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post #61 of 79
At this point, few of us on this forum, much less the public at large, care! 8VSB is what we have in the US. It will invariably get better soon, in terms of receiver technology. Three years from now the technical arguments will be largely moot...except for those of course who have datacasting as an agenda.

My experience with 8VSB, under very difficult reception conditions in the mountains of Utah, has been excellent...far better than analog over-the-air reception.
And because of the lesser efficiencies of COFDM relative to 8VSB, broadcasters would pay a substantially higher electrical bill each month simply to achieve equivalent coverage area.

Finally, the entire concept of high power terrestrial television broadcasting, whether 8VSB or COFDM, is largely obsolete. What we need is a combination of satellites with spot beams to replace big stick transmitters, coupled with must-carry cable laws, with any reception gaps filled in by low power digital repeaters.
post #62 of 79
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Miller:
Problems aside 1.2 MILLION British subjects in the first two years of broadcasting COFDM bought in to the plan.
Actually, I don't think the British 'bought in'. Most of the receivers were subsidized by the broadcasters and equipment manufacturers. It is pretty difficult to refuse being handed a box if it is essentially free.
post #63 of 79
Bob,
Is it really true that you're using this forum's bandwidth to further your personal financial agenda? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
-Dave
post #64 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by cwood:
At this point, few of us on this forum, much less the public at large, care! 8VSB is what we have in the US. It will invariably get better soon, in terms of receiver technology. Three years from now the technical arguments will be largely moot...except for those of course who have datacasting as an agenda.

My experience with 8VSB, under very difficult reception conditions in the mountains of Utah, has been excellent...far better than analog over-the-air reception.
And because of the lesser efficiencies of COFDM relative to 8VSB, broadcasters would pay a substantially higher electrical bill each month simply to achieve equivalent coverage area.

Finally, the entire concept of high power terrestrial television broadcasting, whether 8VSB or COFDM, is largely obsolete. What we need is a combination of satellites with spot beams to replace big stick transmitters, coupled with must-carry cable laws, with any reception gaps filled in by low power digital repeaters.
First this thread is about HDTV International so the "public" is interested at least the "public" that is international. Many international types do read this Forum but have been intimidated by inflamatory rhetoric here about other standards such as COFDM DVB-T and do not post. Most countries have chosen COFDM DVB-T. This is an Internet Forum which implies International and it does have an International clock. I don't see anywhere that it is a parochial endeavor or that the concept of HDTV is limited to the US.

I am happy that 8-VSB works for you and that you get better reception than with analog in Utah. That the US has decided to stick with 8-VSB works for me businesswise. I hope the US sticks with it for at least three years. This will give us (my company) a head start.

As far as those "who have datacasting as an agenda" that would emphatically include all US broadcasters who to a network are quoted as beleiving that datacasting is what will pay for the DTV transition. And of course datacasting is what you do when you broadcast digitally anyway.

You also agree with me that by the time 8-VSB gets better the question will be moot. OTA broadcasting will be dead and irrelevant as you say.

OTA broadcasting in the US will be dead but not in the rest of the world. With COFDM and using SFN's (Single Frequency Networks) and low power (on channel) repeaters (as you mention)OTA broadcasting will have a rebirth that will put the business plans of cable and satellite at risk.

One more thing about the technology question being moot. The simple fact is that that is already true in most of the world. Other than the few countries tied politically to the US such as Canada, Mexico and S. Korea, in most other countries the question is already moot. They have made a choice and there is no second guesing going on. They chose DVB-T COFDM.

As to the "lesser efficiencies of COFDM". Would you care to come to Toronto and demonstrate this? I have an open invitation to anyone to show me any spot that COFDM can not be received in and 8-VSB can. NO TAKERS SO FAR!

It seems that whenever any 8-VSB type wants to demonstrate their superior reception they will only do it under non-disclosure or behind curtains.

The simple fact is that in Toronto if you or anyone care to come we will demonstrate that at any spot you chose under the same power if 8-VSB is receivable COFDM will also be receivable. Further we will show you inumerable sites where 8-VSB is not receivable. We will then drive around the spots where 8-VSB is NOT RECEIVABLE demonstating that COFDM is receivable mobile at the same location. We will do this with HDTV content.

Any questions?

One last point. With current COFDM receivers and the same power level COFDM will equal 8-VSB in the far feild while blowing it away anywhere else. With SFNs that COFDM is made to work with and 8-VSB is not, the COFDM power requirement drops by up to 90%. With the new diversity receiver chips which take unique advantage of the COFDM architecture, the power advantage even with the big stick transmitter concept goes emphatically to COFDM. That is COFDM will either reach futher than 8-VSB or the same as 8-VSB but with less power. The advantage you talk about is from one laboratory report that showed a 2 to 4 dB advantage for 8-VSB in the far feild. It has never been demonstrated in the real world. With diversity receiver chips that laboratory advantage goes from plus 2 to 4 dB to minus at least 2 to 4 dB and in the real world it will be measurable as a plus for COFDM.

We hope to demonstrate diversity receivers in Toronto soon.

Most of the world is going COFDM. The economies of scale strongly favor COFDM. Already in Australia the HDTV receivers are half the price of receivers in the US. And COFDM has more labs around the world trying to improve it also.

One more thing. Let us assume that you are right that COFDM needed more power to get the same coverage that 8-VSB has. If both were allowed every broadcaster would immediately switch to COFDM and be all too glad to pay the higher power bill. IMHO and the opinion of all the broadcasters I have talked to about it.
post #65 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by cwood:
Actually, I don't think the British 'bought in'. Most of the receivers were subsidized by the broadcasters and equipment manufacturers. It is pretty difficult to refuse being handed a box if it is essentially free.
Well in Britain they are doubling the power level for the DVB-T transmitters for one thing which will more than double the number of potential customers. Their power levels are still miniscule compared to full power statons in the US.

The service in the UK is a subscriber service that has a monthly fee. They have given away the receivers in the past but not anymore.

What we have proposed to do and hopefully will is offer a free service with free receivers here in the US. It is looking good at the moment.

BTW Do you think that the Dish or DirectTV offers are essentially free? They are doing very well but the fact that they give free installation and a free receiver doesn't make it irresisitable. The British bought in. Now it will be interesting to see if the Australians buy in. They actually have to buy a receiver for HDTV and the broadcast is free just like here.

It is all just starting in Australia. Receivers will be a lot less exspensive there and no need in most cases for fancy antenna work.

We shall see.
post #66 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dcarl:
Bob,
Is it really true that you're using this forum's bandwidth to further your personal financial agenda? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
-Dave
Actually I don't think so, anyway it hasn't worked so far. Do you have any good ideas on how I might do it? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/confused.gif
post #67 of 79
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Miller:
Actually I don't think so, anyway it hasn't worked so far. Do you have any good ideas on how I might do it? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/confused.gif

On a different forum hopefully? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/mad.gif

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Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!
post #68 of 79
quote:
---------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dcarl:
Bob,
Is it really true that you're using this forum's bandwidth to further your personal financial agenda?
-Dave
--------------------------------------------------

Bob Miller wrote:
Actually I don't think so, anyway it hasn't worked so far. Do you have any good ideas on how I might do it?

--------------------------------------------------


Well Bob, you could try what you did last winter, just invent a fictitious AVS member to agree with you, in an attempt to strengthen your position. Wasn't the name you gave him "Rotary"? http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif
But that was a miserable failure that time, so it probably won't work this time either...http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
-Dave
post #69 of 79
Most of the next-generation tuner chips that I have read about through links on this forum say they will support all international digital standards as well as NTSC and PAL. If this is the case would it not be possible for viewers along the US/Canadian border to tune in whatever programming was available, regardless of modulation standard? Or are there other factors involved in the design of the STB that make this an unrealistic possibility?

Personally I like the features on the new Nokia STB and would like to see an 8VSB compatible version made available here. Further down the road if Mexico decides to go with COFDM I would still like to have the ability to watch their broadcasts here, not to mention what might happen to San Diego's Mexico-based Fox and UPN affiliates.
post #70 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dlsnyder:
Most of the next-generation tuner chips that I have read about through links on this forum say they will support all international digital standards as well as NTSC and PAL. If this is the case would it not be possible for viewers along the US/Canadian border to tune in whatever programming was available, regardless of modulation standard? Or are there other factors involved in the design of the STB that make this an unrealistic possibility?

Personally I like the features on the new Nokia STB and would like to see an 8VSB compatible version made available here. Further down the road if Mexico decides to go with COFDM I would still like to have the ability to watch their broadcasts here, not to mention what might happen to San Diego's Mexico-based Fox and UPN affiliates.
If you are talking about the Infineon Announcement that chip is just a small part of the whole unit. The whole unit has to be designed for all standards. That is the problem. With miniscule sales of 8-VSB OTA DTV recievers what would entice a manufacturer to make a dual receiver if it's only use would be for possible use along the Canadian and Mexican border. In the mean time his product would cost more for everyone else. His product would be at a disadvantage.

If dual standards were allowed in the US then all receivers would have to be dual to be competitive IMO.

Nokia is not interested in the US 8-VSB market IMHO. If you are talking about their Home Media Terminal it is a Swiss Army knife of an STB and doesn't have a chance here. To many bells and whistles.
post #71 of 79
What he probably meant to say is that Americans and Canadians are too stupid to use Nokia STB. It is far too advanced for us so only Europeans have enough brains to use all of its features because they adopted COFDM.
I am so tired of his crap about COFDM that it makes me sick.
He spreads misinformation all the time and never mentions that any improvements to COFDM must come at the cost of some other features. There are different versions of COFDM which are not compatible with each other. My friends in Europe always complain about pictures going out when their wives use a hair drier.
post #72 of 79
Seems funny that with 8Mhz of spectrum per channel and the greatest modulation known to man, Europeans still won't be able to get HDTV.

I like HDTV. I enjoy watching HBO and Showtime. College football on CBS should be killer.

Bob doesn't seem to care much for HDTV. He doesn't own an HDTV and he's never once talked about watching (or even wanting to watch) programming in HDTV. Bob lives in a city where OTA HDTV is available, but he doesn't choose to view it. Come to think of it, why does he spend so much time in the HDTV forum (not the down-rez'd, multicasting, datacasting SDTV forum)?

Jim

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Let me get this straight, this show is hi-def and 5.1, but my local affiliate makes it crappy NTSC and mono?!
post #73 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by JimboG:
Seems funny that with 8Mhz of spectrum per channel and the greatest modulation known to man, Europeans still won't be able to get HDTV.

I like HDTV. I enjoy watching HBO and Showtime. College football on CBS should be killer.

Bob doesn't seem to care much for HDTV. He doesn't own an HDTV and he's never once talked about watching (or even wanting to watch) programming in HDTV. Bob lives in a city where OTA HDTV is available, but he doesn't choose to view it. Come to think of it, why does he spend so much time in the HDTV forum (not the down-rez'd, multicasting, datacasting SDTV forum)?

Jim
With the Europeans it is simply a business decision. They had a bad experience trying HDTV before the DVB and COFDM came along. There is an upgrade path to HDTV with DVB-T witness the fact that Australia is doing HDTV with DVB-T.

The more programs produced in HDTV format the more likely that Europe will go HDTV in the future. Right now they do not see a business plan that justifies it. They are more interested in mobile reception, multicasting, datacasting and ubiquitous reception for everyone.

BTW I like HDTV.
post #74 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by dlsnyder:
Yes, that's the one. I saw it on the Tech TV special coverage of CES 2001 where I think it won an award. It looks really cool but also seems to be comparable in features to Echostar's proposed model PRO-921, due out sometime late next year.
What I meant was that it was to expensive and feature rich. I think a simpler device and less expensive will be a winner. I will be suprised if it sells in Europe as well.

Didn't mean to say anything about Canada or the US. I think I have said this before but I will say it again. Most Canadian broadcasters are pro COFDM. I have not found a technical type in Canada who openly said anything good about 8-VSB. I was very impressed with everyone I met in Canada, their professionalism and dedication. 8-VSB should work very well in Toronto. High CN tower and flat surroundings. The fact that it was difficult to receive where we tried it was suprising to me. Multipath is a real strange beast.
post #75 of 79
I've been reading back in this thread and, according to Mr. Miller, 8VSB didn't work very well in the Toronto tests. Well, there's an explanation for this. You see up here in Canada the airwaves have mutated because of our proximity to the Northern Lights and so, whereas the 8VSB standard works wonderfully well south of the 49th, north of the border our deformed airwaves present a bit of an impediment to these particular signals. Of course the CODFARM standard and the Northern Lights naturally co-exist very well, both being derived from the same source, namely the sun (also known as the God Apollo to proponents of CODFARM).

Whew! I'm glad that's all settled and we can go back to eating our corn flakes in peace.
post #76 of 79
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Miller:

Nokia is not interested in the US 8-VSB market IMHO. If you are talking about their Home Media Terminal it is a Swiss Army knife of an STB and doesn't have a chance here. To many bells and whistles.

Yes, that's the one. I saw it on the Tech TV special coverage of CES 2001 where I think it won an award. It looks really cool but also seems to be comparable in features to Echostar's proposed model PRO-921, due out sometime late next year.
post #77 of 79
I feel like I'm confessing to being a necrophile or something but I actually am interested in hearing about the Toronto test results.

I tend be be interested in the technology for its own sake and just because the US has chosen something doesn't mean we shouldn't keep up on other developments around the world, or even here.

And as time goes by the OTA modulation method will become a diminishing part of the technology for watching TV anyway.

- Tom

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Getting started with HTPC:
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post #78 of 79
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by trbarry:
I feel like I'm confessing to being a necrophile or something but I actually am interested in hearing about the Toronto test results.

I tend be be interested in the technology for its own sake and just because the US has chosen something doesn't mean we shouldn't keep up on other developments around the world, or even here.

And as time goes by the OTA modulation method will become a diminishing part of the technology for watching TV anyway.

- Tom
Why is it that someone on AVSFORUM has to feel strange to express an opinion not sanctioned by the virtual group?

OTA modulation will become less of a factor for watching TV in the US maybe. If you include fiber and cable and ADSL and if you only consider fixed receivers I would agree with you.

If you include mobile/portable and pedestrian I disagree. I think that in the future we will watch a lot of TV mobile on all size devices from glasses that will give us an HDTV experience on a bus to PDA's, laptops, slates and 2 pound projectors that will thow an image on any surface we want.

Since society is getting more mobile all the time TV viewing will be a very big deal mobile. So I disagree that OTA will diminish as a TV experience. It has been diminishing for most of it's existence losing viewers to cable almost from the beginning. Now is the time for an OTA comeback bigtime.

In other countrries that is. Not possible in the US.
post #79 of 79
Quote:
If you include mobile/portable and pedestrian I disagree. I think that in the future we will watch a lot of TV mobile on all size devices from glasses that will give us an HDTV experience on a bus to PDA's, laptops, slates and 2 pound projectors that will thow an image on any surface we want.

Since society is getting more mobile all the time TV viewing will be a very big deal mobile. So I disagree that OTA will diminish as a TV experience. It has been diminishing for most of it's existence losing viewers to cable almost from the beginning. Now is the time for an OTA comeback bigtime.
I agree about the display devices we will carry but maybe not about the BROADcast content we will view from them. I'm not sure that we will be using them to view stuff from content providers who own antennas.

It seems equally likely to me they will be devices using wireless network connections for 2 way communications or viewing content already locally cached all over in the repeaters in an Akamai/Tivo-like format. Distributed anything-on-demand, pocket Internet style. After all, both storage & fibre bandwidth are becoming free.

And are we still becoming more mobile? Or just more connected? To me, more mobile was back in the fifty's & sixty's when we would do everything in our cars. Now there is less need to travel if we are only doing it to communicate.

- Tom

------------------
<FONT size="1">
Getting started with HTPC:
HTPC FAQ , DScaler , Xcel's Links , and
The Anti-DMCA Website . </FONT s>
<FONT size="2">And Free Dmitri Sklyarov</FONT s>

[This message has been edited by trbarry (edited 08-31-2001).]
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