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HDTV international  

post #1 of 79
Thread Starter 
The AVSForum service menu has a world clock on it and from time to time the doings of countries other than the US are mentioned especially if it has to do with HDTV.

The recent thread on Canada being one. HDTV isn't only an American thing since at least at the moment Japan and Australia are actively pursuing it. Is the AVSForum a closed parochial US HDTV inbred group? If so why?

The PCMCIA card I mentioned which the moderator, Ken H, says has nothing to do with HDTV will be used to receive HDTV broadcast in Canada, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Sweden, Taiwan and yes the US within the next six months. One Canadian broadcaster interested in this card has spectrum in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Ireland, and interest in the US.

Since the members of the AVSForum are for HDTV they should be interested in such a development. This card will promote HDTV especially in Australia. The more countries that have an active HDTV broadcasting system the better. An inexpensive card such as this will help foster HDTV. That means more HDTV production since there is a bigger market.

The fact is that here in the US we have a different standard for the full power broadcast TV spectrum. That said shouldn't we be interested in promoting and cheering on all HDTV users worldwide? BTW there is a lot of spectrum that can broadcast a signal that this card can receive and which can deliver HDTV programming right in the US.

Since over 50 countries in the world have the same DTV standard the fact that there is an inexpensive receiver that works for HDTV will promote HDTV more than anything. More customers mean more production means more HDTV for the US right? This card should retail at $275.00 or less within a year.
post #2 of 79
Quote:
HDTV isn't only an American thing since at least at the moment Japan and Australia are actively pursuing it. Is the AVSForum a closed parochial US HDTV inbred group? If so why?
Inbreeding? Did someone mention inbreeding? We don't have anything like that here in rural Louisiana http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Oh, you wanted to talk about HDTV availability in places outside of the US. Well, Japan should be congratulated for their commitment to HDTV. Heck, you can get Mariners home games in Japan on their analog HDTV system and you can't get them over air in Seattle!! (Still haven't totally figured that one out).

Good so far, though Japan is moving into the digital age with their own, third broadcasting format. Australia is committed to making HDTV an option, at least on paper. Has anyone actually released an HDTV tuner yet in Australia? Have any of their broadcasters started any routine HDTV broadcasts?

Most of Europe has decided against high def in favor of simply going digital. This is a shame because it is easier to send 19.4+ Mbps in 8MHz of spectrum than in 6MHz. Europe generally doesn't have 500 channel cable and satellite systems all over the place like we do in the US. Maybe that's why consumers are impressed with more stations at only somewhat better quality.

I don't think we're going to see economies of scale in receiver design too soon. There are three terrestrial broadcast formats so far, and China has promised to make their own, just to be different. What we will see is the widespread deployment of universal HDTV standards for production of TV and movies. This will help tremendously with syndication and availability of high def programming.

Just for the record, you don't have any financial interest in the success of a certain broadcast system that "over 50 countries in the world" use, do you? If you do (www.viacell.com) you may wish to disclose that in your sig file. Many local broadcast engineers mention their stations and lay their cards out on the table without being asked.

Jim

------------------
Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!
post #3 of 79
Bob,

I (and AVS, for that matter) have nothing against discussion of HDTV developments in other parts of the world. I see no mention of HDTV in your post, only reference to DVB & mobile receiver. If the PC card is capable of HDTV reception, fine, please post a link so we can learn about it. As soon as mobile HDTV displays are available, I'll rush right out & buy one.

If you want to keep us up to date on HDTV happenings outside of the US, great. But please, no lectures about why other terrestrial DTV systems will succeed and ours will fail, Ok?



------------------
"better living thru modern expensive electronics"
tm
post #4 of 79
Quote:
Originally posted by JimboG:

... and China has promised to make their own, just to be different.
This is a control issue. If China implements their own standard then they can control what their population is able to watch via hardware. Get caught with a DTV convertor other than the Chinese standard and get punished.


------------------
Stephen Couch
post #5 of 79
Are there any statistics available on the Digital TV penetration in other countries? What countries are doing digital? How many viewers do they have? When do they plan to stop analog? I guess we have already mentioned the HDTV countries here...

------------------
Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV/-DT.
"Not a REAL Engineer, but I play one in TV"
post #6 of 79
Thread Starter 
This PCMCIA card is only one of many products that will be available worldwide. My post was directed at Canada because they are going to test and demonstrate this card.

There are Canadian broadcasters who have extensive broadcast holdings in other countries where the controversy has been settled and so they are dealing with two different modulations systems. Some of these have expressed a great interest in mobile/portable/pedestrian reception.

US broadcasters don't seem worried about this but many foreign broadcasters see fixed reception being dominated by cable and satellite service with their much broader spectrum and feel that mobile reception will be very important for terrestrial broadcasters since it is one thing that the others can't do.

I will forgo as I have speaking of the US 8-VSB system. It is not in my interest to do so anyway. Viacel, with which I am involved is a datacaster and if the broadcasters are allowed to do datacasting with a viable mobile modulation they would either be potent competition or I would have to attempt to rent their spectrum at very high prices. With them effectively incapable of competing because of 8-VSB is OK with me.

One piece of intelligence I have picked up recently though suggest that a big argument is in process within the standards committee about the meaning of "compatible" and from what I hear neither side of that argument has a definition that you or I might agree with.
post #7 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JimboG:

Just for the record, you don't have any financial interest in the success of a certain broadcast system that "over 50 countries in the world" use, do you? If you do (www.viacell.com) you may wish to disclose that in your sig file. Many local broadcast engineers mention their stations and lay their cards out on the table without being asked.

Jim
I have www.viacel.com (one L) in my sig file (forgot the com). I have laid out my cards many times. Most often what I say is not beleived but here it is again.

Most often on AVSForum I was attacked as a datacaster who wanted free spectrum and somehow was going to get some by depriving HDTV of spectrum. I don't have a clue how I or anyone am supposed to do that. If you are not already a full power broadcaster who owns TV spectrum and got it free many years ago how do you get some free now? No broadcaster is going to let me have some except at extremely high prices whether you buy or rent. The rental price or buying price will reflect what the owner feels the auction price would be.

All the arguing that I have done over the modulation had to do with purely personal beleifs as a consumer and were actually at odds with my business best interest.

Do I have a stake in a certain modulation scheme used in 50 countries? Yes in those fifty countries and in the US using spectrum coming up for auction and other spectrum but not full power TV spectrum. Why? because it works mobile, portable and pedestrian. Does HDTV and mobile go together? I think so. With 5 lb. projectors and wearable displays like eShades from InViso and i-glasses from Panasonic and laptop computers with ever higher resolutions, in the back seat of cars and RV's and in buses, trains.

One of the fixes for 8-VSB is mobile/portable/pedestrian with Zenith proposing E8-VSB that has two channels so that you can have a 9 Mbps low priority HDTV signal and a robust or high priority SDTV signal at the same time that would be receivable mobile.

There is no free lunch.
post #8 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Ken H:
Bob,

I (and AVS, for that matter) have nothing against discussion of HDTV developments in other parts of the world. I see no mention of HDTV in your post, only reference to DVB & mobile receiver. If the PC card is capable of HDTV reception, fine, please post a link so we can learn about it. As soon as mobile HDTV displays are available, I'll rush right out & buy one.

If you want to keep us up to date on HDTV happenings outside of the US, great. But please, no lectures about why other terrestrial DTV systems will succeed and ours will fail, Ok?


I think many laptops would qualify as HDTV displays and with the proper output could deliver to a projector, HDTV glasses or other not invented yet devices and needs.

The brochure on the PCMCIA card can be seen at http://viacel.com/bp, it is still preliminary. It will be available for 8-VSB as well if someone will front the tuner development cost.

Significant news on the international HDTV front. The Taiwanese Government offered broadcasters a choice of ATSC and DVB-T. The broadcasters have chosen DVB-T unanimously and this is backed by the Consumer Electronics industry of the island. I believe this is good news for HDTV since I think they will also opt for HDTV like Australia did.

This should be the beginning of a trend that sees most countries who implement DTV in the future allowing for HDTV.
post #9 of 79
(I'm digging back into memory of CESs about 7-8 years ago, so forgive me if my memory is a little rusty.)

Aside from the transmission scheme (which I think is really a trivial matter), the hope then was that somehow there could be a world-wide agreement on a common format for HDTV. It appears that that isn't happening, and that PAL countries are maintaining the 25 FPS standard while the US and some others are retaining 30 FPS. Plus 24 FPS for film. I suspect that it wouldn't be too difficult to make a display that would handle all the differing standards, but if other countries are as "open" as ATSC, we could have several dozen HD "standards" around the world.

Even worse is the copy-protection hysteria we're seeing from Hollywood. The thought then was that digital HD transmission would lead to a world-standard VCR. Since you're recording a data stream, and "bits is bits", all you have to do is capture the data stream and feed it to a display unit with digital input. Seems like copy protection will screw that option up, also.

I'm not all that familiar with digital VHS efforts but I'm wondering if a digital signal -- HD or regular -- recorded in a PAL country could be played in an NTSC country, and vice-versa (aside from copy protection issues, of course). Does anyone know about this?

Thanks.

Rick
post #10 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by cpto:
(I'm digging back into memory of CESs about 7-8 years ago, so forgive me if my memory is a little rusty.)

Aside from the transmission scheme (which I think is really a trivial matter), the hope then was that somehow there could be a world-wide agreement on a common format for HDTV. It appears that that isn't happening, and that PAL countries are maintaining the 25 FPS standard while the US and some others are retaining 30 FPS. Plus 24 FPS for film. I suspect that it wouldn't be too difficult to make a display that would handle all the differing standards, but if other countries are as "open" as ATSC, we could have several dozen HD "standards" around the world.

Even worse is the copy-protection hysteria we're seeing from Hollywood. The thought then was that digital HD transmission would lead to a world-standard VCR. Since you're recording a data stream, and "bits is bits", all you have to do is capture the data stream and feed it to a display unit with digital input. Seems like copy protection will screw that option up, also.

I'm not all that familiar with digital VHS efforts but I'm wondering if a digital signal -- HD or regular -- recorded in a PAL country could be played in an NTSC country, and vice-versa (aside from copy protection issues, of course). Does anyone know about this?

Thanks.

Rick
Maybe there is a world standard for HDTV in the works, IP (Internet Protocol). Look at this article ...
http://www.broadcastengineering.com/...eyond_news.htm

As far as an HDTV VCR why not a big hard drive on your computer? A friend who argued with me that the Net was not made for video (1995) but for email, now has canceled his cable and has an S-Video connection from a $300.00 computer to his TV and he controls it with a wireless keyboard and a remote and watches video off the Net. It is just a matter of time before either OTA IP, VDSL or fiber will give him IP HDTV capability.

When I say OTA HDTV that could include the broadcasters delivering IP HDTV files thru datacasting or a new network in spectrum that will be auctioned (700 MHz) someday or even a surprise delivery vehicle that no one has thought about.
post #11 of 79
Brasil is also moving toward HDTV Rede Globo had reports from a national HDTV coference where it was decided to choose the same system that Japan will soon be using. It will be on air in Rio, Sao Paulo and Brasilia by 2003 test transmissions are already on the air in Rio using Mpeg4. Signals were tested there going through a tunnel under a mountain and the signal was still usable for a digital picture. Rede Globo has also filmed the last Carnival in HD. At the rollout rate proposed in Brazil they will have finished transition to HDTV before the U.S.
post #12 of 79
There is no HD using Mpeg-4. Mpeg-4 was not designed for HD but for Internet. Japan is using Mpeg-2 with video standard the same as US. They only differ for audio, where US is using AC-3 and Japan uses AAC.
Do not confuse modulation technique with Mpeg encoded video. What Japan wants to use is a modified COFDM but there were some problems during testing and they will not even have any OTA in Japan at least until 2003 at the earliest.
post #13 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by CKNA:
There is no HD using Mpeg-4. Mpeg-4 was not designed for HD but for Internet. Japan is using Mpeg-2 with video standard the same as US. They only differ for audio, where US is using AC-3 and Japan uses AAC.
Do not confuse modulation technique with Mpeg encoded video. What Japan wants to use is a modified COFDM but there were some problems during testing and they will not even have any OTA in Japan at least until 2003 at the earliest.
The Japaenese version of COFDM, ISDB-T, is offering competition to the European version, DVB-T. This in turn is fostering improvements in the DVB-T standard just like DVB-T has fostered the current improvements being worked on in 8-VSB.

Last week the licensing cost for DVB-T was set at an aggressive $.63 (.75 Euro) per receiver. Since all cost of Consumer equipment is usually marked up at least 5 times this is good news on the cost front. This should put pressure on the 8-VSB license cost of around $5.00 per receiver.

Also on the international front, testing of diversity antenna receivers with DVB-T (DVB-TD) has shown a 6-9dB gain in C/N performance. This would more than make up the 4dB advantage that 8-VSB has shown in some test. This may also work to some extent with 8-VSB.

This allows the use of COFDM at much higher data rates even in a mobile reception mode. It looks like a max data rate of 19.76 Mbps could be received even at highway speeds using 64QAM.
www.dvb.org/latest/html

Most of the advantage of the Japanese ISDB-T is being addressed by the aggressive improvements in DVB-T. But if the Brazilians and the Chinese opt for ISDB-T we may all end up with it in the long run.
post #14 of 79
Bob,

Here you go again with your 8VSB vs COFDM stuff. I was only referring to MPEG encoding and trying to make sure that people understand that modulation technique for OTA has nothing to do with HDTV standards for video and audio.
post #15 of 79
Hey Bob,

What HDTV shows have you watched lately? For that matter, what type of TV and STB do you have? I know that you must own one. You live in NYC, where there's plenty of programming available!

I live in the hinterlands of northern Louisiana. There's no OTA programming available here, largely due to foot-dragging by local broadcasters and a disinformation campaign over transmission standards.

Come to think of it, are you really even interested in HDTV, or do you prefer multicasting and datacasting? There are some people who like those things, but not many in the HDTV section of AVS forum.

Jim

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Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!
post #16 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JimboG:
Hey Bob,

I live in the hinterlands of northern Louisiana. There's no OTA programming available here, largely due to foot-dragging by local broadcasters and a disinformation campaign over transmission standards.

Jim
The bigger the overall market for HDTV programming the quicker we will have a lot of HDTV programming. I am commenting in this thread on things that are happening internationally that are positive for HDTV.

Lower cost for receivers or improvements in modulation schemes so that they require less power or can handle more bits or are easier to receive fall in that category.

We have 8-VSB in the US and that works for me. It needs improvement according to the ATSC so lets see improvement. I personally hope that we stick with it for at least three more years.

CPTO talks of a world standard for HDTV. On the same tack wouldn't it be better for HDTV if the world had the same OTA modulation standard? Just in principle that is not arguing for one or the other standard. And if you don't have only one standard then 2 would be better than three. That is if they are capable of HDTV.

So I am talking of three standards all of which are capable of HDTV. Personally I desperately hope that 8-VSB holds on in the US for personal selfish business reasons. In the world I hope that COFDM wins out over ISDB-T since I don't think there is enough extra that ISDB-T brings to the table to justify three standards.

We are working on a PCMCIA card DVT receiver that was designed for datacasting (and HDTV)and DVB-T but will work with 8-VSB just fine (tuner swap).

We have already been approached by all the US datacasters (that I know of)who want it for 8-VSB. So your thought that 8-VSB is not about datacasting and multicasting is strange since most US Broadcasters have both in their plans and from reading Congressional testimony given by broadcasters and there representatives many of them talk of doing nothing but multicasting and datacasting with 8-VSB. The recent positive response from test in the UK of multiple camera angles of a sporting event gives a new twist to multicasting also.

One thing that I would like to see and expect to see is multicasting where one view is 720P and other views could be SDTV with some program related datacasting too. This will possibly happen in Australia this year. I think it is possible that Australia will pass us in HDTV homes in the next year in percentages if not also in real numbers of users. That would be awesome for a country no bigger than New York City.
post #17 of 79
Quote:
Originally posted by CKNA:
There is no HD using Mpeg-4. Mpeg-4 was not designed for HD but for Internet. Japan is using Mpeg-2 with video standard the same as US. They only differ for audio, where US is using AC-3 and Japan uses AAC.
Do not confuse modulation technique with Mpeg encoded video. What Japan wants to use is a modified COFDM but there were some problems during testing and they will not even have any OTA in Japan at least until 2003 at the earliest.
Don't shoot the messenger! I am just repoting what I heard they reported on RedeGlobo news in Brasil that the standard they choose could do mpeg2 or mpeg4 video. Also I didn't mention anything about modulation even though the Brazilians definetly won't go with the standard the U.S. is using.



[This message has been edited by satpro (edited 07-09-2001).]
post #18 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by satpro:
Don't shoot the messenger! I am just repoting what I heard they reported on RedeGlobo news in Brasil that the standard they choose could do mpeg2 or mpeg4 video. Also I didn't mention anything about modulation even though the Brazilians definetly won't go with the standard the U.S. is using.

[This message has been edited by satpro (edited 07-09-2001).]
And as goes Brazil so goes the rest of South America probably to include Central America and Mexico. This is good for HDTV since the larger the community the lower the cost and the more HDTV production.

In Australia where they have a limited market, since they use a 7 MHz wide spectrum band per station unlike the US at 6 MHz and Europe at 8 MHz, there was a fear that no one would build receivers since the market was so small. Australia is the only other country actually broadcasting HDTV. The good news is that quite a number of receivers are now being offered or are in the works for delivery by the end of the year. They include the ZDT-410HD from Zinwell Corp. (www.zinwell.com.tw), the HiTop (www.hitopcomm.com), the DGTEC DH-2000A (www.dg-tec.com.au/homepage.html), the Konka HB001 (www.konka.com/english/product/digital/hdtv-receiver.htm) and the PCMCIA card the DVT-AI from PlainDigital (plaindigital.com/products/index.html).

Other good news is that the price leader here is the DGTEC at around $345.00 installed (in a city near you). The HiTop is interesting in that it looks like a laptop computer and features a built in screen so that it will work as a portable/mobile DTV and sets on top of your monitor for fixed reception when at home. There are other non HDTV receivers also but the low price of the HDTV capable receivers should limit the market for SDTV types. At least three of these receivers have switchable 6, 7, 8 MHz tuners so that they will work anywhere in the world potentially except of course the US, Canada and S. Korea.

These receivers and their low price bodes well for HDTV in the rest of the world.
post #19 of 79
Hey Bob, fill us in. Is anyone actually broadcasting HDTV yet in Australia? Also, what was the last HDTV show you watched in the comfort of your own home? I've been watching movies on HBO and Showtime. I'm looking forward to finally getting CBS this fall, thanks to the new press release.
Jim

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Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!
post #20 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JimboG:
Hey Bob, fill us in. Is anyone actually broadcasting HDTV yet in Australia?

Australia is broadcasting HDTV. The first digital broadcasting started on January 1st 2001. They are required to do at least 20 hours a week in HDTV. How much is actually being broadcast at this moment I don't know. Very few are receiving it since there has only been SDTV receivers till now. This month the first HDTV receivers go on sale and that is what I was pointing out in my last post.

The more HDTV the better. So the first HDTV receiver (DGTEC)is selling at $354.71 (todays exchange rate)installed in your home if you live in the city. The Zinwell will sell for $303.93 not installed as far as I know. These are list prices and they may actually sell for less. The HiTop was rumored to sell for $600.00 I guess since they have the flat panel display included. The DVT-A1 (renamed from DVB-T A1) PCMCIA card will probably sell initially at $600 but will fall to $400 within a year.

I think Australia is very important for HDTV since they are using the standard that most of the world is using for digital. If they succeed and they will then unlike Europe, where the first DTV countries have not opted for HDTV initially, the rest of the world will most likely opt for HDTV.

With receivers priced at $300 list already in Australia, a very small market, it would seem that when larger markets open up the cost of receivers should fall quickly to very low numbers and when installed in monitors to $50 or less. At $300 list the cost to the manufacturer is already under $150 and includes the housing and other components that would not exist when included in a monitor.

Low cost receivers in a small market like Australia (NYC population) and low cost IPR (Intellectual Property Rights) at $.63 for DVB-T against $5.00 for ATSC here in the US should soon start to put pressure on manufacturers to lower receiver prices in the US and possibly lower the IPR cost also.
post #21 of 79
Thread Starter 
Various HDTV DVB-T STB's will be demonstrated at the Convergence iTV & Beyond conference August 13 & 14, 2001 at the Crowne Plaza in Toronto, Canada.
The HiTop (http://www.dg-tec.com.au/homepage.html) will be demonstrated. Nokia, DGTEC (http://www.dg-tec.com.au/homepage.html) and Zinwell (http://www.zinwell.com.tw/product/digital-DVBT.htm) units will also be presented. The PlainDigital DVT-A1 PCMCIA card will be seen publicly for the first time. (http://plaindigital.com)
http://convergence-tv.com/2001/speakerguests

The broadcast will take place from the CN tower. Hopefully a diversity receiver will be ready in time for the conference.
post #22 of 79
Thread Starter 
From the Australian newsgroup aus.tv.digital talking about reception and equipment prices in Oz. $2000.00 mentioned in the article would be $1019.22 in US dollars.

Subject: WHY SO QUIET?

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivan C Smith" <ivsmith11@hotmail.com.snp>
Newsgroups: aus.tv.digital
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Why so quiet?

> >
> > >Have we all got perfect reception or something? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
> > >
> > >Ivan
>
> > I was wondering the same. Perhaps DTV is now so good [did you see Marquise on SBS?] that we are just taking it for granted.
>
> My thoughts exactly http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
>
> >
> > Popped into JB HiFi yesterday and saw two TEAC WS sets of different sizes, selling with digital STBs -- made in Turkey! The STBs are not being sold separately.
> >
> > The sets are 50hz and sell for around $2k. They didn't look too bad. Not Loewe, Philips or Grundig, but not bad. They appeared to have better picture quality than a much dearer Panasonic WS on display -- but you can't tell too much in a shop environment. And considering that the STB is included in the price they represent the first general unfussy consumer sets on the market.
>
> I have knowledge now that the first Tau Giga sets were recalled and re-released, but the one I saw yesterday ( a new desgn ) was just as bad with that "chicken wire" look on progressive (absolutely wrong and horrible to look at), then I find out that Panasonic have bought into Loewe for their 100Hz technology etc....poor Matsushita, they rushed Tau Giga out to beat old Sony and stuffed it.
>
> >
> > The salesman [who knew I wasn't in the market for a set, so he had no particular reason to BS -- and he owns a Loewe himself] says that he "hasn't much time for TEAC products generally, but I'm a bit impressed."
>
> TEAC seem to making great strides in improving their image, by increasing the quality etc..about time too IMO...and they are one of the only "budget" brands on the market that has a 16:9 mode on their 4:3 sets - I was amazed at this, but it's true. S-Vid input too.
>
> I'm glad to see the retailing side pick up slightly. We just need some bigger players and a little more variety in the DTV market space and we'll be like pigs rolling in sh*t! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
>
> Ivan
>
>
post #23 of 79
Hey, where does Mr. Miller get his information from? Canada long ago adopted the U.S. 8VSB HDTV standard and it's been operating for years. I use my Dish 6000 to get CBS, ABC, NBC, and High Def movies through ExpressVu. What is this person talking about?

Cheers. Don.
post #24 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by M.Hat:
Hey, where does Mr. Miller get his information from? Canada long ago adopted the U.S. 8VSB HDTV standard and it's been operating for years. I use my Dish 6000 to get CBS, ABC, NBC, and High Def movies through ExpressVu. What is this person talking about?

Cheers. Don.
What information do you want the source for? Be glad to supply it. Yes Canada did chose 8-VSB they also have been and are testing COFDM in Ottowa and Toronto. The Canadian broadcasters have shown an interest in mobile reception of DTV which the 8-VSB standard can't handle. They have voted twice to continue the current test.

Canadian broadcasters like most broadcasters around the world do not benefit from must carry rules like US broadcasters do. They actually must rely on the reception of their signal over the air (broadcasting). So they are more keenly aware of the differences that ease of reception and the mobile market mean when they are competing with fixed reception satellite and cable competitors.
post #25 of 79
Canada has adopted 8 VSB as its standard for HDTV broadcasting. The CODFM issue is dead up here. It's ancient history as far as HDTV broadcasting in Canada (and the U.S.) is concerned.
post #26 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by M.Hat:
Canada has adopted 8 VSB as its standard for HDTV broadcasting. The CODFM issue is dead up here. It's ancient history as far as HDTV broadcasting in Canada (and the U.S.) is concerned.
Not quite dead from what I hear. Otherwise why would they still be testing? Maybe you have a source of information that would explain that.

Also the CRTC has issued Public Notice CRTC 2001-62 on Ottawa, 5 June 2001, asking for public comments on the DTV transition. Many of those comments will make for interesting reading.

At the conference in Toronto August 13 and 14th the Canadian broadcasters will be given demonstrations of DVB-T and the low cost receivers being offered in the DVB-T market. This is at their request. They are paying for it. Also the testing and demonstrations of DVB-T will continue off the CN Tower for another year. Why all this is happening if the issue is dead is beyond me.

Canadian broadcasters privately are very interested in mobile reception. Hey they want to stay in business just like everyone else. Without the "must carry" laws like in the US where the broadcaster gets paid for every customer the cable company has it is a very different story.

DVB-T offers a whole new market of convenience. Something TV has never reliably offered before, mobile, portable and pedestrian reception.
post #27 of 79
Bob
Your beating a dead horse
I would of loved codfm
But it ain't gonna happen in the U.S.
Move foreward

------------------
Studio Broadcast Engineer
KET
post #28 of 79
Bob is referring to ongoing testing in Canada. He is well aware, as you should be, that discussion of the US 8VSB system vs. CODFM is not allowed on the AVS HDTV Forum.

Thanks for your cooperation.

------------------
"Better living thru modern, expensive electronics devices"
tm
post #29 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by M.Hat:
Canada has adopted 8 VSB as its standard for HDTV broadcasting. The CODFM issue is dead up here. It's ancient history as far as HDTV broadcasting in Canada (and the U.S.) is concerned.
This URL should give you an idea of how undead DVB-T is in Canada.
http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/rcc_conten...Spring2001.pdf

The article from the prestigious Ryerson Polytechnique (home of the TV industry in Canada I am told) talks as if no decision about modulation has really been made at all.

We know better, we know that "technically" Canada under intense pressure has chosen 8-VSB. And some Canadians feel that they are forced to follow the lead of the US because of the long border. I don't buy it. In the digital age you could even mix and match modulations. You could have three at the same time.

I am betting that Canada will allow DVB-T to co-exist with 8-VSB.

BTW Ken is right and 8-VSB is what we have in the USA for better or worse. I hope personally that we stick with it for at least three years.
post #30 of 79
Thread Starter 
The first HDTV recievers offered in Australia will be availabe August 15th. The best price I have found so far is $380.00. Someone was promising $343.00 installed but they haven't resurfaced yet.

A list of HDTV programs will be posted by that time, I will copy it here. Probably mostly US programming.

In Toronto Canada, August 13th on, there will be public demonstrations of COFDM and 8-VSB with the latest receivers. Advocates of either modulation scheme will pick test sites, receivers and antennas. Both modulation schemes will be tested for reception at each site with each antenna. Proceeding along with the data collected will be filmed and edited for a national TV program.

The controvercial COFDM "receiver" from the MSTV test will be tested also to establish a reference point to the MSTV test.
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