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Putting the Digital VS. CRT debate to an end for GOOD. - Page 3  

post #61 of 292
jiminy crickets Darin, you *ARE* a glutton for punishment!!

;)
post #62 of 292
I will only add, that as a failed economist, I think we should be careful to draw too many conclusions about the worth of products based on the market, especially a specialty market such as high-end AV. Yes, I think there are some broad statements that can be made, but if we carry over the same analysis to audio, you'd come to the fast conclusion that Bose is the be-all-end-all in quality audio. good lord save us all....

I think video is a lot more resiliant against crazy bs and marketing than audio, but markets behave irrationally too, they're just people. I'm certainly no devout market fundamentalist, so yeap.
post #63 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
Yes, I think there are some broad statements that can be made, but if we carry over the same analysis to audio, you'd come to the fast conclusion that Bose is the be-all-end-all in quality audio. good lord save us all....
The analysis was more along the lines that if it is priced high and sells then there must be something there that people value. That even goes for Bose. I didn't say (and definitely didn't mean to imply) that the highest price thing must have the best video. But each thing that sells must be valued for some reason by those putting their cash down.

--Darin
post #64 of 292
I think you are putting a lot of faith in humans and logic. Perhaps this is where we differ. ;)
post #65 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by Deja Vu
... I guess I am a heretic because I don't like film as shown in local movie houses - it simply stinks and I do mean STINKS (at least most of the time) and you have all seen what I am talking about!
Grant
Projected film in an ideal screening room environment does not have CRT-like blacks. In fact from everything I have seen, the on/off CR is < 1,500:1. In addition projected film likely has a higher intra scene CR than a CRT, even a LC CRT. The fact of the matter is that if you are talking about film-like blacks, most of the current generation digitals have more film-like and accurate blacks than CRTs
Quote:
Originally posted by Deja Vu
[BI suspect a lot of the directors etc. have CRTs at home and those full fade to black scenes are there for them, if not for anyone else - that's what I'd be doing if I were involved in the film industry.
Grant [/b]
Most directors have 35mm film projectors in their homes, Kinoton is the reference brand if you are interested in getting one. Some directors and cinematographers do not like CRTs because it produces what they describe as a contrasty/cartoony image!
Most DPs are not as obsessed with fade-to-black/CR as we are on AVS. In fact the knowledgeable members of the film world have turned their focus to color gradation/subtleties issues regarding digital projection.
post #66 of 292
But all you are saying is that there is still a limitation in the CR range of that technology. I agree, you can achieve film-like in terms of CR with new digitals. But that doesn't mean that higher CR shouldn't be a goal just because that's a limitation of film. I can get film-like blacks on my CRT, and I don't think there'd be anyone who would prefer that in many scenes than much darker blacks, especially in certain black-out scenes.
post #67 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by ChrisWiggles
I think you are putting a lot of faith in humans and logic. Perhaps this is where we differ. ;)
On the Bose comment I didn't mean that what they valued was something that wasn't messed up. So, maybe we have the same "faith". :)
Quote:

I can get film-like blacks on my CRT, and I don't think there'd be anyone who would prefer that in many scenes than much darker blacks, especially in certain black-out scenes.
That is basically what I was going to say. You could calibrate your CRT to have brighter absolute blacks if you chose to.
Quote:
Originally posted by HoustonHoyaFan
In addition projected film likely has a higher intra scene CR than a CRT, even a LC CRT.
I've wondered about this before, but I've never seen any ANSI CR information for film that I can recall. Do you have any actual data? Of course, once you throw in the audience with their white t-shirts the ANSI probably isn't that great anyway.

--Darin
post #68 of 292
My memory is poor, but didn't a week or so a go there was a film thread, but I don't think we got any good ANSI CR numbers for film.

My eyes tell me that film gets pretty good ANSI CR, though, even with a ghost-white seattle audience. I would guestimate it's probably getting at least a hundred or so. For sure more than AC CRT.
post #69 of 292
Now looka here, my $10 Bose 301 rears are starting to get a complex. They've served me well for seven years now. Dollar for dollar I'll put em up against anything Radio Shack ever made.
post #70 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
The digitals still have a ways to go in on/off CR, but some can do blacks very well in the vast majority of mixed scenes. As I've said more than once, a digital like the 11k will have better ANSI CR and a good CRT better on/off CR, but when it comes to overall CR most will find the on/off CR of the digital to be more limiting at this point. I don't think I've ever said otherwise.

--Darin
Relative to this discussion my review of the Yamaha DPX-1200 is now on the Widescreen Review website (and in the mail). It has the best full-field (on-off) contrast ratio that I ever measured. CR = 4390:1, with dE = 1 at 100 IRE. Modified ANSI (4x4 checkerboard) contrast ratio measured 500:1. These are 22% and 28% improvements over my measurements of a DPX-1100.


Greg Rogers
AccuPel
Widescreen Review
post #71 of 292
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by gregr
Relative to this discussion my review of the Yamaha DPX-1200 is now on the Widescreen Review website (and in the mail). It has the best full-field (on-off) contrast ratio that I ever measured. CR = 4390:1, with dE = 1 at 100 IRE. Modified ANSI (4x4 checkerboard) contrast ratio measured 500:1. These are 22% and 28% improvements over my measurements of a DPX-1100.


Greg Rogers
AccuPel
Widescreen Review
Um, link please??

Thanks,

Cliff
post #72 of 292
gregr,
Didn't you just post to say you couldn't post a link?:)

Is this review free or do you have to pay to view? Also, how would you compare this projector to any CRT you have seen?

Thanks,
Ericglo
post #73 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2

I've wondered about this before, but I've never seen any ANSI CR information for film that I can recall. Do you have any actual data?
--Darin
I have been told that there are no ANSI checkerboard test loops available to use for the measurements. My conclusion is based on an A/B comparison between a G90 and a Kinoton viewing a variety of scenes. There was a difference in the washout of scrolling credits on the G90 vs the film projector.

I agree with you and ChrisWiggles on the need for more on/off CR. Ironically, the move to dCinema should over time increase the on/off, as techniques like dynamic light modulation matures. Unfortunately the priority seems to be more light output. The industry wants to go bigger and brighter.
post #74 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by overclkr
Um, link please??

Thanks,

Cliff
www.widescreenreview.com
May have to be a subscriber to view. Sign up. it is worth it. :)
post #75 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by Ericglo
gregr,
... Also, how would you compare this projector to any CRT you have seen?
There are so many plus and minus issues to consider when comparing projectors (CRT vs fixed-pixel and fixed-pixel vs fixed-pixel) that you have to decide what performance parameters are most important to you and then compare based on your own priorities. I just try to provide all the measurements, operational details, and observations that I can about each model and then you decide. I do try to explain how measurements and operational issues relate to what you actually see. It should be easy from my reviews to know how products stack up against each other on each performance issue, but you have to decide the priority of those issues based on your preferences.

For instance, the DPX-1200 has the best full-field contrast ratio I have ever measured from a fixed-pixel projector, but that still isn't as good as a CRT projector. Its intra-field contrast ratio is much better than any CRT projector, but not the best I've measured for a fixed-pixel projector. It is much sharper than any CRT projector, but it doesn't have as much resolution as the best CRT projectors (or a 1080p fixed-pixel projector). etc. etc. etc.

Greg Rogers
AccuPel
Widescreen Review
post #76 of 292
Thanks Greg. I haven't read the review yet, but I will. I tried to get a 1200 partially based on your 1100 review, but the pricing didn't work out the way I hoped. I think it would have been interesting to do a comparison with Steve Smith's G70 (he is the friend of mine who hosted the G70 vs 11k comparison). I would have probably brought a Firehawk screen this time as I believe that would have been the best fit for his room and the 1200 (when I took the 11k last time we just used his screen). I also probably would have brought an IMX lens for those who prefer what I believe is the more CRT look. One thing I would have been interested to see is how the colors compared, since the 1200 has the ability to adjust the primaries for both SD colorspace and HD colorspace and I believe get them right on. I doubt that any CRTs had been filtered to HD colorspace based on the time when they were developed, but I could be wrong. I know that many people rave about the colors on 3 chip DLPs, but I would have been surprised if the 1200 colors didn't beat the SIM2 HT500 I had to my eyes partially because that one was very difficult to calibrate (a blue hump at 80 IRE that wouldn't go away without killing the CR).

Could you comment on how you think the colors would likely compare between a 1200 and something like a G70 or G90? I know this is the CRT forum, but while we are at it, it would also be nice to get your subjective impression of the 1200 colors vs most 3 chip DLP colors if it isn't in the review.

Thanks,
Darin
post #77 of 292
Encroachment has occurred. The digitals will be kicking us to the curb before long.:D:D

Darin,
Unless VDC is doing HD colorspace, then I doubt it. This will have to be a mod to existing projectors. The Quantum Vision should be able to do it, but you know the story on that. After seeing the 35HD and the discussion about film color, I am becoming more sensitive to that parameter.

Ericglo
post #78 of 292
Indeed, thanks for the heads up greg, I'll swing by the newsstands soon.
post #79 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by Ericglo
After seeing the 35HD and the discussion about film color, I am becoming more sensitive to that parameter.
Interesting. Seems the more we know, the pickier we get. That is one of the problems around here since as most of us know, you have to pick your poison. Nothing beats everything in every way.

--Darin
post #80 of 292
I haven't followed this thread on purpose. I wanted to see where it was going, so now I jump to the 4th page, and read:

Bose
Radio Shack
Encroachment

Oh yeah baby, we're way off topic again.

I'm going to post this thread again, reworded of course, as soon as it drops to page 3 on the forum.

Perhaps I can read about Hyundais and Porsches the next time 'round.

;)
post #81 of 292
Eric, I presume that you could further filter the primaries on CRTs for other primaries without having to have whole new phosphors, since the phosphors now are not SMPTE C accurate (the SD primaries). I'm not super picky about the primaries, it's something I take note of, but don't dwell on, primarily(pun intended! har har... :( ) because mine is unfiltered.
post #82 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by darinp2
Could you comment on how you think the colors would likely compare between a 1200 and something like a G70 or G90? I know this is the CRT forum, but while we are at it, it would also be nice to get your subjective impression of the 1200 colors vs most 3 chip DLP colors if it isn't in the review.

Thanks,
Darin
With respect to most performance parameters (intra-field contrast, brightness, resolution, white field uniformity, and more) I think the Sony G90 set the standard for CRT projectors. Unfortunately, its color accuracy stopped me from owning one, because that is a high priority to me. Its red primary is far oversaturated, much like the native red primary of many fixed-pixel projectors, and the green primary is much too yellow (lime-colored). That completely eliminates dark green hues from its color palette, and landscapes and fields are yellow-green where greener pastures should be. As a result of the green primary, purples are too blue. As a result of the green and red primaries, skin tones will appear cold unless the white reference is calibrated redder than D65 (which an inexperienced calibrator may fail to understand), which also helps the purple colors.

The DPX-1200 can produce virtually perfect color (Rec 601 or Rec 709) via its digital color management system using analog RGB signals. There's no grayscale tracking adjustements for HDMI or YPbPr, so that is one thing that Yamaha should still do to improve color with those signals.

I haven't received any 3-chip DLP projectors with a digital color management system yet.

Greg Rogers
AccuPel
Widescreen Review
post #83 of 292
Greg,
I have measured the primary colors on the Sony G90 many times and agree that the G needs to be fixed as it does't hit it's mark as a primary color. But the fix is very easy. It's just a matter of changing the G CElement to the same one that is used on the Marquee 9500 series. These are available from either 3M or VDC. Changing the CElement is not that hard and can be done in the field with Sony's improved design to R & R the tubes.
The G90 and Marquee 9500 use the same P19*** MEC tubes with the same phosphor. Why Sony choose to use a different tint G CElement is anyones guess. My guess is that they were playing a specs game and wanted as much light output as they could possible get and gave up a small % of G accuracy to achieve that.
This will take the pastel G the G90 as it comes from the factory and put it where it should be as a primary color which in turn gives you the correct pallet of colors. Of course the PJ would have to be recalibrated for D65 but that should not be a problem.
Red on a G90 hit's it mark as a primary color as does Blue. So changing the G CElement and recalibrating the G90 to D65 would give much more accurate color rendition than it comes as stock from the factory. This would also force the calibrator to add more R to achieve D65 which warms up the skin tones. As far as I'm concerned this is a "must do" mod for the G90.
The same basic idea holds true for the Marquee 9500 and most of it's variations. They are shipped with a clear R CElement and this must be changed to a R CElement also available from the same sources mentioned above. This is the same C Element as is used on the G90. This is also a big improvement for the 9500.

Terry
post #84 of 292
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
Greg,
I have measured the primary colors on the Sony G90 many times and agree that the G needs to be fixed as it does't hit it's mark as a primary color. But the fix is very easy. It's just a matter of changing the G CElement to the same one that is used on the Marquee 9500 series. These are available from either 3M or VDC. Changing the CElement is not that hard and can be done in the field with Sony's improved design to R & R the tubes.
The G90 and Marquee 9500 use the same P19*** MEC tubes with the same phosphor. Why Sony choose to use a different tint G CElement is anyones guess. My guess is that they were playing a specs game and wanted as much light output as they could possible get and gave up a small % of G accuracy to achieve that.
This will take the pastel G the G90 as it comes from the factory and put it where it should be as a primary color which in turn gives you the correct pallet of colors. Of course the PJ would have to be recalibrated for D65 but that should not be a problem.
Red on a G90 hit's it mark as a primary color as does Blue. So changing the G CElement and recalibrating the G90 to D65 would give much more accurate color rendition than it comes as stock from the factory. This would also force the calibrator to add more R to achieve D65 which warms up the skin tones. As far as I'm concerned this is a "must do" mod for the G90.
The same basic idea holds true for the Marquee 9500 and most of it's variations. They are shipped with a clear R CElement and this must be changed to a R CElement also available from the same sources mentioned above. This is the same C Element as is used on the G90. This is also a big improvement for the 9500.

Terry

Terry,

It's funny you say that. I had the local HT shop calibrator over not too long ago and he was complaining about the green on my G70 not being accurate.

Are the C-elements you speak of from VDC available for the G70 as well??

Thanks,

Cliff
post #85 of 292
Anyone know what they used on the 1292 ?

The same green as the G90, or one like the Marquee, or perhaps something completely different ? (To almost quote Monthy Python... ;) )


Cheers,
Erling
post #86 of 292
Cliff,
Your G70 CElement is very accurate and should not require any change. I always measure primary colors as part of a calibration and don't ever recall seeing anything wrong with the G70 primaries. The NEC XG/LC series used the same CElements.
It is only the G90 that they put a lighter G Colored CElement on. Spatz posted some pictures in this forum a while ago of the G90 G CElement against the 3M G CElement that would be used in say a Marquee and you can clearly see the difference.

Erling, I haven't set up that many 1292's and it's been a while but I don't remember them suffering in the G primaries. You should be OK.

Terry
post #87 of 292
As far as the economics of CRT vs. Digital go, there is little doubt in my mind that digital projectors are cheaper to maintain than CRTs - take tubes and lamps. My HT1000 should be at least $1,000.00 Canadian cheaper to operate over a 10 year period (as if I'll own it for ten years) than my CRT. I am in the process of replacing all three tubes in my 8500LC and factoring in shipping, taxes, instalation and of course the cost of the tubes themselves makes this is a very expensive proposition. To change a bulb takes about 3 minutes. To change tubes takes hours when recalibration is taken into account, in fact just packaging the dud tube to be exchanged for the new one takes lots of time. You have to a be a bit of a masochist to stick with CRT, however, there are rewards and it would now be very difficult for me to go back to a "filmlike" experience.

Cheers,

Grant

P.S. Darin, your tenacity is to be commended.
post #88 of 292
That's not true. Cost of ownership for CRT projectors is typically lower than digital projectors over a 10,000 hour operating lifespan. CRTs will not need to be replaced before 10,000 hours unless they've been driven hard, in abusive service. How much does 10,000 hours' worth of lamps cost? That's variable, but a word case scenario can be a 1000 dollar lamp every 1000 hours. (Example: AmPro ALICE, 1st generation 3 chip DLP, the 500 watt lamp assembly was near a thousand dollars and the usable life of the lamp was about a thousand hours, too.)

Changing all three tubes in an 8500 costs 1500 dollars (if you return your old tubes for rebuild and they're accepted as rebuildable) and takes a few hour's labor to for the full swap if you know what you're doing.

And what digital projector ever makes it to the 10,000 hour mark? They're
all obsoleted and sold used LONG before that time ever occurs!


There's no way that you're still going to be playing with that same digital
projector in ten years. Its expected service life is THREE.


Digital projectors' color filter elements also get sunburned. They can be expensive to replace.


I watched The Incredibles on my unmodded Marquee 8000 last night, at "only " 800x600 resolution, courtesy of a Faroudja DVP2200 scaler, and not using all of it as it's a widescreen movie. On a 96" wide screen, the image was clearly better than when I saw this movie in the theater. It was STUNNING,
and I don't use that term lightly. And only a CRT projector that's properly
calibrated can deliver the true, inky blacks and accurately rendered deep grey scale that I get, too.

I'm hardly a masochist. I haven't done ANYTHING to my 8000 in
several months except turn it on, let it warm up for a few minutes while I
set up the movie snacks, seating, etc. and then drop in a disc and GO.
No fiddling with convergence or anything, because it's rock solid and I am one
picky SOB when it comes to convergence.

Ease of use of my 8000, once it was set up and calibrated, has been
as simple as can be. Turn it on, warm it up, and watch a movie. NOTHING
else needed. No more tweaking, fiddling, or adjusting is required. It just
stomps digital @$$ in every way except brightness, and I have quite enough
of that anyway. If a bright scene can make you squint, you don't need more
than that!

CRT projectors are cheaper to operate in the long term and have much better
longevity. Plus, the advantage of having NO FIXED PIXEL STRUCTURE is, to my mind, almost incalculable. I do NOT like fixed pixels if they're noticeable,
and so far, they always are.

CJ
post #89 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by Chuchuf
This will take the pastel G the G90 as it comes from the factory and put it where it should be as a primary color which in turn gives you the correct pallet of colors.
...
Red on a G90 hit's it mark as a primary color as does Blue.
...
I always measure primary colors as part of a calibration and don't ever recall seeing anything wrong with the G70 primaries.
What do you mean by correct and what you are comparing to? As we've pretty much covered, the primaries are speced differently for SD than HD. Are you comparing to the SD primaries or HD primaries? If the SD primaries then they are wrong for HD. I would guess SD, but if you are saying they hit the HD primaries then there are electronic things that could be done with the right tools to get correct colors for SD (as the Yamaha does). If they just hit the SD primaries then you are going to have to forego the larger colorspace of HD for watching HD (unless you change something like refiltering all the tubes). In a year when I'm watching HD-DVD and/or BluRay I will want the HD colorspace, not SD (except for any disks that get encoded incorrectly), just as that is what I would like for D-Theater and other HD now. Granted, many digitals aren't performing up to the standards here either, so it is nice that Greg is pointing this stuff out so that it will put some pressure on the manufacturers.

Here are the differences for red, green and blue:

Red:
SD: (0.630, 0.340)
HD: (0.640, 0.330)

Green:
SD: (0.310, 0.595)
HD: (0.300, 0.600)

Blue:
SD: (0.155, 0.070)
HD: (0.150, 0.060)

--Darin
post #90 of 292
Quote:
Originally posted by Deja Vu
As far as the economics of CRT vs. Digital go, there is little doubt in my mind that digital projectors are cheaper to maintain than CRTs - take tubes and lamps.
I'm quite sure you posted this as a joke.

The TCO on a digital is much higher for some of the reasons CJ mentioned. (I was in Ultimate Electronics a few days ago and I guy came in to replace his Sharp 9000 bulb after 1.5 years of service--note, he was replacing it becuase it was dead, not because his picture had started to look like junk.)

The other thing to remember is the asset value at resale time. You will loose a substantially greater amount of money on your digital "investment" then you will on your used CRT investment when time to sell comes around (same is true with leasing vs. buying a car--it is rarely cheaper to lease a car, but so many do it because it looks cheaper since the monthly expense is so much lower).

Dave
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