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Pioneer Elite 59avi Owners Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 2187
There's another thread here where people have reported problems replaying these user created DVDs that are caused by simply putting a label on the backside of the DVD. I suppose the disc isn't spinning uniformly or some such.

When you think about the mechanical tolerances involved, it's amazing this stuff works at all -- much less working reliably.
--Bob
post #62 of 2187
Quote:


Originally posted by dvdmann
Bob thanks for checking this out. So it is safe to assume that this perception of jitter is normal for a 1080i signal on any display that displays 1080i at 1080i. I just wanted to be sure that it is not a defect in the 59 or my 65813. Your explanation makes good sense and it would be nice if another 59 avi owner could verify this same jitter on their display viewing a 1080 HDMI signal from the 59avi into their display viewing it at a 1080i display rate. Maybe someone else will chime in.

I'm using HDMI to connect my 59Avi to a Pio Elite 1110HD plasma. Pio engineered both HDMI systems, so this *should* be as good-as-it-gets in terms of compatibility...

With 3:2 pulldown, a wee bit of judder (I think jitter is an audio thing) will still be present because 24 frames per second of film doesn't *quite* match up with 60Hz.

Just to make it even more confusing, several of the recent Pio plasmas (4340 / 4345 / 910 / 920 / 5040 / 5045 / 1110 / 1120) can do a 3:3 pulldown (called by their marketing folks "advanced pureCinema") which ups the display's refresh rate to 72 Hz, which is an even multiple of 24 (i.e., 24 x 3 = 72). Hence the 24 film frames can be triplicated and lined up with the 72 video frames.

I have gone absolutely nuts trying different combos of ON / OFF / AUTO1 / AUTO2 on the 59Avi with ON / STD / ADV on the display (STD = 3:2 pulldown) with 480i, 480p, 720p and 1080i signals over HDMI. I have *not* been able to find a combo that works best with all material. FWIW, I'm currently using AUTO1 on the 59Avi with ADV on the display, upconverted to 1080i.

As an aside, the 59Avi also addresses audio jitter if you connect it to an iLink Pio receiver such as the 55Txi or 59Txi (I'm using the former). When you use the iLink, the decoding clock on the 59Avi is locked to the receiver clock using a system called PQLS (Pioneer Quartz Locking System). When I fire up a CD or DVD-A, the 59Avi display momentarily flashes "PQLS" to alert (advertise?) the lock is in place.

One other point. If you put a DVD-A in the 59Avi with HDMI activated, it won't play high bitrate audio (> 96Khz) over iLink due to HDCP issues. Even though I'm using HDMI for video only, I have to disable the HDMI out in order to get the 59Avi to play. This is not an issue for CD, DVD video, SACD, or DVD-A in low bitrate (e.g., DD or DTS) mode. A minor nuisance since I have exactly 1 DVD-A title...

Ross
post #63 of 2187
Ross,
What dvdmann was referring to when he wrote "jitter" was actually a case of interlace related flicker with thin horizontal lines at 1080i.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The conflict you found re high-res audio over I-link for DVD-Audio when HDMI video is also activated is an important gotcha that DVD-Audio fans should be aware of if they are going to get a 59avi.

I don't know whether or not this is common to other DVD-Audio players that also have I-link audio and HDMI (or DVI) video outputs.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Pioneer plasmas, and their available 72Hz refresh rate (36 frames/sec), certainly should show better results given film rate DVD content. The idea is that a 24fps movie off the DVD can only be sped up to the 30fps rate of conventional TV by duplicating portions of the film frames unequally. Some frames get more screen time than other frames. But if you up the frame rate to 36fps you can give every film frame equal billing on screen (duplicate one half frame or "field" from every frame).

I spent quite some time trying to find real-world cases where the 72Hz rate of the Pio plamas made a significant difference in real world movies, but in the end decide to go with the better blacks of the Fujitsu plasma despite it's mere 60hz rate.
--Bob
post #64 of 2187
Thread Starter 
Here is a link to a download of the discrete codes for the 59avi in MX700 format posted by Kir:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...51#post4782551

I will add this to the first page as well.
post #65 of 2187
Everybody keeps talking about PQ here but noone makes comparisons in AUDIO quality.Me I could care less about PQ.If I had my way I would buy a player that was a universal player that didn't do video.How is the audio compared to say the Esoteric in terms of SACD playback?I haven't been impressed with any of Denon,Pioneer or Marantz for that matter.
post #66 of 2187
While I can't comment about some of the mega buck players in terms of sound quality, I've never heard better sound quality from any CD or DVD player than what I'm getting with my i-linked 59 AVi.
post #67 of 2187
Thought some of the 59 AVi owners here would be interested in hearing what Stereophile A/V has to say about the 59 AVi...

"This is one of the best DVD players on the market, regardless of price. The images produced by the Pioneenr were nearly impossible to fault in either interlaced or progressive component mode."
post #68 of 2187
Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Ross,
What dvdmann was referring to when he wrote "jitter" was actually a case of interlace related flicker with thin horizontal lines at 1080i.

Just so I'm clear; both jitter and judder (the latter I describe as non-smooth or jerky movement of panned images) can be used to describe de-interlacing artifacts...?

Ross
post #69 of 2187
Quote:


Originally posted by graphicguy
Thought some of the 59 AVi owners here would be interested in hearing what Stereophile A/V has to say about the 59 AVi...

"This is one of the best DVD players on the market, regardless of price. The images produced by the Pioneenr were nearly impossible to fault in either interlaced or progressive component mode."

I'd agree....Really an excellent value for a solid player. I look at it as a great transitional player until BluRay arrives....and even after it does, I'll keeo the 59AVi for DVD duties.
post #70 of 2187
Ross,
Sure. Nobody owns those words. It's just that your description of improperly shaky camera pans (poor handling of film to video frame rate conversion) is what those who know the secret handshake tend to call "judder" -- kind of a jumpy shudder -- meanwhile the digital audio Illuminati have appropriated "jitter" to mean one of various audible artifacts resulting from improper agreement on the clocking of a digital audio signal between two devices.

Meanwhile, what dvdmann saw would probably be called "flicker" by folks trying not to confuse it with jitter or judder.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Years ago I used to study something called the "history and philosophy of science," one subfield of which included the study of how important discoveries got delayed for years, sometimes for decades, because the people working on the issue in different countries couldn't agree on what to call things and couldn't understand each other's definitions. For example, what precisely is "work", and how does it differ from "heat", and "energy"?
--Bob
post #71 of 2187
tunerguy,
Audio quality is a valid debate to be sure, but you'd probably get more interest in debating this in one of the "brand x vs. brand y" threads. Folks following THIS thread have already MADE their buying decision -- for now at least.
--Bob
post #72 of 2187
just trying to make an educated (possible) buying desision.I
ve been using a 999ES for SACD & I would like my player to be as good of quality or else I pass it by.
post #73 of 2187
How does the 59 handle BM? Does it have a adjustable crossover or is it fixed like the Denon pieces?
post #74 of 2187
tunerguy,
SACD is not my thing, but when I was doing my own research on the 59avi it appeared to me that folks who had thought deeply about this preferred the Denon products (in a universal player), and similar comments have been coming from the folks who've looked closely at the Onkyo SP-1000 and its more expensive clones that carry the Integra label. There's a recent thread on buying decisions between the Denon 3910 and the Pioneer 59avi owners that might be of interest to you. There are also others who claim that SACD would best be handled by a dedicated audio player.

And yet there are obviously many satisfied 59avi owners who listen to SACD.

Unfortunately (I suppose) since audio is nigh unto perfect from any of the players mentioned here in any measurable sense, all such evaluations tend to be heavily in the nature of subjective claims. And the more exotic the amps and speakers used by the reviewer the farther afield such claims are from what an owner with more normal equipment might encounter.

The most important concern I've heard raised about the 59avi for SACD is that it doesn't provide Time Alignment for SACD over it's analog audio outputs. Thus you either need a receiver that can add Time Alignment to multi-channel analog audio inputs, or you need to invest in a receiver that will take an I-link digital audio connection from the 59avi.
--Bob
post #75 of 2187
great thread. The only thing I can add is one minor peculiarity with my SACD playback:

The Police hybrid SACD: Every Breathe You Take is VERY sporadic in being able to play SACD modes. Sometimes when I load it, it will only play CD format. Weird...

NOTE: I did all the typical things, even exchanged the CD. It's just this one source material with this problem...
post #76 of 2187
Bob Pariseau,
going back to HDMI 1080i on the front panel display.
The firmware I have is 1.506 (16), av1 2.0/2.8.

As far as the sound quality goes I would definately recommend to upgrade the power cable. I built flavor 3 VenHaus power cord (http://www.venhaus1.com/diymains.html). Chris (the owner of VenHaus)sells all the parts you need to build this cable. You can purchase this cable pre-built if you don't want to spend your time on building one.
Also I noticed that the power cable changed the brightnes and color/tint settings. I had to readjust TV settings after I've changed it.
post #77 of 2187
I guess its a good time for me to check in. I picked up a loaner 59AVi last Mon. and will receive my new unit next week.

Firmware: 506
Display: Panasonic 37PD25U
Connection: HDMI
Resolution: 480p
Calibration: Avia
Video Adj.: Direct/Auto 2

This particular player has had no problems with the 4 DVD-Rs I have tried thus far. After a good shakedown a JVB digital codefree mod will be installed.

I hope more owners will check in so that we can get a better picture on the build quality of the 59AVi. .
post #78 of 2187
Thread Starter 
Here is an update on my DVD-R situation.

After more testing, I have been able to play some DVD-R's on the 59avi. It comes down to what method of burning was used. If it was a 100% direct copy of another disc, they work fine in the 59avi. If certain items were removed, those will NOT work, despite the fact that they work on all my other players.

Strange. But at least now I know that I can play some DVD-R's on the 59avi.
post #79 of 2187
Intresting! I never had any problems playing DV-R's. I tried quite a few, from cheapest CompUsa brand to Memorex 8X. They all worked with no problems. It may be the way you burn those DVD-R's that cause trouble.
Question regarding multiregion mod. Do you still have to purchase an outboard Pal - NTSC converter?
post #80 of 2187
Careful, guys. The DVD Player Forum rules prohibit discussion of details on copying stuff. Let's not get this thread closed.

Keep the discussion to 59avi issues for PLAYING these DVDs -- not how you managed to get them made in the first place. In the case where playback failure is related to how things were made, some PMs would probably be the best way to continue the discussion.
--Bob
post #81 of 2187
Quote:
The most important concern I've heard raised about the 59avi for SACD is that it doesn't provide Time Alignment for SACD over it's analog audio outputs. Thus you either need a receiver that can add Time Alignment to multi-channel analog audio inputs, or you need to invest in a receiver that will take an I-link digital audio connection from the 59avi.

Or, if your room allows, there's always the no-expense option: get out a length of string or measuring tape and place all your speakers equidistant to the listening/viewing position.

(And, of course, re-calibrate time alignment for all digital sources to "0", as no digital delay is now necessary.)
post #82 of 2187
Quote:
Originally posted by tpaxadpom
Question regarding multiregion mod. Do you still have to purchase an outboard Pal - NTSC converter?

PAL to NTSC conversion is performed by the onboard de-interlacer/scaler chip on some players, but not the 59AVi.
post #83 of 2187
Bluesea,
There's a European variant of the 59avi that carries a different model number. Do you know if that one has more flexibility for PAL/NTSC?
--Bob
post #84 of 2187
Quote.." The Sony allows you to select the color space. You can choose Auto, NTSC 3.58, NTSC 4.43, PAL, SECAM, etc. I initially was under the impression this player had the colorspace problems. Well tonight I verified that it does not have the colorspace problems."

This is true but the Sony and several dozen other PJ's are stretching the truth somewhat when they refer to their products as High Definition . If we feed them Standard Definition (BT.601) "data" from any DVD player , we will get a great picture with higher vertical resolution but still in SD colorspace . The problem arises when we feed them true HD (BT.709) "data" . If the particular PJ does not offer an option to change to HD colorspace , then this "better" input will be wasted .

From all the owners manuals available for download , it appears none of the LCD PJ's have this option and only DLP PJ"s over $5k have it (please update me if you find something different). For those with HD Plasma sets , it would be interesting to see if this is available to you . Not a great concern for those of us watching DVD or Satellite at present .

Scott.........................
post #85 of 2187
Hello, man this is a lot of information on the 59avi. I am just starting to think about replacing my old DVD player that I am using now, but have a question first if I may.

I have the Pioneer Elite 49 TXi receiver and I am getting a new Sony KDF-60XS955 television. How would I hook this set up to the DVD player (59avi).

Right now my old DVD is connected to the 49 TXi, matter of fact, all my components are connected to the 49 TXi. first. Is it better to connect the 59 avi directly to the TV. Or is it OK to connect it to the receiver first.

I hope you all can help someone that seems to be in the dark when it come to connecting this equipment up.

Thank you for your time and replies.
post #86 of 2187
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Bluesea,
There's a European variant of the 59avi that carries a different model number. Do you know if that one has more flexibility for PAL/NTSC?
--Bob

Hi Bob,
Unfortunately I do not have any info on the euro version. Also, I wanted to express my thanks to you and others for sharing your wealth of knowledge on the 59AVi--it has been most helpful in the setting up of my player.

In terms of the iScanHD+ and its projected implementation of 480i through HDMI, at this point I'll have to regard it as a theoretical possiblity at best. It seems at this point that SDI is the way to go. Kris Deering made an interesting comment (in the locked 5910 thread) that the true test of these scalers was in how they can improve bad material.
post #87 of 2187
micro,
If you are going to take advantage of the 59avi's digital video output (HDMI connection) then you will have to cable the video directly from the player to your TV since your 49txi receiver is not equipped to switch digital video from different sources -- i.e., it is not an HDMI switcher.

Meanwhile you would send digital AUDIO from the 59avi directly to your receiver and you would simply ignore the audio that is also going out on the HDMI cable. You could use optical/coax digital audio connection, or if the 49txi has an I-link input you'd be even better off using an I-link cable. However I think that Pioneer starts I-link support only at the 56txi level receiver.

To select your DVD player for playback then, you would need to select that source on your receiver for audio and also on your TV for video. This is easier to do if you use one of the various programmable remote controls that can record multiple commands to be sent out for one button press.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alternatively, if you were going to use Component (analog) video connections to your TV -- for instance if it doesn't have an HDMI or DVI digital video input -- then you could hook them up through the 49txi so that it could switch video sources for you as well as selecting the player as the audio source. The 59avi will only send 480i or 480p out via its Component video outputs (no 720p or 1080i), so if your 49txi is capable of switching Component video at all, it will have no bandwidth problems if the 59avi is connected as one of its selectable Component video sources.
--Bob
post #88 of 2187
Micro, Some say that 1080i via HDMI to the Sony display works great. I am not sure why as I would think 480P would be better. Who knows. You'll need to try it out yourself. 788P is an odd bird.
post #89 of 2187
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Careful, guys. The DVD Player Forum rules prohibit discussion of details on copying stuff. Let's not get this thread closed.

Keep the discussion to 59avi issues for PLAYING these DVDs -- not how you managed to get them made in the first place. In the case where playback failure is related to how things were made, some PMs would probably be the best way to continue the discussion.
--Bob

Thanks Bob, I edited my post accordingly.
post #90 of 2187
I've had my 59 for about 2 months and have been extrememly pleased. The HDMI cable that I had was not working, so I've been running Component through my 56txi. I thought the picture on my Panny 700 looked fabulous. Well, this weekend, I finally got around to replacing my HDMI cable and I must say tht the picture difference is significant. I put in the new Fifth Element and did some comparisons by swithching from HDMI to Component. My wife and I immediately noticed that the HDMI connection was much better. It was brighter and showed more detail. For example, there's a scene when we're first introduced to Milla Jojovich (when she's in the tank) that has the two men talking about her at the control panel. The one military gentlman has on a dark V-neck sweater and a dark tie. With component, it was a little hard to tell where the sweater ended and where the tie started. With the HDMI, not only was this very clear, but you could also see the knot of the tie very clearly where you could not on the Component.

Thanks to all in this thread for providing the tweaks and if you're debating whether or not to go HDMI, I say DO IT.



Stew
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