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Looking at the DMR-E10 manual... we may have a problem...  

post #1 of 43
Thread Starter 
I've been pawing thru the manual on the E10 and found something that is VERY VERY disturbing....

first, I can find NO setting for the DVD-R compatible mode, to turn off the Hybrid VBR settings... so you would think they turned it off all together right?

Well... looking at the specs... page 35...

Recording system: MPEG2 (Hybrid VBR)

the only settings under VIDEO are

Still Mode
Black Level Control

is this implying that the Hybrid VBR CANNOT BE TURNED OFF???

This is not good.

addendum..

of course this could mean that it's locked in FIXED, but also bothersome is that there is also no setting for the Y/C seperation or seamless play...
post #2 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Londo
I've been pawing thru the manual on the E10 and found something that is VERY VERY disturbing....

first, I can find NO setting for the DVD-R compatible mode, to turn off the Hybrid VBR settings... so you would think they turned it off all together right?

Well... looking at the specs... page 35...

Recording system: MPEG2 (Hybrid VBR)

the only settings under VIDEO are

Still Mode
Black Level Control

is this implying that the Hybrid VBR CANNOT BE TURNED OFF???

This is not good.

addendum..

of course this could mean that it's locked in FIXED, but also bothersome is that there is also no setting for the Y/C seperation or seamless play...
What would you have expected given you have E80s and an E55? All I know is that the RAM I recorded to on the ES10 had to be real time dubbed to DVD-R once I high speed dubbed it to the HD of an E95 [which I returned after this experience].


The compression format on my Pioneer is MPEG.

As an aside, Panasonic puts out multi-page fliers [47 pp.]. Pioneer puts out manuals [123 pp.].
post #3 of 43
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by ngohit
What would you have expected given you have E80s and an E55? All I know is that the RAM I recorded to on the ES10 had to be real time dubbed to DVD-R once I shigh speed dubbed it to the HD of an E95 [which I returned after this experience].
I would have expected the same setting (Hybrid Fixed/Automatic), same as the E80/E80/E50/R55/E95/E100/E500.. if they have locked this in 'automatic' then it could very well explain your problem.. and make discs recorded on the E10 UNEDITABLE elsewhere....
post #4 of 43
Thank you, Panasonic, for making your current technology (possibly) incompatable with previous technology. This is a great way to assure customer loyalty.

In addition to the RAM disks I recorded on the E10, I also recorded to some on a JVC DR-M10 my cousin gave me. Again, I (wrongly) assumed I could eventually move recordings to a Panasonic DVR's HD. Those could HS to the HD but as with the ES10 one, getting to DVD-R had to be real time, too.

On the JVC the video compression recording system: MPEG2 (CBR/VBR)

The JVC got the "loading bug" shortly after I started using it. After I send it in for repair, I'm giving it to my neighbors. I did find the recording quality in LP mode superior on the JVC to the E95.
post #5 of 43
Quoth Londo:

Quote:
I've been pawing thru the manual on the E10 and found something that is VERY VERY disturbing....
Even though the ES10 appears to lack hybrid VBR menu settings, I wouldn't panic until we see what is available in the HDD models (ES30V, EH50) WRT to Lossless high speed dubbing to DVD-R. While I wouldn't expect to see a DVD-R high speed dub compatibility setting in the ES10 since it lacks a HDD, if that feature is not avail on the HDD units, then its time to panic. That would be a huge step backward. However, until we get some solid info on the HDD units, we are only speculating.


Quoth ngohit:

Quote:
recording quality in LP mode superior on the JVC to the E95
That's because JVC uses a [non-standard] 480x480 resolution for LP VR mode recordings (which makes it incompatible with my PC DVD Authoring app and precludes me from making lossless dubs to DVD-R even using the PC). That would also further explain you inability to dub JVC LP recordings to a Panny HDD unit (e.g., E95) and then high speed burn DVD-R's. Incompatibility between brands (jvc <> panasonic) is not panasonic's fault, even if they DO belong to the same parent company. The Panny's (pre-ES10) use 352X480 for LP mode. Both JVC and Panasonic use VBR, but Panasonic (pre-ES10) uses the Hybrid VBR mode to trade resolution off to allow encoding to overcome macroblocking on high motion/high contrast scene changes.


Quoth ngohit:

Quote:
Thank you, Panasonic, for making your current technology (possibly) incompatable with previous technology. This is a great way to assure customer loyalty.
Once again I caution to not jump the gun and condemn Panasonic just yet until we get info on the HDD units...
post #6 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by ngohit
recording quality in LP mode superior on the JVC to the E95
Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari
That's because JVC uses a [non-standard] 480x480 resolution for LP VR mode recordings (which makes it incompatible with my PC DVD Authoring app and precludes me from making lossless dubs to DVD-R even using the PC).
Mister Ferrari,

JVC in DVD-Video mode uses Half D1 - 352x480 frame size, not resolution, and is STILL SUPERIOR to Panasonic. You can look at the attached picture.

It is time to stop to advocate for Panasonic and look at other brands.

And so called "[non-standard] 480x480 resolution for LP VR mode" is the same as "Panasonic's High Resolution LP mode" that everybody screaming about. JVC implemented this from the beginning on their first generation model.
LL
post #7 of 43
Mister Kabanero,

ngohit was talking about DVD-RAMs recorded on a JVC recorder. Since DVD-RAM can only be recorded in VR mode, the VR mode frame size/resolution (480x480) is the relavent issue here, not DVD-Video mode. But thanks for clarifying that on the JVC DVD-Video frame size does not equal DVD-VR frame size in LP mode.
post #8 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari
But thanks for clarifying that on the JVC DVD-Video frame size does not equal DVD-VR frame size in LP mode.
No problemo;)
post #9 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by Londo
...but also bothersome is that there is also no setting for the Y/C separation...
Y/C isn't needed on S-Video because luminence and chroma are already separated. It is desirable on composite video, so if it was defaulted to "on" for the composite, it would have what most people would need already without a control setting.
post #10 of 43
OK, OK Everyone calm down - I managed to get a peek at he DMR-EH50 Manual (new 100GB HDD unit) and I think many of our fears can be put to rest:

High speed dubbing is allowed from HDD to DVD-R/+R (8X) /DVD-RW (4X) (incl compatibility w/ ver 1.2 4X -RW discs!)

You can real-time dub a finalized DVD-R/-RW (Video mode)/+R to the HDD.

DVD-RW recording/dubbing is in Video mode only. No VR mode DVD-RW recording/dubbing. :(

There is a "record for high speed dub" compatibility menu setting, the standard black level settings, and a seamless play menu setting. So it appears that all is well with the forthcoming Panny HDD-based recorder. Also, since there does not appear to be any restrictions on high speed dubbing to DVD-R/+R/-RW (other than source recording locked at 4:3 aspect ratio), I believe it's highly unlikely that Panny is using 480x480 for LP mode VR recordings otherwise you would have a non-standard DVD-Video disc after the dub from an LP source.

BTW - I was also able to look at the ES30 manual (VHS/DVD combo recorder). Note that contrary to the info at many e-tailers, this unit does NOT include an 80GB HDD. It has NO HDD.

hth,
Vic
post #11 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari
I believe it's highly unlikely that Panny is using 480x480 for LP mode VR recordings otherwise you would have a non-standard DVD-Video disc after the dub from an LP source.
Totally agreed. I don't know who started this 480x480 for LP mode, but according to the following link from Panasonic's Japanese website (and scroll down to the middle of the page):

http://panasonic.jp/dvd/products/eh60_eh50/spec/06.html

It clearly stated that Panasonic's new models still only record in broadcast D1, 1/2 D1 and SIF. 3/4 or 2/3 D1 non-standard resolution was never mentioned at all.
post #12 of 43
Quote:
I don't know who started this 480x480 for LP mode
The old unsubstantiated "I think I heard it from someone" rumor throws everyone prematurely into a tizzy:

Londo said:

Quote:
addendum: I think I heard someone mention that the ES10 'enhanced' LP mode was being recorded at 480x480 (3/4 D1) if so, same thing applies.. you can move it back/forth on the RAM, you can play it.. but the older Panasonic's won't understand 480x480 on a DVD-R, so re-encoding is necessary...
in this thread.


I know this is true of the Jvc, though, as I own the MV1. So maybe that's what was clouding his memory...

Londo, got those clips analyzed yet so we can put this to bed?
post #13 of 43
v ferrari said "....but Panasonic (pre-ES10) uses the Hybrid VBR mode to trade resolution off to allow encoding to overcome macroblocking on high motion/high contrast scene changes"

Does this mean that the Panasonic DMR-ES10 has effectively got the old DMR-E50/E55 menu setting "Hybrid VBR Resolution" set permanently to "Fixed"?

I have asked this question of Panasonic UK but am still awaiting an answer!
post #14 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by guylj

Does this mean that the Panasonic DMR-ES10 has effectively got the old DMR-E50/E55 menu setting "Hybrid VBR Resolution" set permanently to "Fixed"?
It could also mean that it is permanently set to Automatic because Panasonic believe their new-generation encoder has overcome this situation. Unfortunately, that decision may still wreak havoc for those who use PC-based authoring programs that identify the content as having multiple resolutions.
post #15 of 43
Yes that is exactly my situation. I have Panasonic LF-D521 & LF-M621 DVD Multidrives and they came with Panasonic's DVD Movie Album SE3. That program will detect resolution changes and re-encode to a constant resolution - it's slow even on a fast P4 with lots of RAM. I also found it to be buggy although to be fair Panasonic posted some patches on their Japanese site - however by then I had set Hybrid VBR Resolution to Fixed on my E50 so didn't need that particular program.

I was looking at the ES10 in my local dealer's shop and liked it very much but fortunately I thought to check through the menus first before committing when I noticed the absence of Hybrid VBR Resolution. The dealer telephoned Panasonic UK support and they didn't know but have promised to find out. I have also raised an email support request with them and they do normally provide a high quality response to these requests so we shall see.

Of course there may be some subtle differences between countries. I looked at the pdf for the ES10 on Panasonic's Canadian website and it is not the same as the UK even allowing for NTSC/PAL differences. On the ES10 I saw in the shop there was only one item on the Setup/Picture Menu which was Comb Filter. We looked at the same menu on the E55 and there was Comb Filter, Hybrid VBR Resolution, and I think a couple of others. On the E50 Comb Filter is called Rec Resolution (Fine/Normal) I think.

I shall be really disappointed if Hybrid VBR Resolution is not fixed or fixable. With a simple program like TMPG_Enc_DVD_Author you can go from DVD-RAM to DVD-R Video in no time at all. Or if you really want to go to town on editing and adding effects you can do that to. It will certainly be a big step backwards. Even so if enough people complain they might fix it. It's only software after all !
post #16 of 43
I'm not up to speed on the ES10, but if it authors to -RW in Video mode instead of VR mode as has been stated, then by simply using THAT media type, I wouldn't think there would be any concerns of it jumping to a different resolution mid-stream because it can't and still be compatible with Video mode. In other words, that would be your assurance of hybrid VBR resolution = "fixed."
post #17 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by guylj
I shall be really disappointed if Hybrid VBR Resolution is not fixed or fixable.
Here's my take on this issue. The original reason to make an option on resolution fixed or automatic is to compensate for low-bit, complex video compression by lowering resolution., and the price paid is an incompatible file format on many occasions. If Panasonic is now able to stretch 4-hour of broadcast D1 resolution with its new VBR encoding, there is really no point to even maintain an automatic option on hybrid resolution. Also note that the default on the "Hybrid VBR Resolution" already changed to "Fixed" on their previous DMR-E55/E85 generation. So I would rather believe it is set permanently at fixed in the new models. Why would Panasonic make somthing incompatible as a default setting and no way of changing it?
post #18 of 43
From JeffWld:

Quote:
It could also mean that it is permanently set to Automatic because Panasonic believe their new-generation encoder has overcome this situation. Unfortunately, that decision may still wreak havoc for those who use PC-based authoring programs that identify the content as having multiple resolutions.
From gulj:
Quote:
I shall be really disappointed if Hybrid VBR Resolution is not fixed or fixable.
Can't be automatic because this mode would not support high speed dubbing from HDD (VR mode) to DVD-R/+R/-RW (Video mode) as is featured in the EH50 and verified by my review of the manual. So it must be fixed (i.e., Panasonic eliminated the Hybrid VBR feature as speculated by Tom Roper).
post #19 of 43
I'm very hopeful that you're right. On the E50 the default for "Hybrid VBR Resolution" was "Automatic". On the E55 it was "Fixed." So logically on the ES10 if it is no longer an option it should be Fixed. Also as stated if DVD-RW recording is to DVD Video standards that should preclude variable resolution - however I do prefer DVD-RAM and for critical recordings I always use media in a cartridge.

It's frustrating as I was all set to buy the ES10 and now I'm in limbo. At least if the ES10 is not what I want I suppose there will be some good deals on E55s.
post #20 of 43
If you want to be able to create recordings that can be edited and subsequently high speed dubbed to DVD-R/+R/-RW, I would hold off on the ES10 and opt for the HDD-based EH50.

What will be interesting to see is if HIGH SPEED dub compatible recordings orginating from legacy high speed dub supporting HDD recorders (e.g., E80, 85, 95, and 100) can be transferred via RAM to an EH50, uploaded to the HDD and then HS dubbed to DVD. Why? Because then you can high speed dub a legacy E80 etc. recording to DVD+R or DVD-RW!!!!
post #21 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari
.... Why? Because then you can high speed dub a legacy E80 etc. recording to DVD+R or DVD-RW!!!!
And do it 4x, right?
post #22 of 43
Actually, 8x for DVD+/-R and 4x for DVD-RW as stated in my post above....
post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by vferrari

Can't be automatic because this mode would not support high speed dubbing from HDD (VR mode) to DVD-R/+R/-RW (Video mode) as is featured in the EH50 and verified by my review of the manual. So it must be fixed (i.e., Panasonic eliminated the Hybrid VBR feature as speculated by Tom Roper).
I must be missing something here. I agree that it has to be "fixed" on the EH50 as you stated for HS dubbing, but this thread has been speculating on the ES10. Why the conclusion that "Automatic" is not Panasonic's unchangeable default for this model?
post #24 of 43
I like the phrase "legacy E-80"- ain't that a classic? :). Also the term "fixed" for that Panny mode- Now that also is a classic.
post #25 of 43
You are a legacy classic.
post #26 of 43
I can see that that will be of great interest to many people. Just from my personal point of view I would prefer to stay with an optical only unit. It's one less thing to go wrong after the unit is out of warranty. My main PC has several HDDs and changing them out is simple but I suspect it is not quite as easy in a DVD Recorder. I have 2 identical Digital Terrestrial TV receivers so with an ES10 in addition to my E50 I would be able to record two programs at once (rare I know and you have to find the time to watch them!) but more importantly some of our UK Freeview channels will show a film interspersed with adverts and 30 minutes of national and local news bulletins, weather forecasts etc. To record a 2 hour movie unattended you need to set FR mode to cover up to 3 hours or even more yet after editing (on PC) you are back to 2 hours of program but well below SP quality. However with two recorders I could record half the program on each in SP mode. If my calculations go wrong and I land up with too much data I can always do a transcode to get back down to a single layer DVD-R's capacity - in practice (when I have done this on my E50 with an attended change of DVD-RAM media during a suitable break) that doesn't happen.

A friend of mine has an E85 and we experimented with recording to HDD and then splitting the program into two and copying each portion to a separate DVD-RAM. But it was unreliable - sometimes the E85 refused to divide, sometimes it locked and needed a reboot, and when it did divide OK you could lose a little chunk of program - admittedly not a problem in the middle of an ad break.

If you intend to always go the PC route for editing then recording straight to DVD-RAM is the quickest and easiest method and lack of a HDD in the recorder isn't a problem. At present I only have DVD-RAM/DVD-R/RW burning capability on PC but it would be quite inexpensive to add +R/RW for example if the need arose. If dual layer DVD +- R media becomes reasonably priced then I might be looking at recording 2 hour programs on 2 DVD-RAMs in XP mode and burning to dual layer.

I do recognise that I might be in a minority here!
post #27 of 43
Quote:
Originally posted by guylj
To record a 2 hour movie unattended you need to set FR mode to cover up to 3 hours or even more yet after editing (on PC) you are back to 2 hours of program but well below SP quality. However with two recorders I could record half the program on each in SP mode. If my calculations go wrong and I land up with too much data I can always do a transcode to get back down to a single layer DVD-R's capacity - in practice (when I have done this on my E50 with an attended change of DVD-RAM media during a suitable break) that doesn't happen.
Now, this is a good reason (among others) to buy a HDD/DVDR combo. You would then record to HDD at SP quality for 3 hours, edit to 2 hrs, and then high speed copy to DVD-R (or to DVD-RAM to take to your PC), filling it all, without all that issues you describe. Plain and simple.



HTH
post #28 of 43
You are right in theory. I did try directly editing on my E50 and didn't like it. It was all too easy to make a slip and erase the wanted rather than the unwanted parts of a program. There is no "Undelete" function. Maybe you can do it all with playlists but I didn't get too far with that. From what I saw of the E85 HDD editing it wasn't too much different to the E50 but admittedly we couldn't spend a lot of time on it.

On the PC most programs do non destructive editing so you can't lose your original DVD-RAM - anyway if it's in a cartridge you can set the physical write inhibit switch. For performance reasons you probably want to copy the whole .VRO file from DVD-RAM to HDD as a precursor to editing so you are working on a copy anyway. But the programs edit by setting markers (in a seperate file) pointing in to the VRO file and when you finish the program reads down the VRO file copying over to another file(s) but using the marker file information to skip the edited out portions. If your input and output files are on different physical HDDs then this can be a very quick process indeed.

Although some programs on the PC only allow editing to the nearest GOP (Group of Pictures) boundary this is still a lot easier to use than I found the editing on the E50. Other programs will allow you to edit to any frame doing a localised reencoding to create a new GOP structure around the edit point. This allows for very fine chopping out of adverts etc.

As I said I realise I am probably in a minority here but the way of working I have evolved over the last couple of years happens to suit me and I hoped that the DMR-ES10 would be compatible with it. And perhaps it is. I haven't back from Panasonic yet so I have sent them a chaser email.
post #29 of 43
post #30 of 43
Received a response from Panasonic UK Support to my chase-up email :-

".......Thank you for your email enquiry.

In response, unfortunately we do not have any record of your previous email in our department, although it may have been routed to a different server ......"

Strange as both the original and chase ups issued me with a ticket number. Anyway I have now been able to put the query about Hybrid VBR Resolution on the DMR-ES10 in detail to a real person and I took the opportunity to ask them to escalate the priority.

Within five minutes I received back an email containing :-

"Thank you for clarifying your query. I have forwarded this to our technical support team, and will send you an answer as soon as possible."

So I am hopeful that I will get a definitive answer soon.
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