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Onix Rocket Measurements By UltimateAV  

post #1 of 545
Thread Starter 
These are HORRENDOUSLY bad.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersyst...et/index4.html
post #2 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
These are HORRENDOUSLY bad.

http://ultimateavmag.com/speakersyst...et/index4.html
It was all explained why here, http://forum.**********/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7624

Hopefully they'll send some that "work" and get them remeasured....besides even those were messed up speakers the reviewer at least thought they still sounded okay. :)
post #3 of 545
Thread Starter 
Sounds like damage control to me and at the very least it brings into question their quality control. Rocket is 100% OFF my list for future purchases.
post #4 of 545
It has been covered here in this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...06#post5295406
post #5 of 545
Thread Starter 
It's worthy of it's own thread so more people can see it.
post #6 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Sounds like damage control to me and at the very least it brings into question their quality control. Rocket is 100% OFF my list for future purchases.
6FU ... The graphs were from photography samples which had NOT gone through the normal QC checks at the factory. Ultimate A/V requested them AS photography samples. If you REALLY think this means there is normally a QC problem, fine.

BUT ... I measured a pair of Paradigm Studio 100 V.3's here as being +/- 2.8 dB from 200 to 20,000 Hz using an Earthworks M30 Microphone and ETF software ... and, using the identical gear, measured the 750's as being +/- 3 dB ...

I also posted some other measurements on the thread Tex-Amp linked to ...
post #7 of 545
Thread Starter 
I don't buy that story at all. If ANYTHING goes through the company that would be that defective there's a major problem. You could take any pair of speakers off Paradigm or API's line and I GUARANTEE you they would not even be close to being this utterly bad. As I said either the design is flawed or the QC is so bad nobody should even consider purchasing their products. Either way it's inexcusable.
post #8 of 545
You don't HAVE to "buy" anything. It is quite clear you have one agenda here ...

By the way, when we measured the Paradigms, the guy who owns them (who is also an audio designer) was here for the measurements ...

The speakers in question did NOT come off the normal line ... if you elect to say that is not true, and want to call it a story ... that is FINE ...

I AM disappointed in you, though ... I thought you had gotten over doing this type of stuff ...
post #9 of 545
Thread Starter 
I have no agenda and as a matter of fact Rocket was in my plans to compare against my Veritas. I happened to stumble onto the UltimateAV site and thought Hey Ho, a real review something most internet only companies are afraid of. When I surfed over to the measurements I was stuneed. I have the utmost respect for Mark BUT whether it's designed in such a horrendous way or if it's a normal QC issue it's serious and people should be aware of it. I'm not sure what your interest in Rocket is nor do I care but mine is simply as a future potential customer after having read so many gushes about them.
post #10 of 545
You DO clearly have an agenda ... this pair had NOT gone through the normal QC process ... They often have sample speakers like this at AV123 for this purpose. With a factory in China, it is pretty normal policy.

That simple fact either eludes you ... or you don't care.

But ... I clearly remember YOU stating that STEREOPHILE's staff was the BEST in the industry for listening tests. In order for someone to believe this graph ... one ALSO then has to believe the entire LISTENING portion of the review is worthless ... REMEMBER ... in LISTENING ... this was a RAVE review. The "measurements" do not come CLOSE to the review text...

And .. based on YOUR standard, (since one faulty product, regardless of the source) Stereophile is a HORRENDOUS magazine ... After all ... HOW could they RAVE about these speakers with such POOR QC ?
post #11 of 545
Thread Starter 
Gee Craig I'm coming at this as potential owner and I have NO idea why you're getting so bent out of shape. Do you have a vested interest in the success of the company? I had been seriously considering getting a set to compare to my Veritas but whether it's a QC or design issue there is a MAJOR problem here. As I said this would not happen if you took a random sample from the Paradigm or API assembly line. If Mark needs to personally check every speaker before it leaves for the purchaser's home it's a big problem. If he doesn't check it's a BIGGER problem because obviously garbage like the ones that got measured are going through their facility.
Mark also originally said if he knew they'd be measured he'd have raised them to SIG config and as it turns out the ones measured were Sigs. Either way there are clearly issues potential customers need to be wary of.
What's YOUR interest in this? You're getting way bent out of shape over someone posting links to a set of measurements. Far more than a person at arm's length would be.
post #12 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by Fpar95
It was all explained why here, http://forum.**********/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7624

Hopefully they'll send some that "work" and get them remeasured....besides even those were messed up speakers the reviewer at least thought they still sounded okay. :)
The reviewer actually thought they sounded a lot better than OK. Here's a link to the review itself:

Ultimate AV

The speakers that the reviewer listened to were not the same speakers that were measured although both pair were probably classic 750's (not the version currently sold). The Signature 750's should have a flatter treble response than the classics although still more rolled off on the high end than the Rocket 550's/250's or Onix Ref series.
post #13 of 545
Thread Starter 
The roll off would certainly explain why people refer to them as warm. I prefer detailed and accurate rather than speakers that give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Compared to the Revel and Veritas reviews it's not completely gushing either.
post #14 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Gee Craig I'm coming at this as potential owner and I have NO idea why you're getting so bent out of shape. Do you have a vested interest in the success of the company? I had been seriously considering getting a set to compare to my Veritas but whether it's a QC or design issue there is a MAJOR problem here. As I said this would not happen if you took a random sample from the Paradigm or API assembly line. If Mark needs to personally check every speaker before it leaves for the purchaser's home it's a big problem. If he doesn't check it's a BIGGER problem because obviously garbage like the ones that got measured are going through their facility.
Mark also originally said if he knew they'd be measured he'd have raised them to SIG config and as it turns out the ones measured were Sigs. Either way there are clearly issues potential customers need to be wary of.
What's YOUR interest in this? You're getting way bent out of shape over someone posting links to a set of measurements. Far more than a person at arm's length would be.
As I posted on AV123 ... We have yet ANOTHER genius who thinks he is original for posting that I must have a VESTED interest ... at LEAST try something original ...

These were "photography samples" ... not normal production samples ... These things happen in the REAL world. In 1999, I was at an auto show with a new T-Bird being used for photography ... and it would have NEVER tested well, either. Why ? Because THESE samples are just for taking PICTURES.

Get it ?

And you, as is usually the case in "bashing threads" like these, managed to TOTALLY ignore the fact the Mark Schifter has OFFERED to send a PRODUCTION PAIR to Stereophile for follow up measurements.

He also pointed out that they have thorough QC TESTS for PRODUCTION speakers FOR those speakers people are purchasing.

Are we clear on this ?
post #15 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
The roll off would certainly explain why people refer to them as warm. I prefer detailed and accurate rather than speakers that give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Compared to the Revel and Veritas reviews it's not completely gushing either.
From the review:

"The Rockets are some of the most civilized and honest speakers I've heard. "

"Through dozens of movies and hundreds of music CD's, They never failed to do what we expect from ACCURATE speakers - they simply disappeared, letting the performances flow through them with the least intrusion"

For a system which FIVE channels runs about $2150 ... I would call that some pretty serious gushing ...
post #16 of 545
6FU ... If someone came on here talking trash about ANY speaker which measured poorly under these circumstances, I would absolutely point out WHY they were wrong ... I would not care WHO the company was ...
post #17 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
The roll off would certainly explain why people refer to them as warm. I prefer detailed and accurate rather than speakers that give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Compared to the Revel and Veritas reviews it's not completely gushing either.
Your statement "Compared to the Revel and Veritas reviews it's not completely gushing either" *implies* the review is somewhat gushing. So in your own words, the review has merit since the reviewer gushes about the rockets.

BTW, no one cares about what sound you prefer... don't get your feelings hurt because they don't care about my sound preference either :)

I've read the other threads on what might have caused the graphs to look the way they do... but in the end, do we really care what a graph looks like if we like the speaker's sound?? The reviewer essentially praised the rockets.

I had issues, albeit cosmetic, with my rockets. Customer support swapped out the speakers at their expense. What a joy. Sony will gladly sell a $4000 TV that is clearly defective, but will tell you "it's within tolerance" after your 30-day return period expires. But that is a story for another time in a different thread.

-T
post #18 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
The roll off would certainly explain why people refer to them as warm. I prefer detailed and accurate rather than speakers that give me a warm and fuzzy feeling.

Compared to the Revel and Veritas reviews it's not completely gushing either.
You sound like a good candidate for the Onix Ref series. Very detailed and accurate. I hope you listen to high quality recordings or the Ref's will be too detailed and accurate.

I have heard the Ref 1's A/B'd with Rocket 750's and 550's, Ascend 340m's and 170's, and Axiom M60's, and I would characterize the Ref 1's as a definite class above all of those speakers in the detail and accuracy departments. The Ref 2's are just as good and the Ref 3's are even better. To be fair the Ref's are more expensive than most of these other speakers.

Interestingly, at the Austin GTG there was a significant split of opinion over whether the Sig 750's were better or worse sounding than the Rocket 550MKII's and Ascend 340m's (two very similar sounding speakers). I didn't take any polls, but from what I heard, I would say that roughly half preferred the 750's and half preferred the 550's/340m's.

FWIW, I'm in the camp that prefers the 550/340 sound, but that doesn't mean those other people are wrong. It just means that we have different tastes, and I can certainly appreciate why they prefer the 750's. They have certain strengths that the other speakers do not have. BTW, I prefer the 750 Sig's more neutral treble response over the 750 classic's more rolled off high end.

Disclosure: I am a proud Rocket 550 classic owner.
post #19 of 545
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
As I posted on AV123 ... We have yet ANOTHER genius who thinks he is original for posting that I must have a VESTED interest ... at LEAST try something original ...

These were "photography samples" ... not normal production samples ... These things happen in the REAL world. In 1999, I was at an auto show with a new T-Bird being used for photography ... and it would have NEVER tested well, either. Why ? Because THESE samples are just for taking PICTURES.

Get it ?

And you, as is usually the case in "bashing threads" like these, managed to TOTALLY ignore the fact the Mark Schifter has OFFERED to send a PRODUCTION PAIR to Stereophile for follow up measurements.

He also pointed out that they have thorough QC TESTS for PRODUCTION speakers FOR those speakers people are purchasing.

Are we clear on this ?
Craig at NO POINT does he say these were simply very pretty speakers we send to photographers. Mark I'm sure offered to send a nice "tweaked" set for measurements much as Blune did after Coincident got a horrible set of measurements in Stereophile. He was refused as I am sure Mark will be. There is no bashing here there is a link to set of measurements. I cannot comprehend why you're getting so hysterical if you have no vested interest in the company. Care to explain? As for me they're merely off my list. If you think that's bashing then you aren't really aware of quite how good I can be at bashing when needed. If Mark has to test EVERY speaker going out there's a serious QC issue. If that's the way they measure there's a serious design issue. Kapisch?
post #20 of 545
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by craigsub
6FU ... If someone came on here talking trash about ANY speaker which measured poorly under these circumstances, I would absolutely point out WHY they were wrong ... I would not care WHO the company was ...
Chuckle. Posting a link is talking trash? :D :D :D
post #21 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Chuckle. Posting a link is talking trash? :D :D :D
Um, I think he might have been talking about your editorial comments. :rolleyes:
post #22 of 545
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by T-Bone
Your statement "Compared to the Revel and Veritas reviews it's not completely gushing either" *implies* the review is somewhat gushing. So in your own words, the review has merit since the reviewer gushes about the rockets.

BTW, no one cares about what sound you prefer... don't get your feelings hurt because they don't care about my sound preference either :)

I've read the other threads on what might have caused the graphs to look the way they do... but in the end, do we really care what a graph looks like if we like the speaker's sound?? The reviewer essentially praised the rockets.

I had issues, albeit cosmetic, with my rockets. Customer support swapped out the speakers at their expense. What a joy. Sony will gladly sell a $4000 TV that is clearly defective, but will tell you "it's within tolerance" after your 30-day return period expires. But that is a story for another time in a different thread.

-T
No my feelings aren't hurt, I've yet to even HEAR Rockets. I'm running a Veritas setup with 2.4i, 2.0ci and 2.2i for the rears. This after I had a Mirage OM7 based setup I found far too dark and lacking in detail. At this point the Veritas more than held their own againt the MA Gold 60s and handily disposed of the Paradigm Studio 100 V3. Yes we all have pur preferences but one would hope nobody would prefer a speaker 15dB down at 20K. :D
Harmon the editorial comments were certainly not overboard. The measurements stink and Mark is doing damage control and as I SAID there's either a design issue or a QC issue. Both are inexcusable.
post #23 of 545
6FU,

one of the realities on this forum is that if you dare to criticize the darling of the internet companies - then you are accused of having "an agenda"... no matter what facts, figures, graphs, or links you post

if you like rockets - buy them.... if you don't like rockets - then don't buy them

everything else here is really a waste of time

personally - i don't put very much stock in ANY posted measurements - either in a magazine review OR by a speaker manufacturer..... listening to a speaker IS the only way to decide whether a speaker is any good


btw - i don't think that any speaker could ever be "too detailed and accurate."

:)
post #24 of 545
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by swordfish22
6FU,

one of the realities on this forum is that if you dare to criticize the darling of the internet companies - then you are accused of having "an agenda"... no matter what facts, figures, graphs, or links you post

if you like rockets - buy them.... if you don't like rockets - then don't buy them

everything else here is really a waste of time

personally - i don't put very much stock in ANY posted measurements - either in a magazine review OR by a speaker manufacturer..... listening to a speaker IS the only way to decide whether a speaker is any good
You my friend just nailed the reality of online forums. I always liked the Absolute Sound approach of listening and never liked when Stereophile added measurements to everything. Be interesting to see other internet only companies start to get more reviews. I'd bet there'd be a lot of surprises to be had.
post #25 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by swordfish22
btw - i don't think that any speaker could ever be "too detailed and accurate."

:)
It's not really that the speaker is too detailed and/or accurate, but if you listen to a poor quality recording, the Ref's will really expose it and can actually sound worse than it does on a lesser speaker.
post #26 of 545
you're right....

a lessor speaker will make poor recordings sound o.k..... but it will also limit the resolution of really good recordings

i would prefer to listen to a detailed speaker and buy better recordings than listen to a speaker which only works well on poor recordings
post #27 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by swordfish22
6FU,

one of the realities on this forum is that if you dare to criticize the darling of the internet companies - then you are accused of having "an agenda"... no matter what facts, figures, graphs, or links you post

if you like rockets - buy them.... if you don't like rockets - then don't buy them

everything else here is really a waste of time

personally - i don't put very much stock in ANY posted measurements - either in a magazine review OR by a speaker manufacturer..... listening to a speaker IS the only way to decide whether a speaker is any good


btw - i don't think that any speaker could ever be "too detailed and accurate."

:)

I don't think it's a reality that one is accused of having an agenda if one criticizes an internet speaker company.

I believe the reality is, at least in this case, that a new thread was posted about a topic that was previously discussed, and the opening line in caps included "HORRENDOUSLY" while the review content was largely ignored.

-T
post #28 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by 6FU
Craig at NO POINT does he say these were simply very pretty speakers we send to photographers. Mark I'm sure offered to send a nice "tweaked" set for measurements much as Blune did after Coincident got a horrible set of measurements in Stereophile. He was refused as I am sure Mark will be. There is no bashing here there is a link to set of measurements. I cannot comprehend why you're getting so hysterical if you have no vested interest in the company. Care to explain? As for me they're merely off my list. If you think that's bashing then you aren't really aware of quite how good I can be at bashing when needed. If Mark has to test EVERY speaker going out there's a serious QC issue. If that's the way they measure there's a serious design issue. Kapisch?
Yes, he DOES say they were simply sent for photography purposes ... "very pretty" is YOUR term ... He also stated they were not normal speakers off the line ... I know the truth hurts sometimes, but you are just plain WRONG in everything you are attempting here.

And as for your assumption that a "tweaked" set of speakers would be those sent out ... you once again PROVE your agenda. You are basing this on NOTHING.

As for my being hysterical ... I am merely pointing out FACTS you want to ignore. Quite frankly, I expect more out of you ...
post #29 of 545
Thread Starter 
Craig methinks thou doth protest too much. A set was sent for photography purposes which should be representative of their average speaker run and it measured as badly or worse than any speaker I have ever seen. Far worse. Now you can wildly flail your hands and use lots of quotation marks but facts are facts and as I HIGHLY doubt Stereophile will allow another set sent for measurement Onix will probably have to deal with what was already printed and live with it. Gee reality sucks.
post #30 of 545
Quote:
Originally posted by swordfish22
6FU,

one of the realities on this forum is that if you dare to criticize the darling of the internet companies - then you are accused of having "an agenda"... no matter what facts, figures, graphs, or links you post

if you like rockets - buy them.... if you don't like rockets - then don't buy them

everything else here is really a waste of time

personally - i don't put very much stock in ANY posted measurements - either in a magazine review OR by a speaker manufacturer..... listening to a speaker IS the only way to decide whether a speaker is any good


btw - i don't think that any speaker could ever be "too detailed and accurate."

:)
Tube-sword ... I have, if you remember, had similar conversations with people who trash Klipsch as being too bright ... when it was clear they had no clue how to properly set up a Klipsch speaker.

As for 6FU ... Had the reviewer talked about how terrible these speakers sounded (and make no mistake, a speaker that measures like this will sound like crap), I could see SOME credibility to the point that AV123 has a QC problem ... and there would ALSO be literally HUGE numbers of factory returns ... which there are not ... there is NO evidence of poor QC in these speakers, period.
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