One thread for Niro, Mainstage, Zvox, Bose 3-2-1--one box sound? - Page 7

d-v-c,
The price I managed to get (but passed on) at Best Buy was $1040. There was an open box unit for $1299 and I found an old 30% off coupon for Best Buy open box products on the web. I asked if they would still accept it even though it experied in July 05. They said they would give me an additional 10% off the open box. I countered with 20% and they said they'd go for it.

I am amazed at how great the discounts can be if you are willing to barter a bit. I'm never a jerk about it, either. I just talk to the people.

d-v-c:

The Kenwood VRS7100 has Dolby Virtual Speaker (+Dolby Headphone). I use it with a couple of Omnisats and an Omni S8 subwoofer. I've also used it with Axiom M22ti's and Axiom M3ti's + a SVS 25-31 CS+ sub. For output the SVS can't be beat, but the S8 is fine for my purposes (bedroom system). Although I really like the Axiom's I prefer the Omnisat's for HT - especially when combined with Dolby Virtual Speaker.

I also own the Zvox, and Dolby Virtual Speaker with the Omni's is definitely a significant step up.

A 2.1 setup with Omnisats, S8 subwoofer and the VRS7100 can be found for less than $700 - I think this is a better HT system than the 301.

If size and cost is no issue, exchanging the S8 with a SVS, Omni S12 or Hsu STF/VTF 2 will give you a fantastic 2.1 set-up for less than $1,000

well, the niro reference had to go back. mostly because i got laid off this week, but also because of the build quality. still, i was sad to see it go. my wife encouraged me to keep it if i liked it, so i must thank her for that. i can't say that i'm entirely pleased with the 30-day "free" trial, since it cost me almost $100 in shipping charges.

it is possible that i just somehow received a lemon, but with multiple components having minor issues, i'm not so sure. by the time i sent it back this was the list of damages, most of which were apparent when i received the unit:

main speaker unit - discolored plastic finish in the cable recess area (rear of unit)
movie mouse - small chip in the base, one of the black plastic feet fell off (cheap glue)
remote - peeling button label
subwoofer - damaged grille (could no longer be mounted on the driver frame), large piece of plastic rolling around loose inside the subwoofer chamber (my guess is it is the plastic vent leading to the bottom port)

the performance of the niro was quite good and i had grown fond of it by the time i had to return it, but the build quality vs. price ratio in my experience was atrocious. i did like the design of the product enough that i might be foolish enough to order another one when i am working again, but i hope something else catches my eye before then!

i am now browsing satellite speakers, subwoofers and receivers for a 2.1 or 3.1 setup (not serious about buying, of course. thanks cathor for planting the seed...i think!). anyone know where i can find a list of small surround receivers? must they all be gigantic? the size of the niro was one of the things i liked very much about it.

it's funny. when i first joined the forum i was in the market for a 37" lcd television. i swore i was going to buy an aquos when the price hit $2000. that desire morphed into a 42" plasma into a 50" plasma into "i'm going to wait for SED". somehow i ended up in the audio section and before i knew it, the niro was sitting in my living room. and now, i'm back where i started, owning nothing except my 10-year-old 27" sony trinitron. ah, probably for the best!

good luck to everyone on their home theater odysseys!

Wow, for $1000 that is atrocious. Makes me glad I didn't try it out, though I'm sure it beats the old Mainstage. Good luck with the job hunt. Economy is better now that a couple years ago, that's for sure.
Sounds like TCB got a good 2.1 option, looking forward to his review.
Keep on looking for the HD compatible display, it'll change your video life. Much bigger upgrade than audio IMHO.

grinchy,

thanks for the luck! i'll need it. i would love to buy an hd compatible display, i just don't have the budget for what i'd like to buy, especially now. plus, the reports on SED from CES 2006 are making me quite content to wait for the new technology. i thought spending $1000 on the audio would be a nice fiscal compromise, particularly because i could enjoy it for music as well.

again, i can't emphasize enough how much i liked the idea, design, engineering and performance of the niro. if i received one that was in pristine condition i probably would have kept it. it's too bad that the entire thing is made in china, made mostly of plastic and lightweight materials and evidently went through lax quality control. it doesn't help that the warranty on it is subpar either.

I hear you about changing your mind. I went from wanting plasma to crt to front projection back to crt (for now). I also shot for in-walls, then when not feasible, we researched all these devices. Took about 8 months to pick one. A world of choices, huh?

Sorry about the job loss. Thanks for the reviews and comments on all the devices you tried.

Kef KIT-100

I've had the Kef KIT-100 for a few days now and will share some of my comments. One caveat, I am not an audio guy; I'm just an enthusiast who loves electronics. The KEF KIT-100 was purchased on clearance/open box from Ultimate Electronics in Roseville, Minnesota for $396 down from an MSRP of $1500. I sprung for an additional $200 to purchase the matching KEF speaker stands.

The system is quite hefty. The speakers are heavy little buggers as is the subwoofer. The subwoofer has a cool glass panel on the front. The whole system is quite stylish in a modern, urban way.

I am using the system with my brand new Sony XBR 960N. The Sony resides upstairs from our dedicated home theatre where I have a 7.1 surround system consisting of Klipsch Reference Series 7 speakers and a Sunfire True Signature Sub powered by the Pioneer Elite 49tx.

I wanted a 2.1 system because this is not my primary viewing area. If we are going to watch a movie, it'll be in the theatre. Nevertheless, I wanted sound worthy of the beautiful picture on the Sony XBR960N (the image on that television is unbelievable. I bought it for $1199 new, not open box).

I used Star Wars III as my test DVD. The picture looked great. I noticed no issues with the quality of the DVD through the KEF. This player does not upconvert like the Denon S-301. The video is sent out component. I wanted an upconverting player and have been impressed with the Denon; however, for under $400 for the whole system, I was not going to get hung up on that point. Furthermore, I thought the Denon was too pricey, especially in light of the new HD DVD players on the horizon.

I did a quick calibration of the system in the menu. Very simple. I discovered that I had the speakers reversed and fixed the problem. Then I had to shut everything down because my daughter was trying to fall asleep. A day later, I went back to work. The sound is wonderful. Does it equal my 7.1 setup downstairs. Heck no. But I didn't expect it would. The cool thing about the Kef system is that it is really a 4.1 system. The surrounds are panels on the side that are bounced off walls. Does it work? Kinda, I guess. I'll need more time with it to be convinced one way or the other.

Bass is really perfect for my room. The center channel sound (actually, approximated by the right and left speakers) makes for very intelligible, crisp dialogue. I appreciated that there are 3 digital inputs on this little system. One for cable, one for Xbox 360 and one for??? However, only one of the inputs was SPDIF. The rest were coaxial.

One selling point the Denon had going for it was Ipod connectivity. Of course, any system is able to be used with an Ipod. Just use a mini stereo to RCA adapter.

In some respects, this review is not worth the space it is taking up on the server because I can't tell you if it performs better than the Denon, Niro, Mainstage, etc. I can only compare it with the Denon and say that it is as good as the Denon audio-wise and nearly as good video-wise.

My advice to anyone with an Ultimate Electronics in their area is to go snatch one up for $396. Once I discovered that I could get this system for that price, I was sold. I first saw the KEF system at Best Buy a week ago for $899.

LCD - sorry to hear about the job loss. I went through that 5 years ago and while something better typically comes out of it it's still no fun. Thanks for the Niro review - I was thinking about going in that direction for a while, but couldn't justify the cost.

I really think 2.1 systems are a viable and superior alternative to the one box systems. A Kef Kit-100 for less than $400 is one of the best bargains I've seen in a while.

LCD, you don't work for Oracle, do you? Anyhow, best wishes...

The Niro Pro II I recently got seem to be defective as the sound or dialogues in the center get distorted at moderate-high level. I remember not having this issue with the Ref...and gets quite annoying, at times. Although I would have preferred its warmer midrange compared to the Ref the distortion and lack of natural sound in the fronts though won't cut it for me.

So yesterday, I called customer service and asked an exchange for the Ref. I will be driving down to their warehouse on Monday to return the Pro II and get a new Ref. I hope they don't give me your returned Ref

Kidding aside, now that you've heard the Ref it will be interesting to know which one you will eventually pick.

Again, hope things go well for you.

Dave and others, think front projection. It's portable and looking better every year, especially once the PS3 and blu-ray comes out - all designed for larger images to enjoy, which only pjs can bring.

On FP, video is amazing, even in "low-def". I got a Hitachi Home-1 (WVGA) last year, and Olympic luge is looking good (OTA HD feed). The Mainstage is doing just fine as the sole audio source (plus sub, but it's off right now) for our 7 x 15 screen wall.

Oh, I definitely plan to do FP, but it probably won't be till 2007 at this point. We just had a baby girl and the disposable income isn't what it used to be. Need to bank a few bonuses before finishing the basement is a viable option. WAF limits most things in the existing living spaces (hence the binaura). I am content to wait, as my 4 month old daughter really doesn't leave me much time for tv and movies.

I am really impressed with that price on that KEF.

Cathor - - I think you made an interesting point about going with a virtual dolby receiver and some nice speakers. I think that is a viable option that some should consider.

Here is hoping that the quality improves and prices come down.

Hey Pilgrim (in psuedo-John Wayne voice),
Congrats on the baby girl!

Ultimate Electronics had an ad in the Sunday paper about the Kef clearance. It also announced 50% KEF speaker stands. Looks like I'm back to get another $100 off.

I have a Sony Hs20 and thinking of upgrading this year. The nice thing about the Niro is how well the sound projects from that 106" sized image - feels like a real theatre.

I finally got my RS db meter and REW working on my laptop using a cheap USB sound card from Fry's (too cheap, it's going back), but the numbers for the mainstage are pretty accurate, it was the sub freqs that the soundcard dropped off on.

Anyway, this is the Soundmatters Mainstage in my room. It sits on the floor and is angled at the seating area about 13 feet away. I'd say I have is on a 30 degree angle. The mic was pointed at about 45 degrees up, and this may have hurt measurements. Oh well, they're what I've got.

It isn't pretty. Lots of dropouts in the freqs. This was a 1/3rd octave sweep, and includes my sub response on the low end.

Now that I think about it, this is the response with the level set by the sub pink noise. I'll put up another one that is set correctly.

Whoa. What is RS db meter? Does it generate frequency sweep tones, and measure the response? What equipments exactly do you need? I need something like that right now.

REW = Room EQ Wizard, a freeware that does generate sweeps and measures the db response. Very cool.

RS db Meter = Radio Shack Sound SPL meter - $50 for digital version.

You also need a full duplex sound card.

The sound is generated on the line out, which is amplified etc. And then measured from the sound meter (it has an rca out) into the line in.

Lots of information on this over in the subwoofer threads.

Thanks for the info. Do you really need the digital SPL meter, or can you connect a microphone to line in? I have the analog version. ugh.

Any SPL meter (analog or digital) with output should work. A calibrated microphone would also work, though you'd need the cal table.

I simply bought the digital because they quit carrying the analog in stores. Some like one, others the other, but functionally the meters are equivalent.

Thanks. BTW what kind of sub do you have? The freq response is amazingly flat between 30 and 100Hz even if the level is set incorrectly.

Sealed dual 10" Sony wx-700. Read about ithere - currently retailing below $300 before a $100 rebate (see CC).

thanks for the well wishes everyone! my last day of work was on tuesday. off to the great unknown...

ximori, my returned ref arrived at niro on the day you went to pick yours up. if your sub is rattling, it was mine.

How is that Kenwood treating you? I've been thinking about picking up a receiver with Dolby Virtual Speaker, but they seem to be hard to find. That, or manufacturers aren't listing it as a feature. Curiously, some of Onkyo's high end receivers have DVS, but if you spent that kind of money on an AVR, why use only two speakers?

Thanks,
Mark

mark,

i just ordered a kenwood vrs-7200, a pair of orbs and a super eight sub. the 7200 seems to be exactly like the 7100 except that it has binding posts for the front speakers instead of clips and it adds s-video inputs and outputs. there was an issue with the 7100's component video output that has supposedly been fixed in the 7200. on paper, the kenwood receivers look like a fantastic idea. i think they killed themselves marketing them as "gaming" receivers. based on what i've read they use the same TI chipset as the panasonic digital receivers. the only real minus i can see (having not tested it yet) is the fact that dvd-a and sacd users are left out in the cold (the kenwoods don't have 5.1 analog inputs). not an issue for me since i own nothing in either format. i am very excited about the dolby headphone and dolby virtual speaker features. i still have the niro sound fresh in my mind, so i'm eager to do a comparison. the whole setup is a couple hundred dollars less than the niro reference package.

i'm also curious about why there are very few receivers out there with dolby virtual speaker. personally, i really hate the idea of cluttering the living room with speakers to the sides of the couch, not to mention the wire runs. anyway, the denon s-301 and 101 implement dvs, so it can't be that ineffective, right (i hope)?

it took me forever to decide between the orbs + super eight and omnisats + S8. in the end, i bought the hype on orb audio's website. from what i've read, the super eight seems to be quite a sub. i liked the idea of the omnisats, but was worried about reviews stating you'd either love them or hate them for their more laid back, diffuse nature.

i'll let you know how it goes!

Thanks for the reply. I won't be using DVD-A or SACD so that isn't an issue for me either. I also read about the Omnisat (love them or hate them), and I am a little concerned that such a diffuse sound quality won't work for my situation - I only want to use two of them. I'll check out the Orbs - they are pretty cute

Mark

so it starts anew. orb audio sent the system to me in two parts, the subwoofer through ups and the speakers, cables and wires through fedex. the subwoofer arrived on monday. the speakers were supposed to arrive on saturday. the fedex website reports that the delivery was made at 4pm. my wife and i were home all day and did not hear a knock on the door or the doorbell. not only that, but at 4:15 i was on my way out of the house and saw nothing on the front porch.

ANYway, on to my impressions of the sub. since i don't have anything to hook it up to, this is purely a appearance/build quality review. i hope i'm able to listen to it sometime soon.

the super eight is wrapped in a plastic bag and packaged in a box with styrofoam holders on the top and bottom. nothing protects the sides of the woofer from damage during shipping. in most cases, the subwoofer should not be in any danger as there is some empty space between the sides of the box and the sides of the sub. however, my box came with holes in it from who knows what. for a company that prides itself on sparing no expense, i'm a little disappointed there is no padding for the sides of the box. that said, i could detect no damage to the sides of the super eight.

the sub is made in china. for a company that plays up the fact that their speakers are handcrafted in the u.s.a. it is disappointing to me that they manufacture their sub in china. i hope someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but no company manufactures anything in china for the high quality labor. they move there for the cheap parts and for the cheap labor.

the first thing i noticed about the sub was the smell. this thing STINKS. the smell is coming from the rubber feet, which are made of some type of cheap industrial black rubber. the rubber is dense, but doesn't look like it has any kind of finish on it. the smell is strong enough to pervade my entire living room. if it doesn't fade soon i'll have to return the whole setup because of the odor. it's a gasonline/chemical-type odor. when i wipe the feet with a cloth, the cloth becomes black.

in my opinion the sub is pretty ugly. the finish seems to be of decent quality, but the textured flecks on the surface are not very attractive. i like the rounded corners. the grille on the front is not pretty. it's grey, but there is a reflective thread woven throughout the fabric that makes it look very...i'm not sure what the word i'm looking for is. the grille frame itself is made of a lightweight particleboard material that looks like it was dipped in tar and then not cleaned off very well. the grille fabric is glued to the round frame. the holes on the sub that the grille mounts onto have not been machined well. two of them are flush with the surface of the sub and blend in fairly well with the finish. the other two are raised and one seems to have been forced into place, its edges look crushed. on the top surface of the sub there is also a bump on the cabinet where it looks like a screw underneath was not screwed all the way in.

the back of the sub is different from the pictures they show on the website. the detachable power cord is gone. the sub now sports a connected cord. the various dials and switches have also been moved around a bit. apparently the price of the sub has been dropped $50 from earlier years. i wonder from what step of production the savings came from.

the dials and connectors appear to be of good quality. the sub itself is fairly heavy. it weighs close to 30 pounds, a far cry from the 11 pounds of the niro sub. the niro sub was by far more attractive. i even miss the little brass spikes.

so far, i'm not very happy. i can't understand why i'm having so many problems with more expensive audio gear. my klipsch gmx 2.1 setup is made up of cheap internals that are beginning to fail after three years of use. the fit and finish of the klipsch however, is impeccable. closed seams, no blemishes, quality material (even the plastic parts do not feel cheap) solid workmanship and appearance. of course, the most important thing about an audio setup is how it sounds, but can't there be a balance between build quality and performance?

what bothers me the most is that both niro and orb audio advertise themselves as direct to consumer companies who use no middlemen or advertising, thereby saving their resources for quality components and construction. my personal experience with each company so far has been quite subpar in terms of build quality. of course, i have yet to see the orb speakers.

i suppose the other possibility is that i'm just crazy, since it doesn't appear that anyone else has experienced these problems. or maybe normal people don't care.

i'll post a sonic review if i ever receive the speakers. if orb doesn't work out, i will give the omnisat setup a try. if THAT fails me, i'm going to buy a cheap setup up from logitech or similar company and be done with it. :P

thanks for letting me vent!

Ouch. I hope they sound better than they smell I was looking into Orb, but after reading this, I'm not so sure. Maybe a different sub is in order?

Mark

mark,

i'm not sure you should use my experiences as relevant data! this is what i don't get though, universally, the reviews for niro and orb have been stellar. no professional reviews or forum reviews mention anything resembling the problems i've had. so, i must be either crazy or incredibly unlucky. however, i just can't see how i'm being unreasonable in my evaluations of fit, finish and build quality.

a lot of the orb reviews do parrot talking points from their website. i find that to be incredibly annoying in what are supposed to be unbiased professional reviews.

the living room still smells like a factory and i'm still waiting for the orb speakers.

to be continued...

Hello everyone.
I just found this site while researching a virtual surround sound system for my family room. I have a 15x15 feet room open to the kitchen with a 9 foot ceiling. I am looking for a sound system to pair with my 50 inch samsung dlp tv. The virtual surround system concept appeals to me because I am really not into too many wires, and want to keep the room as clutter-free as possible.
I am currently looking at the mainstage hd, binaura and yamaha ysp 800. I am also not considering buying a receiver and thus the above choices. Price is also a major factor.
What would you guys recommend would be worth my money and at the same time would produce the best results?
Thanks in advance.

Post #3 list your options on the first page. With an open layout, the yamaha YSP line might not work well for you. All three of your choices are well discussed in this thread. I have a Binaura in an open layout, that I like well enough, but with full knowledge that it, and all of these "virtual" devices are compromises. Mostly aesthetics/convenience over performance (especially on the surround/stereo aspect).

If you are prepared to spend the $800 or so for the YSP-800, I'd also look at the Niro or perhaps the entry level Denon. A final option would be the kenwood vrs-7200, plus a pair of speakers+sub.

Welcome to the forum and good luck.

Keeping the price under $800.00, one could couple the Kenwood VRS-7200 or the Harmon Kardon AVR-240 (both of which feature Dolby Virtual Speaker) with a nice stereo speaker/sub setup. But what speakers to buy? Surely one can do better that the 3" drivers in most of these one (or two) box solutions.

Thoughts?

Mark