Onix Rocket Measurements By UltimateAV - Page 3  

Then you haven't seen the review. There's a picture of the 200 center on Ultimate AV's homepage. The review has separate pics of the 750's, 200 center, 250's, and 300 surrounds:

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/

there is nothing in the review about a "request for photographic samples".... that info came from the rocket speaker president in another thread

but yes - there are pictures of the speakers in the review - on pages 1 and 2 of the review

All true. What a truly generous thing for Mark to do. Not only did he gift me with a wonderful system, but he personally, at his own expense, flew into town to set it up. WOW!

I think it's pertinent to point out that until that time I was an Axiom owner and still am. And yes, Craig nominated me for the makeover. I consider both of them good friends. What has this got to do with the issue at hand. Is this supposed to "expose" my bias. Need I point out that I've already admitted to being a Rocket owner, and having the accompanying bias that goes along with that. Based on the above, I feel it fairly reasonable to have that bias. Wouldn't you? There is no shame in being biased. The only shame would be failing to admit it.

My bias is not the problem here. It your refusal to admit YOURS that is the problem. You apparently "have it in" for internet companies and will go to great lengths to hurt them and their owners. Starting this thread is evidence of that. Your mistake is not owning up to it and pretending that you are just some innocent bystander out to save the buying public from buying these "horrendous" speakers. Horse hockey! Your own words have exposed your bias, even though you refuse to do so.

I'm curious what company is that? In any event, I wouldn't call that "tweaking". I consider tweaking to be using better components in a review sample that will make it outperform the stock model. Very hard to do with speakers I suspect.

What you have described is basically what I just said about review speakers being gone over very carefully for any defects. The company you quoted isn't doing anything different to the speakers to make them sound better. They are just making sure that they are operating correctly. The only non-testing procedure is the burn-in, but everyone's speakers are going to get burned in eventually anyway.

BTW, the possibility of tweaking is the main reason that Consumer Reports doesn't accept review samples, but instead buys the products they review through normal channels. Tweaking can be a real issue with some types of products most notably automobiles. Unfortunately, CR's expertise in judging audio and video gear is sorely lacking.

In the other thread here on AVS about this Mark said that the reviewer had those speakers 20 months or more:

"John Gannon had these speakers for something like 20 + months..."

I don't believe the Sig versions were even available that long ago. Probably the reason he had the classic versions of the 750's.

All the conspiracy theories are getting a little silly.

Ah, back to the personal insult. If you are against "bad products" what is this all about. Are you implying that Rocket is a "bad Product"? Did you read the review? Based on the review, It would be a real stretch to say it's a review of a "bad product." And, the mixup between the measured, and the reviewed speakers has been reasonably explained, though you, of course, chose not to believe them. I wonder why?

You'll have to go back to my posts and point out where I've "defended" Rocket. I remember very well saying that I didn't know what went on between these two men, or which story is accurate. I also said that based on my bias I choose to believe Mark. You, on the other hand, are yet to explain why you accuse him, without presenting any proof, of "spinning."

You are also implying that because I was given a wonderful Rocket system, that would be the only possible reason I would question your motives. Trust me. If this thread occurred BEFORE I owned Rockets my reaction would be the same. I have an innate bias against unproven accusations, like yours. Your erroneous insinuation says more about you than it does about me.

No one said that. They should measure a more neutral frequency response though because their treble response is a little higher than that of the original 750's. I prefer the Sig's, but there are a fair number of classic 750 owners who prefer the originals and have no desire to change. To each his own.

I'm not trying to downplay the imporance of frequency response curves, but I believe there is a lot more to a speaker than that. For instance, having briefly listened to the Ascend 170's and 340m's, I liked the 340's quite a bit better although I understand that the 170 may actually measure a slightly flatter frequency response.

You guys know 6FU is a troll, right? Why else would he continue to insult, and to spark a response?

-T

Uh, because he got them before the Sig version came out?

You guys are like the people who think NASA didn't land on the moon. You've got an even more far fetched retort every time you're proven wrong.

I'm so glad we have people like you on the board to defend each and every one of us from the evils of people like Mark Shifter and Craig. I know I'd much rather have you put a knife in my back than have Mark or Craig do something nice for me!

Wow! I've received e-mails and PMs of the marketing brilliance of giving a "HT makeover" to someone who already had a nice set-up of a main competitor's speakers, instead of someone who has a HTiB or nothing at all. But I did not know it was the guy that was briefly a business partner of AV123 that nominated him.

Anybody notice my question about the "midranges" on the 200 has never been answered or that no graph has been given to show different measurements for the 200?

This can all get cleared up pretty easily IMO.

UltimateAV I believe is Stereophile.....and they have a pretty good reputation. Mark just needs to write and letter to the editor with an explanation...which I am pretty sure will get published with a response, and then have them do a re-measurement.

pretty simple

I can't believe you guys are feeding 6FU like this. If you look at almost all of his other threads, they are all baited for arguement. Feed the TROLL if you must, i've been there and done it with this guy all ready. 6FU you never did explain anything in the thread that you and i both know about. You are a fraud, hack etc, etc. There is a disease gentlemen, and it's called 6FU.

Yeah, right. When were they ever on your list. :D

Back from Dinner ... and Curtis, Mark has said he would like Stereophile to measure a pair of production 750's ... and yes, that would be a good idea.

6FU ... If you knew Rijax, and everything he has done in his life, you would NOT be disparaging my nominating home in the home theater makeover. He is someone who served in our Armed Forces, and who has shown virtue in many areas of his life.

I was thrilled when he won the makeover, and HE extended the invitation into his home when Mark Schifter was flying in for the install.

He lives all of 2 hours from me, and it was a GREAT evening.

I DID receive a tremendous payback for this, though ... I got to meet Rijax, an Axiom owner and friend of his from Rochester, NY who made the 5 hour drive, Rijax's mother (a DEAR 94 year old woman) and, of course, Mark Schifter.

As for your continued assertion that I have a "vested interest" in AV123 ... you are wrong. YOU live in a world in which people do NOT do things for the good of others, and for that, I pity you.

My biggest problem with this entire line of thinking of yours is quite simple ... YOU are taking pleasure in trying to run someone else (in the case, MLS) down. I loathe that type of behavior ... it is the sign of a mean, petty person.

I really DO feel sorry for you... to be this cynical is a tragedy.

Oh shame on you, Quinn. You have absolutely no idea why I was selected for the makeover. Yet you chose to assume it was a marketing ploy, and that there could not possibly be any circumstances that would render me deserving of such a wonderful gift. If it was a marketing ploy, the local media would have been alerted, and a professional photographer would have been present, threads would have been posted all the internet forums, etc. Yes I took a few photographs, as did Mark, and they were posted in a thread on av123 ONLY, in order let the other guys on the forum share in the fun of the day. If Mark's intent was to use this for marketing, I'm sure he would have done a far better job of it than that.

Also, Mark told me explicitly he expected no comparison, on my part, of the Axioms and the Rockets. And I have judiciously avoided making comparisons, even on the av123 forum itself. And if he expected me to become a shill for Rockets, which I don't for one second believe, he failed. Here is a post of mine, made only 6 days ago, where I suggested the Axiom line as an option. The title of the thread is "Onix Rockets and Paradigm Studios."

I have always been, and will continue to be, a supporter of, and exponent of Axioms, and other internet companies like your Ascends. In posts, and PMs to those who have inquired, I have explained that I have never heard the perfect speaker, and the Axioms and Rockets each have positives and negatives. I HAVE said the Bigfoot center channel is the best center channel I've ever owned, which is no more, and no less than the truth, and is only an opinion, NOT a recommendation.

I have always tried, even before owning Rockets to avoid recommending any product, because of the complete subjectivity of our hobby. I have restricted myself, as much as possible, to merely explaining my experiences and leaving it to the reader to make his own decisions. The one exception to the above is the MX-700 remote, which I have unabashedly recommended to everyone, especially Curtis! :D

So, here we have another unfounded, and UNSUPPORTED, implication of skulduggery by someone who has an axe to grind, and is TOTALLY unaware of the facts. It seems beyond your capabilities to believe that Mark would simply want to do something kind for someone, expecting nothing in return. I expected better from you, Quinn.

Jack - To take this one step further ... I never WAS a partner with AV123 ... We announced the intent to form the opening of a new territory for AV123 which NEVER actually occured.

Chris Quinn ... I also had nominated Rijax for this makeover last JULY (July 18, to be exact) ... For you to suggest something was worng with my having done so is nothing short of disgusting.

And, for the record, you need to get off your "I got SO many Private messages" nonsense ... You make it sound like legions of people are coming to YOU to air grievances. I have YET to receive ONE PM on this whole matter. Somehow, I find that hard to believe that you are the Oprah of audio ...

I guess Craig is an objectivist right up until it tramples on his belief system. Until there is a production model that obviously refutes these measurements, I think everyone needs to relax a little, though the measurements are a little damning, to be kind.

Yes...I have read that, but what is really needed, more so than new measurements, is an agreed explanation from Stereophile and Mark. Unless this happens, the speculation will be "something is not right".

Right now, all we are doing, is trampling on each other's beliefs as to what is right to try and prove a point. Some want to believe Stereophile, and some want to believe Mark. It is all amplified because this is the first published measurements of Rockets by an independent and professional publication. I suggest everyone write to Stereophile to help get to the bottom of what happenned.

Jack...you know I love my MX-700! :D

So did I. :(

Pretty much agree with Curtis here. Only thing I would point out is that there really isn't much of a conflict, if any, in Ultimate AV's version of events and what Mark has said. Only inconsistency I've picked up on is that Ultimate AV believed they were testing Sig 750's and Mark knows or thinks that they were the older version. Maybe the magazine just assumed that they got Sig's since that's the only version being sold right now. Mark said these were speakers that they had held on to for photography requests because they had a particularly nice wood grain. Seems like this could be cleared up pretty quickly.

I hope that Ultimate AV does retest a set, but if there is an improvement, I predict that many on this forum will never accept the new measurements or explanation for the previous measurements regardless of how reasonable it is.

These two sentences contadict each other. Unless, of course, you consider labeling Mark's version as "spin" or "damage control" (euphemisms for lying) to be complimentary to Mark's reputation. Absent comment from S/AV, i. e. without proof either way, you chose to unreasonably characterize Mark's version as "spin" or "damage control." Why?

When given a plausible explanation of what happened, you could have backed off and taken a stance that was neutral, but you instead, without any proof whatsoever, chose to attack Mark's veracity, and insult all who took exception to that. Without comment from S/UAV, the only reasonable position is "we don't know" what occurred. It appears you've branded him guilty until proved innocent. I think asking why you would do that is logical.

If I understand things correctly the only thing S/UAV can confirm or deny is whether or not they asked for a pair of speakers to be sent to a photographer, and if those were the ones measured. They were not privy to what speakers were sent where, or how they were selected. And, I agree with Harmon that, absent that, nothing will satisfy you because your agenda appears to be the disparagement of Mark and Rocket.

Oh and yes, those of us who call Mark "friend" ARE sensitive to unwarranted, and unsupported attacks on his character. I don't think we could reasonably call ourselves "friend" if we weren't. Maybe your definition of "friend" is different.

By the way, did you serve your country?

Actually Joel, I am one who has consistently called for blind or double blind LISTENING tests for speakers and subwoofers. My "belief system" was not trampled here in any way. The LISTENING portion of PRODUCTION speakers was a very positive review.

People seem to have a hard time with the chronology, so here goes ...

1. About 20 months ago, Jack Gannon gets a review sample of 750's (along woth the other speakers ... but to keep it simple, let's stick with 750's) ...

2. Much later (about a year and a half), the written report on the listening tests is almost done, so Stereophile requests some speakers "for photography purposes"...

3. AV123 sends some speakers out which were not normal production speakers, with the thought that they would be photographed and returned.

4. Stereophile is unaware these are not production models, and proceeds to take the photographs AND measurements.

5. Stereophile publishes the listening portion of the review ... which is VERY positive ... and even belies the "750's are laid back" conventional wisdom.

6. Stereophile ALSO publishes the measurements of the "non-production" speakers. THESE results are in no way CLOSE to the results of the listening test.

7. AV123 makes note these were NOT production speakers, and says they will ask for permission to send a "real pair" off the assembly line.

BASED on the above facts, 6FU has decided this means there are rampant QC issues with Rocket speakers.

6FU ALSO states any speakers sent out by AV123 will be "tweaked". If you did NOT have an agenda, you would be calling for Mark Schifter to PUT UP or SHUT UP. THAT would be reasonable... For example, allow Stereophile to ORDER a pair of speakers right off the website with the knowledge they will get a FULL refund after testing is done.

This order could EASILY be done to an "unknown" individual, so there is no way anyone at AV123 would know these were review samples.

GIVING Mark Schifter the benefit of the doubt, and going with HIS assertion the speakers MEASURED WERE ONLY requested as photography samples (he mentioned he still has the e-mail stating so), Stereophile SHOULD allow for such a test ... They, afterall, have been said to have measured speakers which were NOT production models ...

Assuming Stereophile would be willing to do this, ... ALL this controversy could be put to rest. Hopefully they would do the same methodology they normally follow, including breaking the speakers in ... etc... and would post a complete follow up.

As far as this "Rocket owners are a sensitive bunch" nonsense, I have had the same types of conversations regarding Klipsch, Paradigm, Axiom, and several other speakers with which I have had first hand experience and have seen others trash.

On an ironic note ... I HAVE measured the following speakers with my Earthworks microphone and ETF software, and HERE are the measured results from 200 to 20,000 Hz: Paradigm 100 v.3 +/- 2.8 dB ... Ascend 340's +/- 1.5 dB... Axiom M22-ti's +/- 3.6 dB... Rocket 550 Mark II's +/- 2 dB... Rocket 750's +/- 3.1 dB... Klipsch Belles +/- 5.3 dB... Ascend 170's +/- 2.2 dB ... PSB Stratus Silveri's +/- 1.4 dB... Klipsch RB-5's ... +/- 4.4 dB ...

Nine systems measured ... Two were Rockets ...

Hey, packing MRE (Meals Ready to Eat) for the troops doesn't count as serving (well...unless you're serving at the mess hall) :D.