thanks for the reply (and for taking the time to skim through the www_avforums_com/forums/showthread.php?t=177516 thread.
Well that's certainly nasty! I've seen nothing like that with the 59avi, nor heard any such complaints from others.
I assume this is because in US there is no SCART so RGB is not used, furthermore the target user for the 868/59 is the high end (due to cost) and these users would use Component or HDMI, so I assumed this was overlooked somehow.
If I understand what you are saying, this appears in some or all of the analog video outputs -- primarily Component RGB via the SCART connector. Is it correct that there's no problem on the digital (HDMI) output? How about Y/C analog video via the SCART? How about the regular (YPbPr) Component output?
As you say below, apparently only RGB and CVBS are affected, while S-Video (Y/C) and HDMI is OK. I do not have any info about Component (YPbPr) from anybody who has observed the problem with RGB and CVBS.
Is the problem always with a PAL analog video output signal (i.e., has anyone had a chance to check whether the problem also appears with NTSC analog video output)?
The problem appears also with NTSC (region 1) DVD like Star Wars I and II on a 868 which was made region free.
Also, does the problem occur with interlaced output as well as progressive output?
This I do not know. We have tried forcing the 868/59 to progressive (with the button on front), and changing the settings (Auto1, Auto2, PureCinema, etc) to no avail.
Off-hand this looks like over-saturation of the PAL analog video signal, which really shouldn't be happening on an RGB Component output. You could try lowering the Color level using the video adjust menu of the 868avi to see if that helps.
Yes. I was guessing a defect in the analog Video generation circuitry. The MPEG decoder is obviously not involved. I have not tried playing with DVD Player setting (as for me there should no way a DVD player should be able to generate an image which is obviously so wrong , someone else with the problem did it and was able to get rid of the stripes but the resulting contrast was very adversely affected (according to him: "In video adjust, increase white and black levels to the max, black setup to 7.5, gamma to maximum. Then descrease the brightness of your TV until you get a normal brightness. Then it is fixed but you loose all the contrast"). Furthermore there is the fact that the image is perfect on my older Pioneer 525 (with same TV) and with my Computer. BTW The manual for European 868 can be downloaded from any Pioneer euro site (I put an extract below so you can see which kind of control it has)..
Whatever the fault actually turns out to be, this is a fairly fundamental problem and I'd be shocked to discover that Pioneer released a unit with an imaging flaw this easy to reproduce. Also it makes no sense to me that this would not have been reported by reviewers of the 868avi.
Don't tell me ! I spent 1000EUR on the thing and I cannot watch a movie with subtitle on!
I think it would be wise to double-check with Pioneer that this really is an unfixable flaw.
I sent e-mail but no reply... Someone in UK sent same complaint to Pioneer UK and is told (see the euro-thread)
that problem is due to way that DVD has been prepared, which is preposterous IMHO.
1) What you are seeing is *NOT* CUE or any other such artifact resulting from errors decoding the data off the DVD or de-interlacing the image. What you are seeing is a mismatch of signal levels between the player and the TV. This is exaggerated when bright, saturated colors show up in the image.
Yes. Agree 100%
2) Apparently this occurs in some but not all of the analog signals generated by the PAL, analog, video output stage. HDMI (digital video) output is clean.
Yes. And also with NTSC.
3) Your first thought when seeing such problems should be that there is a calibration (settings) error on either the player side or the TV side. Either the player's analog video output stage is being over-driven by the image it is trying to send or the signal it is sending is over-driving the video input of the TV.
Yes, but as this happens with different TVs (at least with Sony and Phillips) and the TV are calibrated correctly (e.g. using THX Optimiser)
plus they never exhibit problem with other RGB and CVBS analog sources (VHS VCR, two different DVD players) one would assume the TV is behaving within specified signal tolerances.
What I do not know is specifically which "mistake" in the Analog output can cause brightening of image areas adjacent (horizontally) to bright titles/subtitles.
Since the black background turns into white (and not green, red or whatever) and since this also happens with BW movies(see Casablanca snapshot below) I would guess that all 3 color component signal level in RGB (and the luminance in CVBS) are increased somehow too much. What is strange is that S-Video is OK (which I would expect to be affected since luminance is used to build CVBS).
Could this be due to the fact that in a SCART working in RGB mode the synch is not on green but is taken by the TV from the CVBS signal (which normally stays there also when the output of the player is set to RGB) ??
Now I'm not familiar enough with the controls offered on the 868avi for adjusting the levels of the PAL analog video output signal to know if there's a setting change you should try, or if this is just a faulty design and it CAN'T be adjusted to levels that will work with your TV. In the NTSC versions, there is a menu item called Black Setup which sets the voltage level on the analog video cables that represents "black". Many TVs only have enough calibration range to work well with one of the two possible voltage settings, and the player has to be adjusted to match what the TV can tolerate.
The control on the 868 are:
You can adjust any or all of the following
picture quality settings:Prog. Motion
- Adjusts the motion and
still picture quality when the player is set
to progressive video output. This has no
effect when set to OnPureCinema
- When watching DVD
movies, PureCinema optimizes the
picture quality. The default setting is
Auto1, but if the picture appears
unnatural, then set to
Auto2,On or Off as appropriate.YNR
- Adjusts the amount of noise
reduction in the Y (brightness) part of the
- Adjusts the amount of noise
reduction in the C (color) part of the video signal.Sharpness High
- Adjusts the sharpness
of the high-frequency (detailed) elements
in the picture.Sharpness Mid
- Adjusts the sharpness
of the mid-frequency (less detailed)
elements in the picture.Detail
- Adjusts the sharpness of edges
in the picture.White Level
- Adjusts the intensity of white.Black Level
- Adjusts the intensity of black.Black Setup
- Setup to correct the floating black color for better 3-dimensional realism.Gamma
- Adjusts the brightness of darker images.Hue
- Adjusts the overall color balance between red and green.Chroma Level
- Adjusts how saturated colors appear.Chroma Delay
- Adjust to correct the gap
between the Y and C components in the
(This setting only affects
progressive video output.)
When the HDMI output is connected, the
following options also appear:HDMI Color Adjust
- Adjusts the overall
color intensity in the HDMI video signal
(select between Standard and Enhanced).HDMI Detail
- Adjusts the sharpness of
edges in the HDMI video signal.
4 Press ENTER to save the preset and
exit the Video Adjust screen.
So before giving up on this player, you might want to get a copy of the PAL version of Digital Video Essentials (DVE) and correspond with some people on your European forum who are familiar with calibrating players and TVs for analog PAL video signals.
I will order one straight away....:-(
Again, this may be a faulty design in the player, but it doesn't make sense to me that something this bad wouldn't have been reported by reviewers.
This is really puzzling (@£$%&!!! euphemism!) me. All the review in Europe and US sings high praise for the player including analog out,
I wonder how much time reviewer spent watching different material, again in a normal image there is no apparent flaw.
It is only high contrast Titles and subtitles at least) which causes this..
Note also that it is common, at least in the US, for TV manufacturers to ship their TVs set to default settings which are truly dreadful -- what are called the "torch" modes -- in order to produce overly bright/contrasty, overly red, and overly sharpness enhanced images which attract people in stores. If your TV is set that way, then it is quite possible that one DVD player might mute it's default signal expecting to be connected to a mis-adjusted TV whereas a "better" player might, by default, send out a "proper" signal which causes the mis-adjusted TV to look awful -- under the theory that folks buying the better player will take the time to adjust their TVs correctly. The point being, you really do need to calibrate the basic blacks/whites/colors/sharpness settings of your TV for your new DVD player before making any decisions about image quality.
I will try playing with the DVD settings when it comes back from repair shop (where no repair has been done!).