Optoma H79 review & screenshots - Page 67

I'll put it somewhere you can DL it this evening. It's only about 3Mb. I'll PM you a link.

S

So i should make sure my S97 is set to output video level over HDMI and not PC levels then?

Yes, if you are hooking it up to the H79's DVI port. That port (at least in RGB mode) defaults to video levels so you want to match them.

Thx for that, so say if i had the 59avi would i set that to output RGB or the other one (ybpr or whatever it is, 4:4:2/4 component) via HDMI to the H79s DVI port

You might need to take that VTR in for repair

I have yet to see "ONE" Sony VTR that was "NOT" spot on SMPTE standard! Maybe if Sony had one of those Accupel "reference generators" they could have got a handle on the problem

thomas

I dont' have a 59avi and try not to say anyting I'm not very sure about. But that sounds right. RGB is what I sent from my denon 3910 and is what I now send from my scaler. I *belive* it was RGB that Greg Rogers found only went to PC levels when doing a second syne (resync) on DVI in.

re: Calibraton disc requests:

Sorry for the OT post...

Seems I opened a can of worms Whew! I'm flooded with PM's for the calibration disc. Please hold off on PM requests for it. I was offering it to Joe Specifically since he was a AV-RS232 customer of mine in a bind.

I will make it available publically sometime this week, next at the latest. I have one submenu to touchup and one extra pattern to create and add. It is a 3Mb .iso file. You will have to have a DVD burner to make your own. I'll might make a mailing available for those who don't for a small charge to cover expenses.

I will post a quick snipet here when it's ready (since I let the cat out here), but I will start a thread in the right place when I have it ready.

I should have PM'd Joe in the first place, sorry about that...

Scott

As one of those who PM'd you I appreciate your post, Scott, and your generosity.

Dan

Touche'... !!! I was really just trying to make a point I guess.

scott, what patterns are on that?

Fundamental stuff. And a couple I think are "goodies". I'd be gratefull if you'd take a look at it. I'll PM you the link as soon as I have it ready if you are willing.

I made it specifically for a DLP (or possibly other digital) device. It has no pluge pattern for blooming for CRT's, no convergence patterns, but those could be added. It is authored in 16x9 mode. I do not have a Y/C delay pattern, that about the only one I use that's not here. I may take the time to add that one later, but due to it's nature, I'm not comfortable releasing that one as "correct" without some testing.

From memory it has:

* Stepped and smooth (deep ramp?) Gray scale, both a 5 IRE step (including BTB and WTW) and a full 0-255 digital 1 point ramp. Both ramps have markers for BTB abd WTW

* Moving bar patterns for black. FUll black screen with 4 bars. Each bar's level is marked/labelled (in a dark gray so as not to raise APL). Screen center includes a brighter (dark gray) strpe so you can see where teh bars are supposed to be in case they are not visible.

* A pattern with 50/50 white/black backgrounds each showing respective bars including BTB and WTW, labelled.

* Ditto moving bars for white and above white.

* Horizontal color bars similar to those on DVE. Mine are labeled for color and hue since I always forget which pairs to watch. I will probably make an animated version of this pattern as well, with moving or blinking bars.

* 0 to 100 IRE gray window patterns in 10 IRE steps. I'll probably expand to 5 IRE steps.

* All 6 primary and secondary color window patterns at 75% levels. Most of the color stuff was done at 75% in order to help cut out influences of colros being clipped at 100IRE. I may add some 100% (100IRE) patterns or change to 100% depending on input I get.

* an overscan/alignment patterns for adjusting overscan, pixel cropping, and centering output. Includes letterbox guides.

* A red ramp which I'm told will be usefull for finding red limit on DLP. Haven't used it yet, it's identical to gray ramps only I cut the B and G channels.

* Ansi contrast pattern (4x4?) checkerboard

* Ansi brightness pattern (with markers of where to measure)

I probably missed something, but that's most of it. All individual patterns stay (loop) until you tell it to move (skip) to next. All colors and levels have been verified against known good dvd sources (i.e. not Avia). All patterns made from scratch using digital levels. Very easy menu navigation. Professionally autored and encoded.

Scott

sure thing scott!

I made a test disk with ramped RGB so that I could visually test for colour crush. I think the increments were in 3s (i.e. .... R 229, 232, 235). Having them in 2 or less increments made it hard to see the bars or if crusshing was ocurring. Maybe you'd want to add that in if you think others might find it usefull?

Gary.

I got hold of DVE. All the ramps that I could find showed fully visible steps (if the Oppo brightness menu was set at +5 - if not, the last two steps were indistinguishable), but I'm not sure I found the ramps you're talking about. I never tried to navigate DVE before, just Avia - that was an adventure. Contrast on the H79 was set very low and brightness very high. Thanks for the tips.

Anyway, I look forward to Scott's patterns to confirm BTB and WTW.

Joe: The patterns I mean are: T 12 Chp 14 and T 12 Ch 15. Also, T 12 Chps 2-13 have quite a few patterns with PLUGE for setting black level. These BTB PLUGE bars may clip. Chps 14 and 15 show the whole range, and also white, so I find them more useful in assessing the system, and where, if at all, there is clipping.

Thanks, Chris. I had the right screens, then. T 12, Chpt 14 displays the entire range of ramp patterns all the way to the edge of the screen on the Optoma, in discrete increments from white to black (and black to white on the bottom). This is with the Oppo's brightness set to +5 and all other DVD player settings set to default. My Optoma brightness was set to +9 and the contrast to -2. These settings were really far off to make sure the Optoma wasn't doing the clipping, if there was any.

I still don't understand why the manufacturer would set the DVD player this way, unless it represents what they feel is likely to be a "typical" setup for a lot of buyers.

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone here on this issue. It's gone a long way to help clarify for me the issue of DVI-Video vs. DVI-PC levels. (When I asked a question about DVI-PC vs DVI-Video on another thread, they ignored me until I asked the 4th time, then responded as though I were a two-headed monkey for even asking the question.) It looks as though, with this test, that I can feel relatively secure setting the Lumagen to DVI-Video levels for the Optoma calibration. Right?

You should be okay as long as you're maintaining things through the chain. Remember that on the DVE ramps, reference black and white (16, and 235 respectively) are marked by the dots.

I am very excited! I will have my h 79 on Wednsday, woo-hoo!!! Anyway, I will be using a 120.5" Siverstar from Vutec. I will be also using an Onkyo SP1000, TX 1000 and HDTIVO. And I forgot to mention a JVC HM5 U with over 80 DTHEATER titles. I am upgrading from a newer benq pj. Will I be blown away? My wife is one of those people who sees rainbows. She was seeing them a lot less on the benq so I am hoping with this 8 segment color wheel they will be neutralized even more. I read this entire thread plus the other one (happy owners). Guitarman, I want to thank you for your help in deciding on this PJ! And finaly, I read that someone needed the Gefen HDMI boost due to sparklies. I ordered one since I was seeing the sparklies with my 8 meter HDMI bettercable. Hopefuly this will do the trick...

joerod, you will LOVE the H79/Silverstar combo. Lemme know if you got any DVHS titles you want to get rid of.

Have fun!!

OK, maybe I am a two-headed monkey. I went back to check everything again, just to be sure my chain had all its links unkinked. Everything I said above was accurate, except I couldn't get the DVE pattern to display WTW (using the dots as a reference point) without reducing the Oppo's contrast setting to -2.

So, I tested a little further. I set the Lumagen DVI level to PC and the Oppo brightness and contrast back to 0. Just as a point of clariication, the Lumagen accepts either DVI-Video or DVI-PC and outputs as DVI-Video or DVI-PC. The Optoma accepts DVI-Video or DVI-PC. In all these tests, the Optoma is set up to receive DVI-Video and the Lumagen processor is set up to output DVI-Video. That remains consistent in all this.

So, here's the arrangement that is so confusing:

1. Oppo brightness and contrast at their factory defaults of 0.
2. Optoma set to receive DVI-Video.
3. Lumagen video processor set to output DVI-Video to the Optoma.
4. Lumagen video processor set to receive DVI-PC from the Oppo DVD player.

With these settings, the DVE ramp patterns are visible from BTB to WTW (title 12, chpt 14). Unless I misread everything above, a device set up to receive a DVI-PC signal is going to clip BTB and WTW. If the Lumagen is expecting DVI-PC (and that really means something) then how can I see BTB and WTW bars (clearly outside the dots that mark those BTB and WTW transitions on the bars)?

Is this a matter, Chris, of all bets being off, and the manufacturers make up their own rules as they go? Or am I just too thick to see how this all works?

This test tends to send me in the other direction and think the Oppo is best left at DVI-PC levels.

The Lumagen video processor, BTW, defaults to DVI-PC level input and DVI-PC level output, and it gives this piece of advice: "If unsure, use the defaults." Even after a Lumagen "Restore," its DVI level defaults back to DVI-PC and has to be reset manually, even though all the other Lumagen settings are restored to their saved states.

Perhaps, at this point, the only serious recourse is to press the manufacturers to supply the relevant information. My experience with doing that in the past has been mixed, though.

I think this discussion of DVI-V vs DVI-PC should end here for this thread. I used Scott's patterns to double check the DVE results and found that I can coax my system into seeing WTW and BTB by adjusting the Oppo, whether the Lumagen video processor is set to PC or Video DVI levels.

What seems to make the most sense to me right now is to set the Lumagen to PC level and leave the Oppo at its 0 defaults (which is what Scott suggested originally). For someone without the ability to switch between PC and Video levels, upping the Oppo brightness (and maybe lowering its contrast) seems like a reasonable move. I suspect a pretty good image is possible using either method, based on the threads I've read on the Oppo.

Originally, my goal in asking the question was just to get the best possible outcome for the calibration, and to understand the difference. Maybe in a couple of years all the manufacturers will have ironed out the standards, and the terms will mean the same thing to everyone.

The only thing that seems certain to me right now is that the transition to digital video, although filled with promise, is still a little messy.

Joe: It's late and my eyes are getting quite confused between oppo and optoma! But let me see if I follow where it is you ended up. You have the lumagen OUTPUT and the input of your Optoma display both set to Video levels, and this you has remained constant.

The output of your oppo source, and the Lumagen DVI INPUT are in play. It's been a while since I played with a lumagen, so maybe I can dig up a manual again, but I'm confused as to what the combination of the input and output settings of the lumagen is doing.. It is a processor, not a display or source, so as long it isn't affecting a change in levels, it should be getting the full 0-255 range, and wherever the data falls should stay the same when it's output. The issue is what the source is outputting. The source should maintain black at 16, white ate 235, but the lumagen should pass all 0-255 through to the display.

Here's my idea to totally clarify things: take the lumagen out of the chain for a moment, and connect the source directly to your display, and see what the source outputs in its default setting when viewed on the display(with white and black level points moved in so you are sure to see the whole range from the source). If there is clipping in default, can you avoid this by raising the black level on the source, and lowering the white level on the source, or choosing a Video levels output mode? Shoot for maintaining the full range as you look at the DVE ramps if possible, also be wary about contouring problems when doing this. Now your source should be outputting video levels properly and without clipping, roughly.

Now, re-insert the lumagen into the chain, and adjust the lumagen input and output options so that you have the same picture as before, maintaining the full range.

Now go back to your display and calibrate.

hope that helps?

I have a question for the H79 owners out there. I demoed a unit on the weekend and I had a question about 4:3 material viewing. Is there a way to configure the projector to display such material at full height, with black bars on the left and right? I know that there's a native mode that displays it in the middle of the screen, and a cinema mode which stretches it to fit 16:9, but I've got a lot of TV series box sets that I'd like to display at full height, without relying on the digital zoom feature of the projector.

Thanks!

Yes, Optoma calls it "Window" mode. It will stretch your 480i/p image to 720p and give pillarbox sides.

Joe:

Chris is definately the expert here but here's my take on it for a relative laymens point of view :

If you can adjust anything in your chain so as to see the BTB bars and the WTW bars, then I would think the Oppo's output is at video levels. If it was doing PC levels (properly) then when it decoded say a digital 12 (BTB) it would truncate that and make it 0. It woudl convert the remaining digital levels of 16-235 to the 0-255 that's sent out the DVI port in either case. So it would never output any original information coded below 16, and thus you'd never see it (BTB) on your display.

The fact that you can see it (BTB/WTW) implies that the Oppo *is* outputting video levels and not truncating below black (and above white by the same tests) information.

Based on that, I'd set the entire chain to video levels and work from there.

To throw in some more digital wrenches (sorry) the interesting thing to me here is this... My DVD is SDI out, so it's doing digital RGB to the scaler. Scaler is doing digital RGB to the PJ. The DVD player shouldn't screw with the digital signal preferably (mine does not). It should decode the mpeg, and send the resulting decoded digital level numbers merrily out the DVI port, unaltered. Point being, you should be able to use the built in test pattern on the Lumagen to set the Lumagen to PJ relationship. Adjust the H79, not the Lumagen, leave it at it's defaults. Once that's done, the PJ will display digital 16 and 235 as white and black respectively on your screen. The PJ can show BTB or WTW bars depending on where you set your contrast and brightness.

Now enter the Oppo. If it's done right internally, it should not screw with the luminance levels of the digital decode from the mpeg off the DVD. It may well do it, but ideally should just send the digital signal on it's way, with no conversions; read a 16, send a 16, read a 14, send a 14, etc. That's one of the advantages to a digital signal IMO. At that point it may take a hair of an adjustment, but shouldn't need much.

The fact that the Oppo gives the opportunity to adjust the brightness on it's digital RGB output means it has the firmware to mess with the digital signal. So how that is implemented makes all bets off One would think that the default woudl be to not do anything to the levels being decoded.

Generally I try had not to do any adjustments of the source when it comes to brightness, contrast, etc. You mayhave to with the Oppo as you've discovered.

And I agree anyting you suspect a problem in the chain, or arent' positive, removeing as many variables as possible (i.e. Lumagen) can be helpful in diagnosing the issue.

Hopefully Chris will have time to correct anything I sad that's just plain wrong .

HTH,
Scott

Scott,

SDI is not RGB, it is YCbCr digital component and it also can be digital composite in an earlier form.

What you say should be true if the manufacturers would implement the specs correctly (16 being mapped to 0, etc.) . The problem is, they do not and it sounds like this is the case with the Oppo.

I do not agree that you should leave the source alone though. Think about this, if the source was clipping or crushing on it's output, then nothing you do further down the chain can recover that missing info, it's already gone into the digital dumpster. ALWAYS start with the source and work your way through the chain ensuring each piece is outputting the proper level...if it can.

That's exactly why I love SDI also, you can't mess with the values like you can with DVI/HDMI and each manufacturer seems to want to interpret the rules differently and implement their own "solution".


Please see above. I recommend, once you get the source (DVD Player) outputting correctly, do most of the adjustments with the Lumagen or whatever scaler/processor you're using. That is one of the main reasons you have it there in the first place, it is a dedicated high quality video processing device to do these sorts of things and to take it away from inferior processing built into sources and displays. Then and only then would I tweak the display as needed to get that last ounce of performance.

Thanks for the clarification on the SDI signal.

I respectifully disagree in part on this last point, or not . Maybe I misread your point in which case, nevermind

When you have a intermediate device like the Lumagen that is outputting a known, relatively simple digital signal (digital RGB), then I think it's best to get the relationship between it and the PJ first. Adjust the PJ to the reference signal. THEN adjust the sources (preferably using the input adjustments on teh processor) to match this "reference" setup on the PJ. In this arrangement, the PJ to scaler setup is constant and correct.

With DVI out of a Lumagen, you can use the Lumagen as a signal generator with it's built in patterns to do a grayscale. It's sending out a reference signal, which is realtively easy with digital RGB (just send 0-255 RGB) no analog to hose.

Once the Lumagen and PJ relationship is set, you can use the source to adjust, but I use the processor's input adjustments to tweak the incoming signal to match the reference.

That's what the gurus at Lumagen say, too. But you can straighten me out I'm pretty close to Chris's byline anyway, so feel free to add to it

It's this method (using a reference to set the PJ) that Tom's counting on doing folks grayscale setting by mail using his new Accupel. Set the PJ, set everything else to match.

Cheers, Scott

Yes, I agree with your statements, but if adjustments need to be done, they should be done with the scaler because as you say, the display should be already calibrated to be doing the reference that it was set up to do, i.e. - greyscale. That's why I said not to adjust the display.

Remember the scaler is the hub of the video system and should be tweaked for each of it's inputs.

What it comes down to is this: the display should be aligned to reference values for digital video, and the source should be outputting these values correctly without shifting. If there are other things in the chain, such as processors, they should remain transparent, and pass the levels that are output by the source device.

If the source device is not performing correctly, first step is to try to get it to output levels correctly. If there is confusion about what intermediary devices like a processor maybe doing, best to remove those temporarily if you can to figure out what the source is actually doing.


For analog, this is true. For digital, unless the source is wrong, all video source inputs should align equally.

Scott: thanks for reminding me that the lumagen has patterns built-in, this can be a useful tool too, to make sure that the display is setup correctly to that, and then work backwards from there at the source and the lumagen's input settings to get the correct output from the source as well.

Agreed, that's really what I've been trying to say. As you say.."if the source is wrong"..., that's why I said "if" tweaking/adjusting needs to be done (after all is done to the source that can be done and it is outputting correctly), do it at the scaler level and as a last resort, the display.

That's part of the beauty of this. Different techniques to get to the same end results. Either way, you want EVERY part of your video system to be setup and outputting the best possible signal to reach video nirvana, no matter how bad some manufacturers try to screw it up