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One thread for Niro, Mainstage, Zvox, Bose 3-2-1--one box sound? - Page 5

post #121 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_pilgrim View Post

ximori - - I am looking forward to your comments on the fullstage. Hope it was worth the wait.

I previewed the Mainstage HD for a couple of hours...well, I still have my socks on. Without getting too much in detail I came out very disappointed with this speaker. It definitely isn't worth the wait - and you're probably better off keeping the Binaura or wait till something new or more valuable comes out. Put simply, the Mainstage HD sounds as it looks - small and thin. I'm thinking this should be compared more with the Niro's movie mouse or one of those bose wave systems? I should have known better by just looking at specs alone and size of it. In the surrounds department...ZERO. I even went to a smaller room, like 10x12 to see if there will be some improvement.

This makes my choice easier. Having now heard the Niro Reference, Yamaha YSP, and Mainstage HD, the Niro is just a different animal. And since the Niro Pro II is slight cheaper, has the same core but different design as the Reference - this is what I think will be getting.
post #122 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximori View Post

I previewed the Mainstage HD for a couple of hours...well, I still have my socks on. Without getting too much in detail I came out very disappointed with this speaker. It definitely isn't worth the wait - and you're probably better off keeping the Binaura or wait till something new or more valuable comes out. Put simply, the Mainstage HD sounds as it looks - small and thin. I'm thinking this should be compared more with the Niro's movie mouse or one of those bose wave systems? I should have known better by just looking at specs alone and size of it. In the surrounds department...ZERO. I even went to a smaller room, like 10x12 to see if there will be some improvement.

This makes my choice easier. Having now heard the Niro Reference, Yamaha YSP, and Mainstage HD, the Niro is just a different animal. And since the Niro Pro II is slight cheaper, has the same core but different design as the Reference - this is what I think will be getting.

I also was dissapointed by the FUllstage when I first received it. BUT I found that adjustiing the settings on the substage greatly improved things. The setting they tell you to start with are terrible for my set up which I think is typical. The Fullstage is next to the substage at the front of the room. The factory sets the phase to 180 and the level at 0. I found that setting the phase to 0 made a huge difference. Much much better. Now I am increasing the level to see what works best.

A little tweaking went a long way even if the socks are still on. For 600$ I think the fullstage is a good deal.
post #123 of 580
rm, I've tried just about every setting. While there are improvements by positioning the sub the sound still feels crammed inside the box without having an open sense wide soundstage. And have you heard those annoying clicking noises as you increase the volume? Perhaps your experience is different from mine, however, I compared and based this from the Niro sound. Thanks for chiming in thoughto each his own. I personally won't spend 600 bucks for that quality.

Btw, I found the Substage a better piece. It is well built and cool that you can slip one underneath your couch or bedroom. I'd say the sub sounds like a real subwoofer and delivers the low ends quite well.
post #124 of 580
Luckily I didn't hear any annoying clicks as I increased the sound. Unfortunately I haven't heard the NIRO system so I can't compare against that. I do have a real 5.1 system in my basement so I know what you mean by sound stage.

So far my experience seems to depend greatly on the source. For television the system isn't very expansive but I didn't have that expectation. With cable I am thankful I can get a picture . The mainstage is a marginal improvment over the sound on my toshiba rear projection television in this case. The rear projection sound wasn't all that bad since the sound is coming from a pretty sizable speaker. The mainstage improved on the clarity of the sound, not in the surround sensation. On the other hand, DVDs like Batman Begins and Star wars III sounded much more robust and I was pleased with the way the system performed.

At this point I plan on keeping the mainstagehd + substage although I agree it didn't live up to the hype. I would be very interested to see what other people think.
post #125 of 580
I just got the binuara system today, and for my purposes it seems like it will do ok. However i have a couple of problems that i do not know if there are fixes or not. One, i get a hum from the subwoofer at any volume over 30, it doesn't matter if the sub is + or - 10 db. Second, there is almost no output when the sub is in dolby prologic mode. I have both my xbox and cable box hooked directly to the unit via the L&R outputs from the component cables.

Any suggestions?
post #126 of 580
nferra2,

I don't have mine yet but could there be electrical interference somehow?

Hopefully dc_pilgrim or mczolton will be able to offer a suggestion as they already have the system. Haven't read about this problem in their posts. Have you tried the trouble shooting guide at Binaura website? Not sure where you live but if you are in Canada they have a repair centre and number below. If you get this issue cleared up be sure and post please.

Global Electronic Supplies Inc.
Binaura Repair Center
5600 Timberlea Blvd
Mississauga, Ontario
Canada L4W 4M6

1-800-668-8776
post #127 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by nferra2 View Post

I just got the binuara system today, ... get a hum from the subwoofer at any volume over 30, it doesn't matter if the sub is + or - 10 db.

This humming of sub raises a question I've wondered about. My nearby Radio Shack is pretty insistent on selling the Monster-brand of surge protector for all expensive AV components, especially LCD and/or plasma screens. I'd think that all audio components could benefit too.

Just a little curious about how many feel a surge protector / filter is important when connecting AV components to their house power?
post #128 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by sv_chamelea View Post

This humming of sub raises a question I've wondered about. My nearby Radio Shack is pretty insistent on selling the Monster-brand of surge protector for all expensive AV components, especially LCD and/or plasma screens. I'd think that all audio components could benefit too.

Just a little curious about how many feel a surge protector / filter is important when connecting AV components to their house power?

I stick to a basic APC surge protector, nothing fancy. Ratshack just tells you that so they can sell you something absurdly overpriced.

I've never heard hum out of any sub anywhere I've lived, and I have always just used a basic surge protector.
post #129 of 580
Sorry, my unit doesn't hum.

On surge protectors - - (or conditioners or whatever) there is a long thread in the RPTV area (I guess some go UPS to shut down the bulb or something) which discusses different types. Its a frequently discussed topic all over the board.

That said, I have a surge protector, and I thinking of adding a UPS (if I spot a deal) due to 'the binaura needing to be reset after power outages' issue that I have.
post #130 of 580
My Binaura sub doesn't hum. I am using a Monster MP HT800 surge protector with my Binaura. Nothing fancy. I do have a PureAV power conditioner on my other setup. The benefit is debatable as dc_pilgrim suggested. I wouldn't plug my equipment directly into the wall outlet though.

Thanks,
Mark
post #131 of 580
I ordered the Niro Pro II and Movie mouse today. I expect some differences from the Reference b/c of the Pro II's wider body. And I'm not sure why the CNET review gave it a higher score than the Reference either.
post #132 of 580
Got a mainstage, and I'm keeping it.

I had a nice budget amp with largish Yamaha bookshelfs and a mid-range ($100 in 1999) center channel. However, speaker positioning in my room was severely compromised.

The mainstage sounded the same/better for dialogue and movie sounds. It is deficient for stereo music listening. The "surround" mode provides some space, but lots of DSP artifacts. The "non-surround" mode is clearer, but very point-source. It's not bad, and I'm no audiophile (I live in a apt. - no real volume here, either)

The timber of the mainstage is cold, but I wouldn't call it harsh. My 5.1 system was warmer.

I did the comparisons without the sub turned on.

I packed up the 150 feet of speaker wire, 5 speakers, and amp (which make a stack the size of 5 mainstage cartons, and probably 15 actual units.

Cabling - to solve the whole 36 feet of coax problem to run the digital signal (I have a PJ and preferred short video cable runs), I bought 2 12 ft "shielded" phono cables (m-f) from Radio Shack. At $3.99 each, I was willing to risk problems. Combined these with a 12 ft sub cable I had, and no problems so far with hums, feedback, clicks, etc.

Using my sub greatly improves the mainstage, though the mainstage sub level adj. is problematic. To use the full range of the mainstage, the level adj needs to be turned quite high. This means the level on my sub is quite low (nearly to min). I may decide that I'd rather have the sub cover those freqs. Still experimenting.

HOOKUP ALERT: Do use the right channel of the mainstage sub output for driving your sub. The left channel has content, but it is severly limited. I didn't read the instructions too carefully, and missed this point.

Final conclusion - sounds about the same except for music. Lots smaller. Removes a bunch of speakers from my room. WAF off the charts (no amps, no sources, no speakers, 5 button remote, etc). Easy to setup and easy to use.

"Fixed" the green LED problem with blacked out masking tape cut to 1/4" square size. Can't see the light, can't see the tape.

I got a refurb from soundmatters and it looks and sounds perfect. YMMV.
post #133 of 580
Quote:


I ordered the Niro Pro II and Movie mouse today. I expect some differences from the Reference b/c of the Pro II's wider body. And I'm not sure why the CNET review gave it a higher score than the Reference either.

I'm pretty sure you would have been happy with either one. I've got the Reference and love it. Although I never test drove the Pro II, my suspicion is that NIRO designed the Pro II for aesthetics, the Reference for audiophiles. They've got a forum on their site where the system's designer, Niro Nakamichi, writes personal replies to any questions, and that's the drift I got from his comments. In reality, I'm guessing there's not a whole lot of difference between the two.

I ordered the Movie Mouse too, even though I thought it might be a gimmck, but the thing really works. You're going to find it handy for late nights; I usually take mine out and put it on my coffee table right in front of me.
post #134 of 580
thanks dave for compiling the list of products for this thread, it was a big help for research purposes! thanks also to ximori, who's thoughts on niro helped steer me in that direction. i've also jumped on the niro bandwagon. i ordered a reference system that should be arriving this week. i'm going to be quite disappointed if my socks don't get knocked off as the best speakers i have ever owned previous to this is a pair of klipsch gmx a2.1s.

anyone know why the niro prices have been going up with each successive generation even though they've been removing features (dvd player, radio) from the systems? i'd like to think it's because the newer products are that more sophisticated sonically, but that could be wishful thinking.

i wish there was a good way to determine the "value" of each one of these one box 5.1 solutions. for example, i would not expect the zvox to outperform the niro (at least, i hope it doesn't!), but it would be nice to know if the niro was really worth five times the amount of the zvox in terms of sound quality.

i've enjoyed this thread a great deal. thanks guys!
post #135 of 580
More Mainstage comments.

Listened to a Tracy Chapman album (I think the fast car album) last night. I'm not a fan, but put it in once a year or so. Anyway, track 1 has this persistent treble sound in the right channel. The mainstage actually imaged this sound! Spatially it was up and far, far right (like five, six feet from the speaker location). Imaging occured in both surround and "non-surround" mode.

I have the mainstage on a carpeted floor (we watch a 7.5 x 15 feet of a wall as our "screen"), and decided to angle it less dramatically (had it full tilt up, changed to half tilt). I think this allowed for better dispersion at the listening location, I suspect that we were literally "under" the bubble. Anyway, its growing on me for music.

I've spent some more time on the sub-level setting. I listened to some male voice tracks, and (starting from "off") increased the sub level control on the mainstage until it reproduced all of the voice. I wanted to get as much of the voice from the mainstage as possible, because it is too easy to localize when coming from the subwoofer. Then I moved to the sub and increased it's crossover until it started to also reproduce the voice, then backed off a little. I'm sure more tweaking will occur, but at least I now have some latitude with my sub's level control - before it was between about 0 and 1.5 on the level. Now I can get up to about 4 before it becomes overpowering.

We watched some silly art film last night, all dialogue with these strong "mood setting" musical elements between scenes - random very low beats and orchestral stuff. Mainstage did really well on both elements, and integrated nice and transparently with my sub when needed.
post #136 of 580
Anyone had any experience with the Sony DAV-X1? I found it locally for around $500, and was thing about going that route.
post #137 of 580
LCD - no problem for the list. Let us know how the Niro treats you.

Chuck. There is a link in post #3 to a thread. Many folks feel that Sony isn't a good choice for audio (especially at the $1k MSRP). Its primary point of interest compared to others seems to be its HDMI port.
post #138 of 580
My Binaura has made it to the local post office down the street. Hoping I can pick it up tomorrow.

PS:

Chuck Smith,

I have had the Sony HT-DDW740 5.1 system for a few years now. It has 600 watts of power including the powered sub woofer (100 watts). I'm no expert audiophile but I can tell you the system sounds incredible to my ears. I use it exclusively for DVDs. Tried a CD once but it didn't sound as good as a dedicated stereo system.
post #139 of 580
grinchy, is it mainstage or mainstage HD?

Bert, I remember reading in that forum awhile back where Niro mentioned that there was hardly any difference between the Ref and Pro II. And that it was only for aesthetic reason. Although one article review (and I forgot which) did mention that he slightly preferred the sound of the Pro II. I'm guessing surround improvement might have to do with the wider body b/c the L and R channel are more distal. Anyhow, I agree either one will sound great and any slight differences should really be less of an issue. Btw, thanks - your post #40 is what propelled me to go for the Niro system.

LCD, you won't believe your ears. Try using digital coax for listening. And don't forget to toggle between the six main buttons in the remote - bass, treble, dialog, subwoofer, center, and surround to find your own proper settings. I know $1K is a lot of money, so I'd be interested to know from you if the whole package warrants the price. glad that they have a nice 30 day return policy with no restocking fee.
post #140 of 580
Xmori - It is a Mainstage. The older model. I like the new feature set on the Mainstage HD better (more power, reversible channels for use as a surround, can control it without the remote), but it was 2x the cost of my Mainstage refurb. I used that money to buy 1/2 a new subwoofer. Since I live in an apt I didn't see the need for more power.
I agree with your comment on "surround", I don't hear any there, but with the speaker properly positioned, there is a good wide, spacious soundstage that is fine for movies and music.

It's funny, because I was a super early adopter of Dolby Pro-Logic. I actually had a stand-alone Kenwood amp that I used with my old old school JVC receiver. The Kenwood provided a whopping 50W Center and 25W to each surround (output line level for the JVC to run the fronts). Used the pristine signal from a Hi-Fi VCR. This was in 1993. It was all about the surround.

But honestly, I got so tired of the speakers everywhere. I've always lived in an apt. and trying to figure a way to run the wires, and set the speakers on something in every new apt without drilling holes in the walls was getting really old. Not to mention moving the darn things (I had a full amplifier with 4 largish bookshelfs and a real center channel). The Mainstage is like a cathartic release. It makes acceptable sound, it's tiny, it's self-powered. And in a typical installation (non-PJ), it should be a three wire hookup (sub, signal, power).

FWIW, I love the idea of the Niro, but dropping a grand was out of the Q.
post #141 of 580
dc_pilgrim and/or mczolton,

Just got the Binaura set up and tested for a few minutes with Master and Commander. So far sounds great. The build quality is quite solid and the set up literally taking a few minutes.

Since you have more experience with the system, can you tell me if you have made volume adjustments to the sub and centre channel? I realize these adjustments are very subjective but just the same I'm curious.

Thanks
post #142 of 580
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundmax View Post

dc_pilgrim and/or mczolton,

Just got the Binaura set up and tested for a few minutes with Master and Commander. So far sounds great. The build quality is quite solid and the set up literally taking a few minutes.

Since you have more experience with the system, can you tell me if you have made volume adjustments to the sub and centre channel? I realize these adjustments are very subjective but just the same I'm curious.

Thanks

Depending on where you place your sub, you may need to make adjustments. My sub is behind my display, in a corner. For DD sources, I set the sub to +1 (center at 0). For Binaura Vocal I set the sub to -5. I used an SPL meter and a calibration DVD to balance the level of the sub with respect to the main speaker unit.

Mark
post #143 of 580
Sure do appreciate all the valuable experience posted here. Personal comparisons between different audio manufacturers - amazingly valuable!

My viewing room is 15' square, 10' sloped volume ceiling, with an openly adjacent 8' dining area. It's was a hassle to mount and wire my old Lifestyle 12 Bose, which went silent (amp/sub problem) anyhow before I embedded wiring. I've reached a tentative conclusion the Binaura will provide a perfectly acceptable alternative for me.

But the units are few & far between. Is this a new company still lacking in distribution? ... and what is a reasonable street price?
post #144 of 580
mczolton,

Thanks for the reply. I'll tweak mine over the next few days. I have not hooked up the TV though at this point. Sticking to DVD for now.

sv_chamelea,

I agree, excellent posts. They helped in my decision.

The website http://www.binaura.com/index2.htm says they were incorporated in 2002. I got mine from Best Buy $399 $CDN on sale from the $599 regular price. Web special only. I did find an electronics store that had them in stock so I was able to see and touch the unit in person. This also helped with my decision as I could see that it had a sturdy build quality. I also saw a unit for sale on eBay but I was/am a little concerned about warranty and recourse should the unit become defective. This is why I went with a Best Buy type company. Hope this helps.
post #145 of 580
Some guy sells them on e-bay for a bit more than $300 shipped. I think Target.com has them for MSRP (they often have 10% off coupons lately too). BB.com (USA) used to carry them, and Mark and I got them on their "Wednesday" sale for $280 shipped with tax (or at least thats what I paid). I was tenative buying, and appreciated having the return policy.

I think the company has an agreement with some other odd named distribution company too (for MSRP).

Soundmax - - I am kind of a basic user with this thing. Its jammed behind furniture, and our power goes out pretty often. So I just run it as it turns on, and adjust by ear while I watch, depending what I watch. I have the SPL meter and AVIA, but haven't bothered with it. I usually am bumping up the center channel since I want to emphasis hearing the dialog. I bump the sub on the rare times I am watching an action movie and I am not worried about waking the baby. Doesn't happen very often.
post #146 of 580
Oh, I think they are a CA company, too - - so maybe you can contact them directly and try to get them to sell you one.
post #147 of 580
the niro reference and movie mouse i ordered were supposed to arrive today. childishly, i actually took the day off waiting for them which just mad me angrier. the movie mouse arrived, but UPS left it on my doorstep without ringing the doorbell. i found it out there two hours after they had dropped it off. the reference did not arrive. of course when i called them up they told me the driver had made an attempt to deliver, which was a lie because i didn't leave the house all day. no yellow sticker was left on the door.

ANYway. the movie mouse is a lot bigger than i thought it would be. it also bothers me a little bit that it is made in china. for something so expensive i was hoping for another manufacturing destination. the casing is made of relatively heavy plastic with metal grilles over the drivers. it definitely doesn't feel like something one would pay $229 (manufacturer direct price) for. will post a full review of the movie mouse and the reference, if i ever receive it!
post #148 of 580
Yes they are a CA company, this was taken from there site for sales and marketing:

23 Oak Road, Santa Cruz , CA 95060
Tel: 831-426-4244
post #149 of 580
Dave, Ximori and Forum members,

If you couldn't tell I was anal before this post, you'll know for sure by the end of the first paragraph! I'm completely new at review writing, so please forgive my rambling and lack of technical knowledge.

The Movie Mouse box came in a larger box filled with styrofoam peanuts. Unfortunately, they put the Mouse box on the bottom of the box full of peanuts, so the shock absorption at the base was non-existent. The Mouse unit seems to be a sturdy thing and appears none the worse for wear. Inside the Mouse box are two styrofoam holders keeping it in place. It was wrapped in a thin foam bag. Two pieces of tape are supposed to hold the bag shut tightly. One piece of tape was already half way rolled off and not keeping the bag shut. There are a couple of scuff marks on the shell of the Mouse that I was able remove with a bit of effort and a damp towel. There is a miniscule chip in the base. This is making me paranoid that I have received a unit that was returned by someone else.

The Reference unit came in a large box stamped "Made in China" with four separate boxes inside of it. The instructions and warranty came in a ziploc bag thrown on top. The instruction booklet had a big crease diagonally down the front page. For a $1k piece of hardware the presentation so far left a lot to be desired. One of the boxes was empty, used just as a placeholder for the rest. The amplifier, subwoofer and speaker unit each had their own separate box. Each cable for each unit cannot be removed and was bound up using saran wrap. As soon as I took the subwoofer out of its styrofoam holders and plastic bag, the cloth grille fell off. I tried to put it back on the driver only to see that two of the plastic pegs had broken and were now stuck inside their respective holes on the rim of the woofer driver. Inauspicious.

The remote uses 3 AAA batteries which are included. It is made in Korea. There is a sticker that is laid out over the main button grid that has the button names labelled on it. The sticker has a faint grey slash down the middle that I don't think is supposed to be there. There are also two areas on the the side where the sticker was not laid down entirely flat and now bubbles away from the remote.

The subwoofer looks very nice but feels extremely light for its size. It is 11.7(W) x 12.9(H) x 11.7(D) in. My GMX A2.1 woofer is about 10x10x16 and seems to weigh much more.

The speaker unit is fairly heavy and has a solid plastic shell. It feels substantial. There is some discoloration of the plastic where the cable meets the unit. The plastic grilles covering the drivers feel somewhat cheap.

The amplifier has a very good fit and finish. It is the only part of the package that looks AND feels expensive.

The Reference is extremely easy to hook up. Plug in the amp, plug the subwoofer and speakers into the amp, plug your optical cable in one of the slots and you're all set. I had it hooked up to an Xbox with the optical out (sorry Ximori, no coaxial option!).

I haven't had much time to test the audio capabilities of the unit yet. I listened to a couple of CDs (Getz/Gilberto, Diana Krall, Cowboy Junkies). The Reference sounded a lot better than my GMXs. The soundstage was much wider, the voices and instruments much more prominent and distinct from each other. I also played some Halo 2 and DOA Ultimate. The sound was incredible, although I did notice some distortion (clipping?) with certain female voices (Lei-fang, Cortana). It almost seemed like the microphone got too close to the actor's mouth and there was some feedback or something. I put some headphones on to see if I could duplicate the feedback, but could not. I noticed more surround effects with the games than with the movies I tested out.

I watched a little bit of Lost in Translation. The sound of water splashing seems to be extremely sibilant in all the movies I watched. The scenes when Bill Murray and Scarlett Johansson meet in the bar had the best surround effects. I felt as if I was there in the bar with them. The clink of glasses and tinkle of utensils was very apparent all around. I followed that up with The Return of the King. The best effect I recall from my time with the film was when a nazgul carrying the Witch King flew across the screen. Most of the movie sounds remained in front of me however. As every reviewer of the Reference has stated, at no time did I really hear any sounds behind me or even directly to my sides.

The subwoofer is many times better than my GMX sub. It blends in very well with the speakers and is truly multidirectional. I believe that indicates that the full range speaker unit has a fairly low crossover. With my GMXs, the satellites don't go very low so I can actually pinpoint the sound coming from the sub.

The Movie Mouse works as advertised, but upon initial testing I can't really recommend the purchase. To get a good effect from it, the volume has to be fairly loud. I'm not sure in what situations I would want to use it over the main speaker unit. I purchased it because I have a two-year old son sleeping upstairs at night.

To sum up, the Reference is the best sounding piece of audio gear I have ever owned. In both movies and music I noticed many nuances in the audio that I was not able to discern with my old setup. However, the surround effects were a bit underwhelming, but maybe my expectations were too high. I have no idea what a real 5.1 setup sounds like. The stereo performance is also the best I have ever heard, but at no time did I ever feel like the performances were truly "real". The fit and finish of the components is somewhat disappointing and, again, I am bothered by the fact that this $1k+ piece of gear is entirely made in China. It may be an unfair bias on my part. Hopefully I will get in some more time with the unit over the weekend. I'll post some more thoughts later.

In the meantime, I wouldn't mind hearing a little bit more from some of you other Niro owners about your units. I'm feeling a little nervous about my purchase. Is it possible that the Reference is too powerful for the room I have it in? The living room is half of a 10'(H) by 11'(W) by 26'(L) space with the other half as a dining room. The Niro is along the 25' wall so it sits about 8 feet from my viewing area. Would the 600 actually sound better in my space? What are the consequences of too much power in too small a space?
post #150 of 580
Seems like if it's too powerful you can turn the volume down. . . Power is really good to highlight dynamic elements, I don't use my equipment at max (or even high volume). But then again, Mainstage original is only rated at 95 db, it isn't "powerful".

Thanks for the thorough review. You have to believe your ears, and it "sounds" like the unit sounds expensive.
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