Pioneer Elite 59avi Owners Thread - Page 2

Kage,
To read the Avia Y/C delay chart, look at each of the columns on the left hand side separately. You'll see a set of patterns in each column that shows whether that particular signal is early or late with "just right" being the 0 pattern in the middle of the column. What you want to do is find the pattern in each column where the LEFT edge of each of the two strips lines up most closely with each other. Ideally that should be the 0 pattern for each column. You may find the actual reading is in between two patterns, in which case you just use an in between number.

Meanwhile the vertical color bars on the right side will show you the effect of any Y/C delay error. The error shows up as an imprecise transition at the vertical edges where the background color changes over to the color bar on each side of the bar.

Now keep in mind that Y/C signal timing mismatches can be due to either the player OR the display or a combination of the two. In terms of using the player's controls (or any controls that might be available on your display) to fix it, that is not really important. You simply make the best adjustment you can to get the Y/C measurements as close to zero as possible and to get the color bars on the right looking as clean as possible on the edges. However if your display is generating the problem, and you fix it by adjusting the player's controls, you'll still have the problem as regards other source devices.

Once again, if you DO find a Y/C delay problem, keep in mind that unless you know the characteristics of your display, you can't jump to any conclusion as to whether the problem is coming from the player or is inside the display itself. Changing the signal path in the player or the display, as for example by hooking up to a different input, may reveal a problem that wasn't there on some other signal path.

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If you like the "Vivid" mode on your TV, the odds are you simply don't have experience with what a calibrated image looks like yet. TV manufacturers invariably ship their sets with default settings like "Vivid" that are disparagingly called the "torch" modes -- overly bright/contrasty, overly red, and overly sharpness enhanced. They do this because the torch modes make their TVs stand out in stores, particularly in the garish lighting found in stores. As you've found out, such settings are inconsistent with critical viewing. You will see artifacts and the true details of the film will be obscured by "false sharpness" and noise. In addition, colors will be flat out wrong.

Trust your calibration DVD! You did the right thing to calibrate in "movie" mode. Be sure you are calibrating with the room lighting set to your normal viewing conditions (which should be dim lighting but not totally blacked out).

Take some time to get used to the image you get with your set calibrated in that fashion. Keep in mind that most movies are intentionally filmed to have a soft look.

If this is your first time using a calibration DVD, you may very well find that it pays to go back in and try it again a few more times as you gain experience watching different films. Keep in mind that settings like Brightness and Contrast interact, so you need to iterate a few times to find the sweet spot setting that's right for both of them. Have patience, experiment with SMALL changes, and start to develop a feel for how tweaking one or another control actually alters the image you get.

If your TV has setting "memories", reserve one for your very best effort at doing the calibration "just right" as per the DVD. Then use any other memories for experiments where you deviate from those settings JUST A LITTLE BIT.

But for heaven's sake don't use "vivid" mode.
--bob

Bob,
Is it ok that I use standard mode on my tv to calibrate the DV-59AVi or do I have to use movie mode?

Is it possible to do the following?

Pio HDMI 480i, HDMI to DVI, then iScan, then back to HDMI to the display?

I know Levesque does it this way, but leaves it as DVI to his display.

I did ping DVDO, and they said an HDMI iScan is coming later this year. (I remember him saying Aug.)

Also, you *can* find those iScan boxes fairly discounted.

tpaxadpom,

I sent you a private message concerning that great price you got your 59 for. If anyone else has a killer price on a 59 please private message me.

Thanks,

Monte

Kage,
Some TVs use the picture modes as just a shorthand for preset values of the user controls. In such cases, you COULD start with any mode and just make all the necessary calibrations from there. Starting from a mode closer to where you want to end up just makes it easier.

But other TVs do things in the background when you select certain picture modes, and you can't undo those from the available user controls. On such TVs it is imperative that you pick a picture mode which doesn't force unwanted, secret "features" on you before you begin to calibrate. The typical culprits here are extra edge enhancements, flesh tone adjusters, and signal filtering such as "digital noise reduction".

It's possible you can find out -- say by asking on the right TV forum here -- whether your TV does any such stuff. But it is almost always safest to start from the mode that begins with the darkest and softest picture.

If your normal viewing lighting is fairly bright, or if the TV designers went too far in darkening the picture for "movie" mode, then you may indeed need to start from a brighter mode. "Standard" is a name often used for the second best choice. Alternatively, you can lighten up your calibration for "movie" mode yourself. Typically you would do this by raising Contrast a few steps to add brighter whites, and then lowering Brightness a step or two to compensate by re-adjusting the black levels. Essentially you will be aiming towards a compromise between "movie" and "standard" choices.

It's OK to trust your eye on this, as long as you give the proper calibration levels a fair chance to sink in and show what they can do.

But the types of settings you'll get with Vivid mode are just wrong. The TV makers push whites towards blues to give the set a false brightness and then have to overly emphasize reds to keep flesh tones from looking awful. The result will catch your eyes in stores but for critical viewing it is just a mess. "Sports" mode is equally offensive. There they push greens to try to make grass on the playing field stand out. And both modes crank up the Sharpness processing ridiculously high.
--Bob

Well Bob, I spent the whole day yesterday working on my display to give the 59 the best possible chance and I am glad that I put in the effort. I fixed the geometry, over-scan, and did a complete convergence on all 3 colors for my 1080i scan rate and I must say it made a big difference. I still have a little more edge enhancement at 1080i than I do at 480p but except for that the picture coming from the 59 at 1080i is excellent. The jitter I was talking about in the highest frequency test patterns has also been reduce greatly (I think the convergence helped this) and I must say this is the best picture I have seen on my monitor ever from a DVD player. The 2900 rivals it in color, contrast, and deinterlacing, and overall picture quality but the added level of detail and the lack of any visible scan lines makes a huge difference it the distraction level that your eyes have to deal with. I have had the 3910 and I truly believe that it had a color space problem even using DVI to DVI at least on my monitor, where as the 59 does its HDMI to DVI correctly. I have a funny feeling that pioneer spent much more time making sure this would work considering that when it was released HDMI displays were not as common and DVI was the previous default connection. However they did it I am very happy that they did it correctly. I truly believe that for a display with a DVI input that this is one of a select group of DVD players that can upscale at 1080i really well without real noticeable artifacts like macro-blocking or increased noise or some other problem like audio sync. Now I need to find a great price on one. If anybody has a dealer that is selling the 59 for a killer price please private message me.

Thanks

dvdmann

Kevin,
The DVI standard doesn't support 480i. Now DVDO has stated that they have a trick in the works for their Iscan products to enable HDMI to DVI into the Iscan at 480i for those players that enable 480i output on HDMI (such as the 59avi), but I don't think it is available yet and I'm not clear on how they are going to make it work, and whether there might be a gotcha or two in there.

If they CAN make it work for input into the Iscan, then sending the de-interlaced and upscaled signal by HDMI from the Iscan to your TV is certainly doable if you have an Iscan with HDMI output or via DVI output cabled to HDMI input on your TV.
--Bob

dvdmann,
Good for you!

I'd suggest you enjoy it for a while and then take another calibration pass to double check all your settings, with particular emphasis on any settings that might deal with problems you see in the movies you watch. The closer you get to "proper" calibration, the more you will become sensitive to errors -- some of which will be in the content itself of course, but some of which will point to additional refinement you need to make in your settings. It really is worth the time to experiment here. Save your current "best" settings in a memory, make a small change, and see if that gets you closer to perfection. And just keep going.

I hope you find the geometry and convergence settings on your CRT less annoying than what i dealt with on an older CRT. I finally got fed up with the constant struggle to keep geometry and convergence adjusted properly on the CRT and switched to a plasma.
--Bob

Good string guys. I'll be happy to share any tips I get from my ISF after dialing in my 59.
I believe he's very experienced with the player. I use a Pio CRT & component.

E

Does an ISF calibration do this or is it an extra item? Seems like a lot of work for a calibration. If it's included, they definately deserve what they get paid. lol fyi, my ISF guy comes highly regarded, so if it's included, I'm sure he'll do it.

Rob, Please place the firmware check instructions as well as the other links posted in this thread in your first post for easy reference.

Firmware check for 59avi:
In Initial Settings->Options, while at this menu press DISPLAY in the remote, at the bottom of the screen you can see the firmware version. There has been 306, 406 and 506.

Thanks

Finally got my two hdmi boards today for my panny Th50PHD7UY and it is SWEET This player and tv combo really are first rate. Thanks for starting this master thread Rob. I was just about to start it myself the other day when I saw your thread as the 59avi info and threads were spread out all over the place. I gave up on watching non anamorphic widescreen dvds with it.

My solution was to hook up my older toshiba dvd player thru component. This dvd player scales non anamorphic and 4:3 content so it's perfect and I only own a few titles in non anamorphic widescreen like The Abyss, 2010 and From Dusk Til Dawn.

Anyone who can scrounge up the dough for this player should really grab it. It produces a phenomenal picture upconverting thru HDMI

I have mine set to 'direct' on the 59 AVi - using HDMI output. IN that mode, there are few user adjustments (no auto 1, 2, etc.). Since the signal is sent 'unmodified' to the projector's HDMI input, all of the picture adjustments are made via the projector only.

Is there a reason, you guys prefer to tweak the DVD player AND projector?

Actually, thebland, I believe you'll find that "HDMI Direct" mode on the 59avi is just a collection of preset values of the user settable picture adjustment controls. It's not some sort of bypass of the video signal processing in the player. It's just the set of settings that happens to do the least to the image.

In particular, if you select, say, Memory 1, you can use the top item in the list of adjustments for Memory 1 to load a whole set of settings into Memory 1 from some other location. If you select "Direct" as the source of that load, the settings you'll get are the factory presets for "HDMI Direct" mode.

Now if you select HDMI Direct as your video option then you can't change anything, or even see what the settings are. But if you load the HDMI Direct settings into a Memory and select that Memory you can see what the actual settings are and change any that you need to change -- which SHOULD only include the Pure Cinema mode setting which defaults to "AUTO1" in the HDMI Direct presets.

So far the ONLY change I've found useful to make to the HDMI Direct presets is to Pure Cinema mode. I now use "AUTO2" as my default setting, with the only change from there being to "ON" in the face of a DVD disc that exhibits the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem.

Of course since the player is doing the de-interlacing, any change (Pure Cinema mode) needed to fix de-interlacing problems HAS to be done on the player side.

But Pure Cinema aside, all normal calibration adjustments SHOULD be made exclusively on the display side.
--Bob

Bob,
I have been following this thread closely and I have a few questions and comments.

First of all, I am running the 59Avi into the Sony HS51 PJ through HDMI. I noticed a great thing tonight. The Sony allows you to select the color space. You can choose Auto, NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, SECAM, etc. I initially was under the impression this player had the colorspace problems. Well tonight I verified that it does not have the colorspace problems. Using the player in 1080i mode and Avia, I notice no green depression on the color decoder. I switched the Sony through each of its settings and noticed no difference. So either the Sony is always decoding the proper signal or the Pioneer does not have this problem. Anyone else looked at this or done any other research on this problem for this player. I may have missed it in other threads.

Also, I used DVE and checked a few things as well. The Enhanced setting under HDMI crushes whites when used in an upconverted mode and I recommend against using it except for one situation. When I run the player in 480i this does not happen. Here is the trick, when running the player in 480i thru HDMI to the Sony, it will not pass below black unless it is set to 7.5 IRE and Enhanced. Using this mode does not crush white either. As a matter of fact, it is the only way to allow the player to produce a proper image in 480i. When moving back to an upconverted mode or 480p, the player will pass below black in either one of these combinations: 7.5 IRE and Enhanced or 0 IRE and Standard. From this I thought either one would work but after veiwing the DVE grayscale ramps you see that using the 7.5 IRE/Enhanced combo in 480p, 720p or 1080i the whites are crushed. On my display, this cannot be fixed with any amount of adjustment. I do not know what this tells us about the Enhanced mode but I would not use it for my display unless I was using the 480i HDMI.

I will also report, I have the 406 firmware and perfect Y/C delay according to Avia. So if people are wondering if 506 was the only firmware to have this fix, I can report it is not.

I hope this adds a bit to the thread. I will post any other findings and if there are any discrepancies in my findings, please let me know. Thanks.

awtryau89,
Your findings re HDMI at 480i are fascinating, and will be particularly important to anyone out there who was thinking of using HDMI 480i output to drive an external scaler.

It's not at all clear to me why you would have to make such an adjustment to get Blacker than Black and Peak White data to pass properly at HDMI 480i.

There's really no good reason why the player should treat HDMI 480i any differently than the other HDMI resolutions, except possibly that the designers thought folks would be using 7.5 IRE and Enhanced blacks settings for Component output at 480i and wanted to match that for HDMI.

In particular, the 0 vs. 7.5 IRE setting has no defined meaning with a digital video output signal, so whatever they player is doing to the HDMI signal when you change that from the HDMI Direct mode's default of 0 to 7.5 is anybody's guess.

Just to be clear here, all of your reported results are with HDMI output connected to the projector's HDMI input right? Not to a DVI input?
--Bob

Bob,
Yes you are correct. I am using HDMI>HDMI. I have used this player HDMI>DVI but I never could try this because DVI will not support 480i. Any other theories to why it works this way would be great. Also if anyone else can double check me on this I would appreciate it.

Good report. My display is DVI only, so I can't double check this for you but I'm sure others here can.

As for the color space issue. While DVI (or HDMI to DVI) requires an RGB signal, HDMI to HDMI can be either an RGB signal or a YPbPr signal.

It's quite possible that what you've found is that in your HDMI to HDMI hookup, what's being sent is an HDMI(RGB) signal. In that case the player will necessarily convert the YPbPr data off the DVD to RGB and send that to your projector. Since your projector now sees an RGB signal it has no color conversion to do and it just uses the RGB data as sent from the player. If this is what is going on then you have verified that the 59avi is correctly using the 601 color matrix to convert YPbPr to RGB when sending out HDMI(RGB) at any resolution.

The fact that the settings on your projector made no difference would match this assumption, since they would only come into play if the projector needed to convert from YPbPr to RGB itself -- which it doesn't have to do if fed an RGB signal.

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Back to the Blacks/Whites issue: I just want to be clear again here that you are adjusting between 0 and 7.5 IRE in the "Black Setup" option and between Standard and Enhanced in the "HDMI Color Adjust" option, correct?

If so, it would appear that "HDMI Color Adjust" despite it's name and the very confusing description in the manual, is actually a toggle between video-style (Standard--the default) and PC-style (Enhanced) digital video encoding. Video-style encoding would send Black as 16, and would pass Blacker than Black and Peak White normally. PC-style encoding would send Black as 0, thus clipping any Blacker than Black data. But despite that, the specific combination of 7.5/Enhanced/480i HDMI output does "the right thing" anyway.
--Bob

I just returned my 2910 and ordered a 59avi. I can't wait.

Bob - what plasma are you hooked up to? I have a Fujitsu P50 and will be getting an HDMI->DVI adapter since I have a very good DVI cable already.

One thing I don't quite get about HDMI output...shouldn't it be "pure"/un-modified since the signal is digital on the DVD? Why is there any need for tweaking on the player side (aside from resolution output)? I'm thinking I'll likely stick with 480p since the scalar in my P50 is very good.

Bob,
I really like your logic and even though I am trying these things you can somehow explain it better than I can.

As far as the Blacks/Whites issue, the settings I am trying are achieved as follows:

I go into the video adjust menu, I got to Memory 1 and Detailed Settings. Once in Detailed Settings, I switch the user mode to Direct then enter. This takes you out of Video Settings. I then go back in and back to Memory 1 and Detailed Settings and all the Direct functions are saved for me. On the first screen I change the deinterlacer from Auto 1 to Auto 2 as perscribed by Secrets. I then change Black Level to 0 from 7.5 or vice versa depending on which mode I am sending the Sony. On the last screen which is the third screen, I change the HDMI Color Adjust to Enhanced or Normal depending on which mode I am sending the PJ. I am pretty sure this is what you are talking about here. If it is not please let me now but this is how I am arriving at my conclusions.

As far as the colorspace issue, I think you have just explained that to me as well. Even though the Sony has an HDMI input and accepts a 480i signal, the display on the 59AVi always shows DVI 480i, 720p or 1080i depending on what I am sending. The Pioneer is obviously seeing a DVI connection on the other end during the handshake. In the manual, it tells you the display will show HDMI or DVI depending on what it senses. Well it makes sense that the Sony would be a DVI type connection because HDMI also carries audio and the Sony is a PJ and cannot do the audio. If this is the case, the Sony's HDMI is a DVI connection, then what you stated about the conversion to RGB and colorspace is correct.

One more thing which has nothing to do with the Pioneer. I also have a Hughes HTL-HD sattelite box. It has a DVI output and I use DVI to HDMI through a Gefen HDMI switcher. It also has a Standard/Enhanced function. When using this, I find that the picture severly crushes Blacks in Enhanced mode. I really cannot tell what it does to whites. So I am against using Enhanced for any display unless you can tell it to decode as a PC type signal. I did have this option on an Epson PJ I had and it would make things work with Enhanced modes.

I did go back and check my build date because of the Y/C delay issues and it is Feb 2004. The unit was purchased in April of 2004 and it does have 406 Firmware. It has no delay at all that I can see. Everything lines up perfect at 0. I wonder what the differences in 406 and 506 are but the fix obviously occurred in the 406 firmware. Someone has to be able to get to a Pioneer engineer and find this out for us.

Eric,
That's just what I was looking for. Neat!

So the mystery of the "HDMI Color Adjust" menu item appears to be solved! Just ignore what it says in the manual and think of it as PC vs video style digital encoding, with the Standard (default) setting giving the preferred video-style result.

The item you report about the front panel display showing DVI instead of HDMI may just be a displayed text bug. I.e., they forgot to use "HDMI" instead of "DVI" in that text. Or possibly they use "DVI" by mistake because the player decided to send out HDMI(RGB) instead of HDMI(YPbPr).

===>> Has anyone else using the 59avi connected HDMI to HDMI seen the front panel display "HDMI" text when it shows the connection resolution, or are all of you seeing "DVI" as well?<<====

In any event, the RGB output option from HDMI, if that's what's going on, is a perfectly acceptable choice for the designers to make. Since you can get a 480i signal that way, you know the player really has recognized your projector as an HDMI device, so it's not that confused.

I'm not familiar enough with the HDMI standard to know whether or not an RGB vs. YPbPr preference on the display's end is something that gets negotiated during the initial connection handshake. It could be the 59avi *ONLY* sends RGB out via HDMI -- which might be important to folks thinking of using an external scaler. Or it could be that your projector indicated a preference for RGB input, and thus that's what the 59avi sent out. Of course we're still just guessing that the color adjustment findings you achieved are really due to the 59avi sending out HDMI(RGB), but it certainly seems to fit the results!

As for the firmware; yes it would be useful if someone could develop a source at Pioneer who could explain what changed in each firmware level. But keep in mind that this player design also exists in a European version, so it's possible the change from 406 to 506 doesn't even affect the US version.
--Bob

goombawa,
My display is a Fujitsu P50 (30 series) plasma. I have it connected HDMI to DVI from the 59avi, and currently I'm under the impression that I like the image I get using 1080i best. I'm still a bit puzzled why that should be so. It would seem that 480p or 720p SHOULD work better, but 1080i is what I've latched onto.

Over the next month or so I plan to do a re-calibration pass and I'll try this experiment again.

As for tweaking things in the player; except for resolution, aspect ratio control, and the de-interlacing mode there's really nothing you should have to touch once you set the 59avi to the default settings found in "HDMI Direct" mode.

Obviously you need to pick the resolution you want to use. You also have to decide how you want the 59avi to handle any DVDs with 4:3 content. But you also have to keep an eye on the de-interlacing mode -- i.e., "Pure Cinema", the setting that determines how the player handles de-interlacing problems in the face of possible film or video frame rate content coming off the DVD.

Resolution is an experiment you'll need to do for yourself.

If your plasma is brand new, you should limit the amount of time you watch any content with letterbox or pillarbox black bars for the first couple hundred hours to give the phosphors all over the screen an equal chance to get their initial burn-in done. On the 59avi, that means selecting "HDMI 16:9 Wide" mode -- which is the default -- so that 4:3 content DVDs are stretched left and right to fill the 16:9 frame of your display.

Once the plasma's phosphors have had a chance to settle down, you may very well want to switch that to "HDMI 16:9 Compressed" mode which will cause the 59avi to automatically detect 4:3 content, even scene by scene if you have such a DVD, and to generate black pillar box bars on either side of it so as to preserve the original aspect ratio. My recommendation is that "Compressed" mode be used in combination with a high res output setting -- 720p or 1080i -- since that gives the 59avi plenty of extra resolution to generate those pillarbox bars without damaging the resolution of the 4:3 content (particularly it's color resolution) nestled in between them.

The default for Pure Cinema is "AUTO1". Based on the Secrets testing, and some trials I've made that satisfy me it doesn't cause any significant problems, I now agree with Secrets that you should Switch this and use "AUTO2" as your default setting for film vs. video detection and proper de-interlacing.

However there is one exception to this. Once the movie starts playing, hit Display twice to bring up the second page of on-screen display info and look for the "#" symbol in the lower left corner of that second page. If the"#" is flashing then the DVD you are playing likely has the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem -- most commonly reported on older Disney DVDs. In that case, it is best to change Pure Cinema to "ON" to force film mode processing -- but only for the duration of that DVD. Change it back to "AUTO2" when you are done. For other cases -- "#" solidly on or "#" solidly off -- "AUTO2" should work just fine for you.
--Bob

Since you have the exact same plasma as I do, you are now my new best friend. Once I get my 59avi I'll post here with my impressions and compare notes with you on your 59/P50 combo, e.g., Fine mode, 480p v. 1080i, etc.

One note about viewing 4:3 material and the initial "break in" period. I didn't watch any 4:3 for 100 hours but after that period about 30% of my viewing was in 4:3 for the next few months. The result - I have 4:3 burn in, i.e., the sides are slightly brighter than the center. Since I had just bought this panel in 1/04 and the problem showed up 6 months later, you can imagine how immensely upset I was (and still am). It is not that noticeable unless you look for it, but when you do it is clearly there. Any sky scenes or snow scenes and it is more than a little noticeable. I want to try using my PC to do a "reverse burn in" with white bars/black center but don't know where to find the right image.

So for those people who just bought a plasma, it is my recommendation to watch less than 20% 4:3 and/or use the white screen for 15 min before turning off the panel even after the break in period. JMO, your mileage may vary.

Yes, I watch all SDTV in stretched mode (which I'm used to so it's no biggie for me), and so I'm only pillarboxing 4:3 DVDs, which are a small portion of my watching.

That just leaves letterboxed movies to watch out for. So far no problems.
--Bob

I use my Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi with my Pioneer Elite PRO-730HDi TV set in 1080i. The 59AVi front panel shows "HDMI 1080i". So it does recognize HDMI input on TV side during the handshaking.

Rob,
Yes, the HDMI output is REQUIRED to recognize whether it is talking to a DVI or HDMI device to make sure it does things "the DVI way" when connected to a DVI device. For example, no 480i output and always sending an RGB formated signal.

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tpaxadpom,
What's the firmware level on your 59avi that properly displays "HDMI" when it shows the resolution in the front panel? Perhaps this was something fixed in the transition from the 406 to the 506 firmware.
--Bob

My two cents.

I have the firmware 506 59 feeding a Phelps calibrated JVC HX1 via HDMI out, DVI in.

Y/C spot on, according to Avia.

I keep trying to convince myself otherwise, but 1080i looks better.

I use Direct Mode, but changed to Auto 2.

Great thread. I'll be here often. Super resource.

James

I'll put this here, since probably most 59AVi owners are here...

In another thread, has been some discussion about the player's ability to play DVD-R's. I have exactly one disc a friend's friend made on a DVR/DVD burner box. Anyway, wouldn't play on my player, or my wife's Pio DV-333, or my PC DVD drive. Other's have mentioned *some* problems playing DVD-R's.

Finally made it to Frys today, and the disc wouldn't play on a Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Philips, or Onkyo players. So at least in this case, it isn't the 59AVi. My friend says his friend can play it on the unit that made it. But now I'm wondering if he "finalized" the disc or not (or something else). fyi.