movie and thought that "plot twist" (is it really a twist if you see it coming from a mile away?) betrayed the character it was supposed to represent. I watched it the other day because Bryan Singer was in the news again talking about his BSG movie. I kinda liked X2, but absolutely hated Valkyrie (A WWII movie in Germany in English? No thanks) and thought Superman Returns was boring/plot-holey. Judging by those 4 movies, I really hope someone takes BSG away from him.
post #9955 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by moob View Post


But like archi said, they never explained what Starbuck was, so those rules didn't apply. At all. Those truths still held true for the humans (and cylons for that matter). Actually, in one of the later episodes, Tigh found Roslin and Adama together, and they were still drinking that algae, so it's not like they completely forgot about it. But even more than that, in the final episodes, it wasn't about the food or the water, it became about the Galactica itself. The "horse" in a very real way if you want to throw that analogy in there. Their horse was dying, and in fact did die. What do you with a dead horse, no shelter and limited supplies when you come upon a paradise you've been searching for for x number of years?

And the Cylons were in a similar situation facing their extinction.

It's easy to say that Starbuck just pointed the way to Earth. Then you could ask the next question...why didn't she do that from the beginning? But that wasn't the point. And that is the point.

You are taking that analogy way too literally. Its not about the food and water. Its about all the little details in the fictional universe. Like creating a universe where ships have ftl drives, can jump away and barely leave a trail. You can't go 4 seasons in that universe and suddenly introduce an unknown character who can simply break all the rules and simply show them to Earth. It doesn't matter if we don't know who or what that character is, its the fact that she doesn't fit within that universe that they've created.

I completely understand that the Galactica was falling apart ... they pretty much pounded that over our heads for the entire final season. That is a gross simplification of the horse analogy. The real horse was technology. They killed the horse by deciding (without a fight from anybody) to destroy all remaining ships. Its just not plausible that all of these people would just unanimously give up on those other ships without a fight. Especially when all of them were burned in a similar situation on New Caprica.
post #9956 of 10191
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

You are taking that analogy way too literally. Its not about the food and water. Its about all the little details in the fictional universe. Like creating a universe where ships have ftl drives, can jump away and barely leave a trail. You can't go 4 seasons in that universe and suddenly introduce an unknown character who can simply break all the rules and simply show them to Earth. It doesn't matter if we don't know who or what that character is, its the fact that she doesn't fit within that universe that they've created.

I completely understand that the Galactica was falling apart ... they pretty much pounded that over our heads for the entire final season. That is a gross simplification of the horse analogy. The real horse was technology. They killed the horse by deciding (without a fight from anybody) to destroy all remaining ships. Its just not plausible that all of these people would just unanimously give up on those other ships without a fight. Especially when all of them were burned in a similar situation on New Caprica.

You know what? It's hard to argue with those points, although I will submit that the Galactica falling apart was a key plot element during the final season and needed as much attention as it got; it wasn't overwhelming to me (and it was cool to see the vfx they whipped up for the ftl drive). And, in a way, I can sympathize with those who felt that Moore simply "mcguffin'ed" his way out of several troublesome plotlines. I get that.

But I gotta' tell ya'..... That final episode, with all its faults, has to be one of the most powerful hours of TV I've ever seen. In terms of simply moving me, it was unparalleled with the exception being, maybe, the first episode "33". Nice bookends. I've posted this before: I've watched the finale several times (it has the honor of a permanent place on my DVR's expansion drive, until it crashes) and it never fails to move me. Bear McCready's remarkable full orchestral score has a lot to do with it of course. But dadgum if I don't get a little misty with a lump in my throat every time I watch it, even though I can recite the dialog by heart at this point. How many TV shows have ever had the power to move me like that? Ummm, I'll get back to you on that as soon as I think of one.
post #9957 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

You are taking that analogy way too literally. Its not about the food and water. Its about all the little details in the fictional universe. Like creating a universe where ships have ftl drives, can jump away and barely leave a trail. You can't go 4 seasons in that universe and suddenly introduce an unknown character who can simply break all the rules and simply show them to Earth. It doesn't matter if we don't know who or what that character is, its the fact that she doesn't fit within that universe that they've created.

Yeah, I did take it literally didn't I? But it still sort of works. BSG is one of the few shows which actually did show us all of the minutiae of everyday life. We got to see what it took for these people to survive. Hell, we even got to see the bathroom (and people using it). But that was one aspect. You say that Starbuck didn't fit with the universe that we saw, but she did...we simply had never seen it that blatantly.

In the very first episode we saw Baltar repent and just as he did, Roslin makes the decision to shoot down the Olympic Carrier. You can make the argument that it was the logical choice (and it was), but the question of "What if?" is already introduced in the very first episode. In the Hand of God episode, Baltar miraculously chooses the right building to bomb, and we see Head-6 telling him it was God's plan, and he even says he's an instrument of God and that that was the only logical explanation. Of course you could argue it was dumb luck and his ego was out of control, but the possibility that something else was in play was there. And then there's Roslin and all the visions of Pithia that she had (without knowing anything about the mythology). Again, you could argue it was just hallucinations, but how did she see things that had not yet come to pass? The question is there once more. And of course in season 3 we saw all the ships lose/regain power.

Starbuck wasn't an anomaly. She was simply the strongest manifestation of something that had previously been strongly suggested at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

I completely understand that the Galactica was falling apart ... they pretty much pounded that over our heads for the entire final season. That is a gross simplification of the horse analogy. The real horse was technology. They killed the horse by deciding (without a fight from anybody) to destroy all remaining ships. Its just not plausible that all of these people would just unanimously give up on those other ships without a fight. Especially when all of them were burned in a similar situation on New Caprica.

Granted, they probably should have spent at least another minute on that, but why isn't it plausible? The Galactica was dead. The same people who mutinied/supported the mutiny now had just three choices (along with everyone else). Go off on their own with no protection, no fuel and no supplies (remember, many of those ships got their food and water from the Galactica). Go off with the Basestar which is now being controlled by the toasters (and even if human models had stayed on board, they'd still be cylons). Settle on the planet and make the best of a craptastic situation. After years of being stuck in a tube or living on the harsh New Caprica, their choice makes sense to me (especially for people who had to work on the mining ship or the sewage ship or the food processing ship etc). My only gripe would be them giving up a warm place to sleep, but they had limited fuel that probably wouldn't have lasted long anyway, and I'm guessing they were all given the same kinds of tents that we saw. I suppose they could have fought for their ships, but what good would it have done?
post #9958 of 10191
Well...

The easiest and simplest concept is "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it!"

That is why Cavil keeps asking everyone what they've learned....but no one has learned the way Cavil wants them to, therefore "It has all happened before...." keeps coming back.

I find it an obvious message but without details.
post #9959 of 10191
Quote:
Originally Posted by edpowers View Post

You are taking that analogy way too literally. Its not about the food and water. Its about all the little details in the fictional universe. Like creating a universe where ships have ftl drives, can jump away and barely leave a trail. You can't go 4 seasons in that universe and suddenly introduce an unknown character who can simply break all the rules and simply show them to Earth. It doesn't matter if we don't know who or what that character is, its the fact that she doesn't fit within that universe that they've created.

I completely understand that the Galactica was falling apart ... they pretty much pounded that over our heads for the entire final season. That is a gross simplification of the horse analogy. The real horse was technology. They killed the horse by deciding (without a fight from anybody) to destroy all remaining ships. Its just not plausible that all of these people would just unanimously give up on those other ships without a fight. Especially when all of them were burned in a similar situation on New Caprica.

I REALLY liked your Ursula K. LeGuinn quote on the previous page, Ed.

I've been a fan of hers ever since I first read "The Ones who walk away from Omelas" many moons ago in college (one of the most powerfully moving short stories ever written, in my opinion). Not being much of a fiction reader, I haven't actually READ any of her other fiction, but I've seen her name in a few TV and movie credits, I think.

However, I disagree with your interpretations above, somewhat.

First, I think the "new Starbuck" in Season 4 was just a part of that extended, faith-based mythology you either had to accept or reject. You chose to reject it. I found it kinda cool. Even if you don't believe in God or heaven or eternal life, etc., it's still possible that by some sort of extreme will combined with perhaps the intervention of some unseen/unknown higher life form, she was brought back temporarily just to serve that ONE purpose. And I just thought the way she sort of just "disappeared" had a really neat feel to it.

As for them sending ALL their ships into the sun. I'm not sure, had it been ME, if I wouldn't have kept at least one or two of the ones in the best shape around for "just-in-case" scenarios. But it was them making a statement, that they were FINISHED RUNNING, and had found a HOME, and were going to set up roots and stay there, and had no further use for those ships. Also, by doing that, they definitely indicated to the remaining Cylons that they certainly WEREN'T any ongoing threat.

Finally, I think A LOT of the answers to the questions about the Cylons and the belief in a single God, and possibly even why some of them got some compassion at the end and decided to become "humanized" are awaiting those of you who have yet to see the "Caprica" pilot.

Frankly, I think "Caprica" explains MORE about the origin and genesis of the Cylon consciousness and state-of-mind than everything else combined, so far, even though it ends very early in that process.
Jeff
post #9960 of 10191
Brother Cavil sure is a trip. He gets the best lines. The scene with him and the dark haired 6 in bed was hilarious.
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