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Anyone using Milori Colorfacts Pro? - Page 3  

post #61 of 137
When I used the Eye-One off the screen the lumens values were much less than the projector - and dark readings were painful. This of course is reading angle not same as viewing angle, absorption and diffusion.

Of course not having proper lumens means bad contrast/gamma/ftL readings - but you can still get decent greyscale

When i use the Spyder on the projector - I achieve manufacturers ratings for contrast/gamma/ftL - and I have to trust the screen does not damage the greyscale and the sensor color points have not drifted

So having them both to compensate for each others weaknesses sounds like maybe a good idea! That is the expert part of the system that the user has to supply - knowing when the tools are lying!

My new Spyder came with a honeycomb looking light pipe with a holographic filter on it- this assembly is for reading LCD panels. Have not tried it yet.

Tom,

There may be RPTV problems depending what exactly what type of screen material is being used - check with Milori.

The trick I use to aim the Spyder for FP is to use the aim meter white field. The white diffusion surface on the sensor functions as a mirror and you can see a spot on the opposite wall. Aim the spot in the direction of the audience.
post #62 of 137
Quote:
Originally posted by krasmuzik
I thought the Eye-One was a $600 upgrade if you already had ColorFacts Pro?

Maybe better to spend my money on a HD generator.

Currently with ColorFacts Pro you get license files or USB dongles that tie you to specific meter firmwares (not serial number). Since they change the firmware to suit their needs - you just can't buy the OEM sensor.

Infocus tech is in China - maybe something for a future AVS meet.

We compared the Eye-One to the Spyder1 at the last meet - made me realize I had to send in for a replacement Spyder.
You probably are already aware of this, but just in case you are not, the disadvantage of the old modified Colorvision Spyder sensor is that the filters don't track the Standard Observer Curve well. Both the Eye-One and the Trichromat sensors are much more accurate with a wide variety of light sources than the older sensor was. Either one would be a worthwhile upgrade. It sounds like Colorvision has changed their Spyder. Have they improved the filters? From your post, it sounds like the light pipe is removeable. Is it?

If I had Colorfacts and the Eye-One, I would use the Eye-One to set the PJ to D65 at 100 IRE off the screen. Then I would use the other colorimeter pointed at the lens to read the x,y coordinates at 100 IRE and set the whole greyscale to those coordinates. Best of both worlds. The Eye-One is more accurate with a variety of light sources at high brightness levels. The other colorimeter is faster and is probably more accurate at setting those same levels down into the lower IREs.

All these sensors require periodic factory calibration. Supposed to be done annually. The last time I checked, recalibration of the OpticOne sensor was $100. I expect that the Eye-One and Milori Trichromat are similar, but can't recall ever seeing anything about it in print. The Spyder can't be re-calibrated, but Mark offered a very reasonable replacement price for it once it came to light that the sensors were going out of calibration.

Quote:
Originally posted by krasmuzik

So having them both to compensate for each others weaknesses sounds like maybe a good idea! That is the expert part of the system that the user has to supply - knowing when the tools are lying!

My new Spyder came with a honeycomb looking light pipe with a holographic filter on it- this assembly is for reading LCD panels. Have not tried it yet.

The trick I use to aim the Spyder for FP is to use the aim meter white field. The white diffusion surface on the sensor functions as a mirror and you can see a spot on the opposite wall. Aim the spot in the direction of the audience.
It is recommended that a calibrator have some kind of Optical Comparator to double check his results. The Optical Comparators require annual calibration, just like the sensors. In lieu of this, I use a special D65 light that is only turned on to check the calibration of the colorimeter.

The aiming system on Colorfacts is designed so that you end up with the trichromat sensor aimed at the lens of the PJ (the same as with the other systems), where it should be aimed, not at the audience for the reasons I posted above. As I recall, the old Spyder wasn't as sensitive to aiming errors as my OpticOne trichromat sensor is. Still, I would suggest that you check whether aiming the sensor at the audience skews the readings as compared to aiming it at the lens.

Glenn
post #63 of 137
"The Spyder2 state-of-the-art optical science and new light detectors deliver a five-fold increase in sensitivity. A new filter pack system and patent-protected light baffle further increase the accuracy of on-screen color"

I think I got a Spyder2 in a Spyder1 case (minor label change). I never bought into the claims of Spyder1 not being as good (aside from age drift) - Rather it seems ColorVision refused to do business with them once they got the Eye-One - so they had to go with the Trichomat. Do I think that Milori used the age drift issue to get people to upgrade rather than refurb? Sure! I got nowhere with my refurb demands for years - until magically I got my RMA approved. This only happened after ColorVision bought Milori!

So lets see what the comparisons say if they support the Spyder2 officially - and if I was ColorVision - one would think that Milori should get that out yesterday! Why should they sell a competing sensor - it's bad business! I tend to take technical claims with a grain of salt when there are business issues at hand - so who knows. Other people say every ISFer out there using these cheap sensors is ripping people off for not using a $25K sensor! As long as my customers are happy when I leave - that is all that matters!

The one thing I am sure of - when the sensor companies have a new sensor to sell us - they will be all over how they old sensor is no good and how we could we possibly have done any calibrations with it. So please buy our new one (so we can stay in business!) ;-)

Interesting about the aiming - I was always going vertical to match the screen bounce angle back to the audience. But you do have to turn it significantly to lose your measured aim - so I don't think this is too much a problem. But now you got me wanting to get an angle mount rather than flat mount for my tripod!
post #64 of 137
Glenned:

Thanks for your insight on the OpticOne sensor. ISF and Sencore promote reading off the screen and maybe that is a result of their apparent partnership in doing the seminars.

I've done calibrations on the same system with the trichromate pointed both directions, and my sense was that the loss of resolution at low IREs was greater than any error from reading off the screen.

How can one argue with Cliff? I'll go back to aiming at the pj.
post #65 of 137
I have Colorfacts with Eye-One sensor. You can increase the exposure time to get more stable result at the low IRE level. Eye-One has no problem to measure the gray scale of 30-100IRE.

I've compared Studiotek and Grayhawk at the same setup. There are around 20% of color shift. I also compared the white matte from different manufacture at the same setup. The difference is less, around 5%.

I do consider to order Trichromat-1. If it can't get more accurated result than Eye-one when the sensor is facing the screen, I will give up the upgrade package.
post #66 of 137
30-100IRE works well with my one-eye now but how do you increase the exposure?
post #67 of 137
Thread Starter 
Guys...

This is getting more complicated than I've thought. If you keep on discussing more I'll be scared off buying one :)

I hope these things come with "calibration for dummies" type of manuals otherwise I'll be lost.
post #68 of 137
ColorFacts has plenty of help built into the CF program describing most all functions Murat.
There is also a "Wizard" that takes you through a complete calibration (run). This wizard is great getting you started and helps a novice to understand how things work. Using it a few times will allow you to create your own methodology for calibration. It's really very easy to use.

....................
"30-100IRE works well with my one-eye now but how do you increase the exposure?"//Tom

Tom, pull down "edit" then get into "options" at the bottom then "timings" tab.
I'm not running CF right now, using my memory but that sounds close. :)
post #69 of 137
Don't be scared off. When I got colofacts the last time I had a little head start by asking for some imput. I got was a simple point and shoot and results were great.

RGB-brightess for 40IRE and down and RGB-contrast for 50ire and up.

If you just drag down each colorfacts menu at the top you'll understand what you need.

1. connect to the meter
2. Take a dark reading
3. 80IRE and aim the meter
4. contiuous reading and choose the RGB icon box.

First time out they told me to start at 80IRE bop over to 30IRE then back again to 80IRE then work your way inbetween.

Sounds easy.

After you're done you do a grayscale reading and the results show you how close you are plus you get a gamma reading.

Ok now I have a question. After my otb graysale reading the gamma showed up at around 3.1. The grayscale wasn't too far off of 65k, red was a four hundred low, green was right on, blue was a couple of hundred high. Do we have some kind of control or easy method to obtain nearer to 2.2? Or how do you handle it, I was already using the lowest gamma in the user area?
post #70 of 137
Thanks Jimmy, ok I've been there in the options area, i'll take a look tonight. I still haven't got around to doing a proper CR reading. I got the method now, use one of my mic stands with the tripod or maybe a step ladder would be safer. :)

lol, I also have to get my LED's under control. The HK7200amp lights up like a xmas tree, the H77 has a gleaming blue light that's on all the time. I'll be going around like William Phelps taping off LED's.
post #71 of 137
Quote:
Originally posted by CKL
I have Colorfacts with Eye-One sensor. You can increase the exposure time to get more stable result at the low IRE level. Eye-One has no problem to measure the gray scale of 30-100IRE.
This would depend entirely on the light output, not the IRE level. The Gretag Eye One needs quite a bit of light to be in it's accurate operating range. I tested this unit when Gretag first introduced it and was very disappointed with it. I had documented the levels required for reasonable accuracy at the time but no longer have the data. You also need to take frequent dark samples, it drifts fairly quickly. I found it unuseable because of this.

As a check, try taking several readings at the same level (low) over a period of a few minutes. You should be able to get readings that are consistent in both coordinates and luminance - if not, then any readings will be suspect.

One technique I developed which is applicable to single lens projectors is to use a piece of the same screen material held nearer the projector, with the sensor reading the light reflected from this. Experiment with placement until you are operating the Eye One near it's upper limit at 100 IRE.

William
post #72 of 137
Speak of the devil, hi Bill good to hear from you.

A small mat white screen close to the projector or you could bring the projector over to the screen. I'll give it a try.
post #73 of 137
Quote:
Originally posted by guitarman
Speak of the devil, hi Bill good to hear from you.
Who are you talking to? Surely not me! :rolleyes:

William
(post no Bills, please)
post #74 of 137
On a related topic....

Other that Blue filters and the human eye, do any calibration tools help calibrate saturation and hue?

I have an HT1000. I can tell with the blue filter that it is adjusted close, but not perfect. For $3K-4K, I would have thought the calibration tools would help in making this adjustment.

Also, the HT1000 does not have saturation and hue controls (at least for the DVI input), but individual RGBCYM and color gain controls. Although I am sure this is preferred over the basic saturation and hue adjustments, it is a few too many degrees of freedom for me. Any tips on how to make this adjustment?


Wavy
post #75 of 137
William:

You have a particualrly respected opinion. Do you know or I should say will you offer an opinion for me regarding the OpticOne/ProgressiveLabs/AviaPro package vs the ColorFacts with Trichomat package?

Would the former do as good a job for a single lens DLP front projector vs CF?

With your screen agains the lens tip, were you then happy with the EyeOne?

Thanks very much for your time to help,
Scott
post #76 of 137
Avia has a flashing colours test (blue bars IIRC) with blue transparent plastic held in front of the eyes, and that allows you to adjust hue and saturation.

Tom,

I ended up with a gamma of 2.5 after adding filters which corrected the excess blue and green. Sounds like your colors are the same as my H77 was out of the box, and the CR was 2300:1. The best CR I managed to get was 2600:1 though.

I'm sure there's more to be had, but I don't know how to unrestrain the pj to allow full contrast just using the current menu options. I haven't increased the white point setting from zero as it did some odd things at times, but if someone knows how to get more CR, please let me know. :)

Gary.
post #77 of 137
Wavy

That is what the SpyderTV consumer product supposedly does - discussed earlier in the thread. And if somebody can buy a product to adjust these controls with the sensor - they better add this feature to the product I am using to calibrate! At least so I can use the sensor - and show them how I can do it by eye better (I hope anyways!).

BTW - the AVIA blue filters are close - not perfect! Don't let them mislead you - you can push cyan green if you try to get perfect via the filter. Notice that when you look at the color bars that a little bit of dark green leaks thru the other color bars? With a perfect filter - that dark green would be black.


On NEC HT1x00

RGBCYM are for defining the color primary and secondary points - you can slide them to the nearest other color.

RGB Color gain and offset are for defining the color shading of greyscale.

color/saturation and hue/tint controls are for adjusting video decoding.

All three are different things - that will have impacts on the others. You need to know what the error is - and where to adjust it to do it properly.

It takes experience to know - is this a greyscale, primary, or decoding error!
post #78 of 137
" I'm sure there's more to be had, but I don't know how to unrestrain the pj to allow full contrast just using the current menu options. I haven't increased the white point setting from zero as it did some odd things at times, but if someone knows how to get more CR, please let me know."

Gary you could try some of the service area adjustments. What I got was theres 4 levels of RGB that work off different area's of the electronics.

1. ADP-rgb for progressive signal
2. DLP-rgb
3. Picture-rgb
4. User-rgb

In that order.
post #79 of 137
Without knowing what adjustments do what, or if they could do terrible things to the pj, I'm very wary of adjusting those settings!

It need someone like Kras who knows what they'r doing to tell me what I can and can't adjust.

It seems the more I learn here, the less I know! :)

Gary.
post #80 of 137
Gary,

I certainly would earn a full ISF fee for doing an Optoma. Heck sometimes I wonder if even the designer keeps the schematic of all those service menu adjustments figured out - and more importantly the good/bad interactions!
post #81 of 137
Quote:
Originally posted by scotthorton
Do you know or I should say will you offer an opinion for me regarding the OpticOne/ProgressiveLabs/AviaPro package vs the ColorFacts with Trichomat package?

Would the former do as good a job for a single lens DLP front projector vs CF?

With your screen agains the lens tip, were you then happy with the EyeOne?
Scott,

I use the Progressive Labs probes. They are very consistent and stable.

I can't comment on CF as I do not use it.

I could not get the EyeOne to produce consistent enough results to be useable. I use a Gretag Lightspex as a reference, and calibrate my Progressive Lab probes to that, using my own software. Once calibrated, the Progressive Labs probe will match the Lightspex to 3 decimal places consistently and repeatably.

William
post #82 of 137
Quote:
Originally posted by wm
Scott, I use the Progressive Labs probes. They are very consistent and stable.
I can't comment on CF as I do not use it.
I could not get the EyeOne to produce consistent enough results to be useable. I use a Gretag Lightspex as a reference, and calibrate my Progressive Lab probes to that, using my own software. Once calibrated, the Progressive Labs probe will match the Lightspex to 3 decimal places consistently and repeatably.

William
Hi William:
Thank you for the reply. That is good news. Is the "Gretag Lightspex" thier D65 lamp? I'll go look it up. Is your software something you share, or private? I like the sound of your method, but don't have the skills to do what you've done with your software. Feel free to PM me if you have anything to add off-line.
Thanks again for the time to help,
Scott
post #83 of 137
Scott,

The Lightspex is a $10k spectroradiometer. It doesn't use filters, so it can pretty much measure any display device. It's been my reference for about 5 years now (and it goes back to Gretag every 6 months for recal). It's still amazing to me how much better ACCURATE calibration looks.

Colorimeter type devices use filters. The current generation is better, but they can still be fooled by some display devices, especially when you start using color correction filters. The Lightspex (and the Photoresearch) spectroradiometers measure the full visible spectrum and then do the math. As such they are much more accurate, but this comes at a price...

William
post #84 of 137
The OpticONE and CA-6X software packages provide a screen offset function with files which were made by measuring each manufacturers screen materials directly from the screen with a PhotoResearch PR-650 for each primary color as well as White and then referencing that to the measured light taken directly from the projector using the PR-650 cosine receptor. The difference between the two measurements provides the offset for the file's which we make which are in XYZ format for accuracy when measuring any color of light as opposed to xy offset files which are accurate only for axial measurements (levels of Gray).

The sensor which we use is not the same model as our competitors are using. Our probe is a constant rate detector which operates at better then 6 samples per second regardless of light level. This compares to the competitors probes (which I used to use in our CA-1 software) at a sampling rate of 2.0 - 2.5 samples per second under ideal lighting conditions and as slow as 1 sample every three seconds at light levels below 1.0 fL. This allows us to provide a real time calibration experience for the user which is considerably quicker to perform. The low light level sensitivity is also improved.

We supply a removable diffuser to be used with the OpticONE/CA-6X probe for use with front projection television systems which eliminates any axial measurement errors. By being able to remove the diffuser when measuring direct view CRT Plasma, and RPTV displays we are able to provide considerably better low light level response as well with no sacrifice in measurement accuracy.

The OpticONE and CA-6X also support both the Sencore and Accupel test pattern generators via rs-232 communication adding both Automated Grayscale tracking and automated primary and secondary measurement reports at the touch of one button. Once you have tried using the generators via the rs-232 interface you will never go back to manually selecting a function again as all features are at your fingertips from drop down menus.

A revised users manual covering all of the newly added features will be available in the next week. We will be adding context sensitive help files in the software shortly after the manual is completed next week. A number of additional automation functions will be added shortly to make calibrating a wide number of displays even easier.

If any forum users have any questions regarding our software they can either email me directly at progressivelabs@nyc.rr.com or reach me directly at the office anytime at 212-254-3541.


Cliff
post #85 of 137
"There may be RPTV problems depending what exactly what type of screen material is being used - check with Milori."

Kras
The screen has a dull finish/non reflective.

I used the One-eye 6" from the center screen. I did get a good CR reading 1855.1. End result is the picture looks very good.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/rd5012.jpg

I got similar good results with the H77 also.
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/h77cf1.jpg

So far I'm pretty happy with the new toy.
post #86 of 137
Tom, you can't get any kind of "sane" let alone accurate CR reading with the Eye-One. If you want "very close to accurate" CR numbers for a given display device you will need a good light meter and some math abilities.
post #87 of 137
I velcro a light meter head to the CF sensor (CF100) mounting plate so I can take contrast readings alongside CF and compare. CF is normaly a little lower than either of the two light meters I have, but it works well as a control measure.

Both light meters I have look identical - one is that which comes with SMART, and the other is a UK sourced Robin RT24 and they read about the same. The Robin meter cost me less than $30 from ebay.

Gary.
post #88 of 137
The math part is easy, divide the low into the high. What's the best sanely priced light meter?
post #89 of 137
This is the UK version of the SMART light meter:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...sPageName=WDVW

Gary.
post #90 of 137
Dunno about price but this meter is very close to the one that came with my SmartIII I got last Dec.
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