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THE SONY SERVICE CODES - Articles, Comments, Discoveries - Page 9

post #241 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC
IMO, reviewing the factory defaults, it appears that their intent is to calibrate using 480i because the TV must decompress/split/process the signal to extract color from luminance, therefore all 480i RGB signals to the tube should be the same.
A really good point. My method assumes *no* input is perfect. But if Sony have guaranteed that the derivation of color from the combined "C" signal is near-perfect (quite possible), then calibrating from that input as your first choice would work well.
Quote:
When you input component/DVI/HDMI, the TV has no control over the input signal therefore the need for different offset settings to balance the color temp.
Yes, maybe. I'm still not sure I understand all the implications of the published block diagram from the service manual, which tries to show all of the signal paths. Those who think this is a mostly-digital set will be disappointed! It appears like the ATSC tuner, memory-stick, and HDMI inputs are immediately converted to analog-component video. All of their signal paths are identified as "YCbCr." Inputs 1, 2, and 3 ("YC") are routed to the "Main Color Decoder, CXA2103." Then they exit as YCbCr -- aka component video. Then that is converted to digital at IC3003 and passed to the DRC processor and on to the MID processor.

The CXA2171 chip switches among V5/V6 component inputs, HDMI, and ATSC, a different path from the CXA2103 chip, above. Then that is converted to digital at IC8601 and passed to the main MID processor as "VDO digital," bypassing DRC.

I made the initial choice that I couldn't necessarily understand all of the implications of this diagram, and I have found it useful to model the behavior of the TV in my head, refining it as I learn more. That's what engineers do on the way to designing something, so it is also a helpful skill when trying to understand a complex system that already exists.

The referenced block diagram is attached.

 

XS955|XBR960 Block Diagram.pdf 139.0234375k . file
post #242 of 2959
You can have the block diagrams. YCrCb is a different signal from YPrPb and I am not sure of the difference. I believe (not sure) the YCrCb is 480i component, while YPrPb is HD/Progressive component. DVI/HDMI can carry either RGB(HV) or YPrPb.

There are standards for component signals, however how accurate is the signal from a $69 Progressive DVD player and a $2000 Progressive DVD player. Not sure how close to the standard either will be, but I would think the more expensive unit would have better tolerances in it's signal path.
post #243 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

You can have the block diagrams. YCrCb is a different signal from YPrPb and I am not sure of the difference. I believe (not sure) the YCrCb is 480i component, while YPrPb is HD/Progressive component. DVI/HDMI can carry either RGB(HV) or YPrPb.

Here is a good explanation. See "Component Video Description and History" about 1/3 of the way down. I shoulda read this before . . .

http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/compon.htm

The article says that YCbCr is the digital equivalent of YPbPr. But the block diagram clearly shows *analog* component inputs V5/V6 feeding YCbCr to the next block. Phooey! Another error in the Sony documentation. Either they are using both terms randomly, to mean the same thing, or they have them turned around.
post #244 of 2959
OK, I think I have it, YCrCb, is a much more compressible version of RGB and is the format of the MPEG coding on DVDs. RGB, an uncompressed video signal carrying the three separate color info and very high bandwidth, best color signal. In a DVD player, YCrCb is sent through a D/A converter and is sent out as YPrPb, S-Video or composite. The TV takes any of these signals, puts it through an A/D converter to convert it to YCrCb and processes accordingly. Like sending 480i through a doubler or changing scan rate (720p to 1080i). Once the TV has finished all of it's needed processing the signal goes through a D/A converter to change the signal to RGB(HV) so it can be sent to the tube.
post #245 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

The TV takes any of these signals, puts it through an A/D converter to convert it to YCrCb and processes accordingly. Like sending 480i through a doubler or changing scan rate (720p to 1080i). Once the TV has finished all of it's needed processing the signal goes through a D/A converter to change the signal to RGB(HV) so it can be sent to the tube.

Yesterday I spent about an hour with the schematic diagrams of the set, and it doea, indeed, look like that is what is happening. The block diagram has numerous errors. (The component-input signals are correctly labeled YPrPb on the schematic, and YCrCb doesn't appear until after the A/D converter. Then things get fairly compex with labels and symbols I couldn't identify, so I gave up.)

It's important to know that there are two main video pathways, one with DRC and a separate one that bypasses it. Well, important for techies, anyway.
post #246 of 2959
480p and 1080i could possibly bypass the DRC since they don't require conversion to another scanrate for display. They're probably still converted to digital for processing by the MID circuits though.
Quote:


The TV takes any of these signals, puts it through an A/D converter to convert it to YCrCb and processes accordingly. Like sending 480i through a doubler or changing scan rate (720p to 1080i). Once the TV has finished all of it’s needed processing the signal goes through a D/A converter to change the signal to RGB(HV) so it can be sent to the tube.

FWIW, this is the way it seemed to work on the XBR800's as well, for DVI anyway. DVI appeared to be initially converted to an analog signal and then seemed to follow pretty much the same paths as the Component signals. There was a way of rerouting 33.75khz-540p/1080i signals (from both the component and DVI inputs) past later digital processing prior to reaching the tube on some TVs though. And this rerouting of 1080i fixed the "scrolling bar" problem on various TVs, and also eliminated interlacing on 540p signals (which is what I use via DVI on my own 34XBR800). (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=293741)

I think Sony improved signal integrity on models after the XBR800s though, to better accomodate the SFP tubes. So I'd be less concerned about PQ-loss due to internal processing on the XBR960s.
post #247 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I think there is something to be said for getting as close to ~6500k as possible for the best shadow detail.

I don't think you meant this. The former is white balance, the second is grayscale calibration independent of white balance. You could, for example, have a perfectly linear grayscale calibrated for 5400K.
Quote:


I can see legitimate arguments on both sides of the color question. I think all Glen is really saying here is that the way the Sonys are configured out of the box, it may be easier to initially ballpark the grey scales for all inputs by performing the grey scale calibration with the Color on as opposed to off. Since he's calibrated more TV's than I have, I'm prepared to accept that on his word for the moment. And it's probably something that informed DIYers can try and judge for themselves.

I think you have stated the issue pretty well. Glen also has a variety of TVs to deal with, and, accepting the inherent asumption in his method, it will succeed.
Quote:


Your approach may work equally as well though Ken, if you're already resigned to adjusting the CBOF and CROF offsets for every input you're using.

This is where our methods converge. We *both* have to calibrate CBOF and CROF for the inputs we want calibrated, by whatever means.
Quote:


however if you're suggesting that you can tweak the grey scales via UCOF and UHOF, then I disagree.

No, not grayscale color-neutrality. Just black level (which I included with the term "offsets") with UBOF, and then color (amount) and hue differences between video source devices with UCOF and UHOF.
Quote:


IMO, those particular 2170P-3 parameters should generally only be used to adjust differences between the color decoders on each input/signal.

Or let's just say the color and black level on each input signal, because there is nowhere else to compensate for, say, a permanently-connected VCR with a noticeable hue error, as I own, or for a DVD player whose black level doesn't agree with anything else (mine, too). I would use those settings as compensation so I don't have to fiddle with the remote each time I switch from broadcast to a VCR recording of the same thing. That said, you can make the choice to have UBOF-UHOF set just for imbalances inherent to the TV, and leave further tweaking to the user menu. What else could you do if you were going to switch video sources around every now and then? But in my case, there is no way for me to separate the TV from the DVD input in practice, so I adjust for my DVD player as-connected. When I switch to it, it's right.
post #248 of 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenTech View Post

I don't think you meant this. The former is white balance, the second is grayscale calibration independent of white balance. You could, for example, have a perfectly linear grayscale calibrated for 5400K.

I don't think you meant this either. White balance and gray-scale are one-in-the-same. It doesn't matter what temperature you are using. If you choose 6500K, 5400K, 9300K or whatever you want for white, the goal is a uniform gray-scale at that temperature. With CRT, we are fortunate that cuts and drives are available to adjust both ends of the scale for a uniform gray-scale. With LCD and DLP, you only have R, G & B drive, calibrate at 50 IRE and hope fore the best uniformity and tweak for the best overall results.

Yes, I believe we are in agreement on the color calibration process. My method was designed for the display having any number of inputs in use or multiple scan-rates in use on one input. Some have all of their equipment connected through one input via an A/V receiver. Some HD STB (cable/DSS) can have numerous output configurations:
  • All 480i/p
  • All 720p
  • All 1080i
  • Native 480i/p, 720p & 1080i
  • Native 480i/p, 720p
  • Native 480i/p, 1080i
These configurations generate a need for multiple input/scan-rate calibrations.
post #249 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC View Post

White balance and gray-scale are one-in-the-same. It doesn't matter what temperature you are using. If you choose 6500K, 5400K, 9300K or whatever you want for white, the goal is a uniform gray-scale at that temperature.

"White balance" on my digital still and video cameras means *color-temperature* adjustment, and that's how I used the term. It also has the same meaning in Photoshop and its Camera Raw plug, where you use the White Balance slider to "balance" your image to match the color temperature of the picture as shot.

But let me use your terms: Color-temp (white) setting and grayscale linearity (uniformity) are independent, as you have said in your last sentence above. You can set any CT for any grayscale and adjust grayscale uniformity for any CT. That means the parameters of white balance and grayscale uniformity are independent concepts in principle. We agree; this is semantics! (Of course, the *adjustments* we're stuck with for setting WB and grayscale interact -- but that's just an implementation, not a principle.)

ADU's thinking that he has to have 6500K before he has adequate shadow detail confuses the two concepts of the *color* of the white point and the *level* of the darkest grays. To be sure, I am including the black level at the bottom of the gray scale as part of its setup, and that is the one item that determines adequate shadow detail. So maybe the difficulty is there. Again, the terminology . . .
post #250 of 2959
Hey guys....this tread has been very helpful, but I have a little problem. I usually try and search on here before I go ahead and post an issue that has been covered already. My 32hs510 set is looking great thanks to this thread, except for one issue...When I switch to my RF input which has an old jerrold cable box connected to it, I get a good picture for about 3 seconds and then i see this auto focusing and it then get a lil blurred..very noticeable. I've look hard and long for a setting in the service menu for this, but no luck...does anyone know what the setting or problem coul be? Only happens with RF, and I've tried switching to all DRC modes.
post #251 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by absolute1973 View Post

When I switch to my RF input which has an old jerrold cable box connected to it, I get a good picture for about 3 seconds and then i see this auto focusing and it then get a lil blurred..very noticeable. I've look hard and long for a setting in the service menu for this, but no luck...does anyone know what the setting or problem coul be? Only happens with RF, and I've tried switching to all DRC modes.

I have no experience with any kind of problem like this. I guess I need to know more by what you mean by "blurred." Does it look like diagonal lines get very jaggy? Like the number of vertical lines is cut in half? (Horizontal detail stays about the same.) Or is horizontal detail affected, too? A soft & mushy blur, like a camera blur? Are the TV's scan lines getting blurred at all, or just the image?

The "character" of this blur might indicate the cause. Or digital before-and-after photos.

Question: What is the purpose of this Jerrold box? Can't you feed the cable directly? Or is this a digital-cable converter? (You said "old," so I wasn't thinking digital-caable.)
post #252 of 2959
I should have prefaced my comment on White Balance and Gray-scale with as it pertains to video display calibration color temp. My goal, when setting White Balance/Gray-scale is to achieve, as close as possible, the same color temperature at low IRE and High IRE levels. The luminance levels of the different steps form 0 IRE to 100 IRE, can be affected by many things. Brightness can severely affect the low IRE Gray scale luminance. If set too low you can effectively have 0-30 IRE the lumen level, black. With contrast, clipping can occur. I have seen TVs that will clip clear down to 60 IRE (60-100 IRE looks the same, white). Additionally, with Picture/Contrast, you can have some color shift. Some CRTs when driven too hard can look slightly yellow.

Yes, there are many different meanings to terms used here, and I am assuming we are talking about calibration a video display to watch movies. When it comes to calibrating a TV, I think of Color Temperature, White Balance, Gray-scale or Gray-scale tracking all the same thing. Getting this properly set includes properly setting Contrast, Brightness, Color, Tint, Sharpness and the RGB settings necessary (including offsets) to achieve the desired temperature (currently the industry standard is 6500K). Additionally, the gamma curve should to be reviewed to check for adjustments needed to optimize the Gamma. Even if the Gamma can't be set to the desired setting, there shouldn't be any sudden changes in the curve.
post #253 of 2959
This is a great thread and I'm learning quite a bit but, technically speaking, I got lost about 4 pages back. I have one (hopefully) simple problem that I would like to correct. Blacks in my 960 have a green tint. Glenn, Ken and ADU, you guys definitely know what you are talking about and I would really appreciate it if you could tell me which SM adjustments need to be changed to get rid of the green tint. I'm familiar with the SM as I was able to correct many of my initial geometry problems using the knowledge gained in this thread. My wife never noticed the geometry issues but she really sees the green tint in the blacks. If I know which registers to adjust, I can "play" with the numbers to suit my visual taste but I am really confused about the effects of BCUT,RCUT, GCUT, etc. I don't want to make things worse so any help would really be appreciated.

Thanks!!
post #254 of 2959
Hi All-

Following the great guidance in this thread, I have made some initially refinements in service mode in my HS420 - so far, so good.

A few problems and a few questions came up:

1) While I was working, I inadvertently hit a couple of the nono keys - each time, I immediately cycled the power off and started over, and I think nothing bad happened. A couple times it happened while trying to write a change - after hitting Mute, I inadvertently hit the 9 key instead of the Enter (adjacent). Am I safe in assuming this single key press would do no damage? Nothing apparent happened?

Similarly, at one point, when trying to change a code, I missed the 4 key and either hit the 7 or the Jump button on my remote. This time, the text "INI -" flashed in the upper right. Again, I turned off power immediately, and nothing seemed to have been messed up - but I was a bit worried about the meaning of that text.

One other problem - at various times, while working in SM with input from the HD DVR/cable box (comcast), the image would change to show a vertically split screen with two copies of the image side by side - sort of a badly synched split screen. At first, I got very concerned about this, because powering the tv off didn't fix it, but then I found that powering off the cable box seemed to restore normal cable input. But it seemed very strange - any insight into this? Seems to imply that the SM activity somehow was communicated to the cable box in that it altered what was happening there - is that right?

2) My question - I successfully tweaked things like black levels - both SBRT and some of the input specific offsets, as well as Gamma and VM, and started trying to work on color temp. However, I didn't see any codes for setting contrast/white level. Should contrast be set only in user slides for each picture mode, or are there also service codes for this that I somehow missed?

Also - can you guys point me to any source that would be helpful in figuring out which targets in the AVIA disk to use for various kinds of adjustments and how to do so? Some are obvious, but others much less so.

Thanks again!
Michael
post #255 of 2959
For contrast i'd just use the user menu, it's more than adequete.

I'd leave color temp alone since you can't do this by eye, you need the appropriate equipment to measure it correctly.I think it's called a color analyzer and ISF guys usually carry these.
post #256 of 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

1) While I was working, I inadvertently hit a couple of the nono keys - each time, I immediately cycled the power off and started over, and I think nothing bad happened. A couple times it happened while trying to write a change - after hitting Mute, I inadvertently hit the 9 key instead of the Enter (adjacent). Am I safe in assuming this single key press would do no damage? Nothing apparent happened?

Similarly, at one point, when trying to change a code, I missed the 4 key and either hit the 7 or the Jump button on my remote. This time, the text "INI -" flashed in the upper right. Again, I turned off power immediately, and nothing seemed to have been messed up - but I was a bit worried about the meaning of that text.

One other problem - at various times, while working in SM with input from the HD DVR/cable box (comcast), the image would change to show a vertically split screen with two copies of the image side by side - sort of a badly synched split screen. At first, I got very concerned about this, because powering the tv off didn't fix it, but then I found that powering off the cable box seemed to restore normal cable input. But it seemed very strange - any insight into this? Seems to imply that the SM activity somehow was communicated to the cable box in that it altered what was happening there - is that right?

Michael

I can comment on a couple of your questions:

1) Do NOT, and I mean NOT push the 7 or 9 or jump or any combination. I did and I lost all settings including geometry and convergence. It takes weeks of tweaking to get that back. Other advice in SM: Do not change or save without writing down the original settings. Default settings - Do not move between menues without saving, you will loose changes, and do not change input i.e. from 1080i to 480i without saving.

The problem you have with double image is from your cablebox. It also happens when you switch between inputs with different format. Just move up a channel and back again and the input is back to normal.
post #257 of 2959
Hi again - so given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up? When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?

I watched some programs from cable after, and things seemed pretty normal - but I have this fear that something bad happened that I just haven't noticed yet.

From what you described, I assume it would be pretty clear if I had lost geometry or convergence settings, yes?

Also - do you know what that INI - message was?

Thanks,
Michael
post #258 of 2959
Hi - To follow up on my earlier question more clearly, I think what I'm wondering about is whether there is a service mode setting for contrast/white level that is analogous the UBOF settings - that is, can you tweak contrast differently for different inputs? For instance, as Kentech has previously noted, some of the HD broadcast (like LOST) is very dark, and seems to consistently need a higher setting. Is there an alternative to changining the contrast setting in the user menu each time you change inputs?

Thanks,
Michael
post #259 of 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

Hi again - so given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up? When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?

4-1.5. RESETTING THE DATA
CAUTION: Be careful when using the remote! It will clear and reinitialize
ALL NVM data including defl ection adjustment data if not
reset properly as follows:

4-1.6. RESETTING THE MID NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
2. Press 7 then JUMP , and then press ENTER on the remote.

4-1.7. RESETTING THE SYSTEM NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
(This resets DEFL adjust and video white balance.)
2. Press 7 then 9 , and then press ENTER on the remote.

This it what the Service Manual says - and yes if you lost all your settings it starts up in the default screen asking you to select your language, tilt and vertival correction. And the image is bent inwards from all corners.

Remember the default settings you might read from the service manual or from one of the spreadsheets in this forum, are NOT your defaults. All sets are color and geometry calibrated before leaving the factory. So you have to write down your actual settings before starting.
post #260 of 2959
Hi -

Sorry for the rash of questions to this thread - been re-reading previous posts, and new questions come to my head.

I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference between correcting color push vs setting color temp/white balance. I understand (I think) that red push means increasing the "drive" to the red gun and we want to get rid of that to get more even color balance - but doesn't this also interact with the color temp settings? Drive and Cut?

Are these two calibrations affecting totally independent aspects of how the image is produced? Or alternatively, if I change the color temp via the approach outlined early in the thread, wouldn't that alter "push"? Or more importantly, wouldn't correcting push alter color temp?

There's a certain irony in my posting these questions, as my very first job out of college as an EE many moons ago was working for Eastman Kodak, where I did a bit of work on circuits related to control of CRTs in photofinishing equipment. So theoretically, I ought to understand this very well ! Alas, that part of my brain is more or less inaccessible these days....

Thanks!
Michael
post #261 of 2959
I'm now about 3+ weeks into the KD-36XS955 world, and I'm loving it.

Used the user settings to adjust get the set closer to ideal than it was out of the box (using AVIA and the HDNet test pattern). One thing that's still off is overscan. Here's my question:

The picture now is evenly spread across the screen, and up and down. But by adjusting overscan, I will alter the proportions, right?

In other words, since I have more vertical overscan than horizontal, I'm going to end up with the people all squashed and funny looking. Or am I missing something here?

Any help in understanding this is appreciated...
post #262 of 2959
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptchristensen View Post

4-1.5. RESETTING THE DATA
CAUTION: Be careful when using the remote! It will clear and reinitialize
ALL NVM data including defl ection adjustment data if not
reset properly as follows:

4-1.6. RESETTING THE MID NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
2. Press 7 then JUMP , and then press ENTER on the remote.

4-1.7. RESETTING THE SYSTEM NVM DATA
1. Enter into Service Mode.
(This resets DEFL adjust and video white balance.)
2. Press 7 then 9 , and then press ENTER on the remote.

This it what the Service Manual says - and yes if you lost all your settings it starts up in the default screen asking you to select your language, tilt and vertival correction. And the image is bent inwards from all corners.

Remember the default settings you might read from the service manual or from one of the spreadsheets in this forum, are NOT your defaults. All sets are color and geometry calibrated before leaving the factory. So you have to write down your actual settings before starting.

Whoa there!! I wouldn't advise using the reset functions in the SM, particularly without guidance from Sony. If you use these, you may have ALOT of work to do to reconstruct your settings and get a decent picture back (which I think is ptchristensen's point above).

AFAIK, these procedures DO NOT restore the SM to the way it was when you bought it. They will actually ERASE important factory adjustments in TV that will be a bitch to reapply yourself!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
post #263 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

I'm having some difficulty understanding the difference between correcting color push vs setting color temp/white balance. I understand (I think) that red push means increasing the "drive" to the red gun and we want to get rid of that to get more even color balance - but doesn't this also interact with the color temp settings? Drive and Cut?

These concepts are easy to confuse. No, red "push" is not related to white balance at all. (You likely already understand the first part of the explanation, but I'll state it anyway for others' benefit.)

Setting a perfect white balance and grayscale can be accomplished in the *absence* of any color at all. Just as with TVs of 20-40 years ago, the xCUT controls determine when the screen starts to glow as the video-signal voltage increases from its minimum, on its way from black to white. Ideally, all of the color guns start to glow at the same time, and you get neutral dark gray. But this isn't how CRTs generally behave, and it is tuned by using different settings of R-, G-, and BCUT.

As the video signal reaches the value for "white," ideally all three color guns contribute the right amounts to produce a pure white, which is defined in the video-production world as 6500K -- roughly the color of front-lighted white clouds at mid-day. Whereas the xCUT controls determine at what point the color guns *begin* illuminating the screen, the xDRV controls determine how much "drive" each gun gets as the video goes from "black" to white. You would adjust R-, G-, and BDRV to get that perfect white, using a known white pattern or a high-contrast TV picture with color turned all the way down.

The xCUT and xDRV adjustments interact. (To an engineer they are classic offset-and-gain adjustments.) A 5-point change in RCUT makes a big change in color of dark gray, but very little change in the color of white because those 5 points are now only a small percentage of the total white. Likewise, the xDRV controls slightly affect the color of dark gray. Obviously one goes back and forth between the two control groups until everything looks fine. And generally, if you get the darkest grays and white right, the grays in the middle are fine, too.

Now that you have a perfectly-calibrated grayscale and white point, we introduce color. But here's where "push" comes in: It is the *favoring* of certain colors by the process that extracts the color from the TV signal, whatever it is. Imagine a picture of three kids with red, blue, and green tee-shirts of equal intensity in the real world, standing on a gray concrete driveway. Some TVs will show the red shirt as much more intense than the others, as with all other reds in the picture. (White and grays, by the way, and that driveway are still perfectly neutral.) This is "red push" -- a *favoring* of red in the color-decoding process. Whatever the historical arguments for this regarding NTSC broadcast deficiencies, color push is now considered a no-no, and *accurate* color decoding is preferred. (Matches reality, no?)

Sony's late-model computer-driven TVs have exquisite controls for all of this in their service-mode codes: Grayscale and white can be finely tuned (basic controls: xCUT and xDRV), and color-push can be reduced to virtually zero with 2170P-4/RYR thru GYB plus a good test pattern from, say, the DVE DVD. Plus, the TV will store two different sets of values for RYR-GYB, for the "Default" and "Monitor" user-menu choices.

Quote:


Are these two calibrations affecting totally independent aspects of how the image is produced?

Different aspects of how the video is processed by the TV and then displayed, yes.
Quote:


Or alternatively, if I change the color temp via the approach outlined early in the thread, wouldn't that alter "push"? Or more importantly, wouldn't correcting push alter color temp?

Nope, they're independent.
Quote:


. . . working for Eastman Kodak, where I did a bit of work on circuits related to control of CRTs in photofinishing equipment. So theoretically, I ought to understand this very well.

If you think of TV color-push as analogous to a specific color film's "personality," you may come close. When you worked with color CRTs for photofinishing, color push would have been an unacceptable defect, I would think, as it is with the color-prepress monitors I have set up. The "push" is created by the TV for an "esthetic" purpose.

Unfortunately, TV manufacturers keep throwing these color "improvements" at us, and we have to keep getting rid of them. Lucky it is that, with these Sony sets, it's a relative breeze. With some older sets, there is no way to alter the color decoding.

My experience, and that of several other posters here, has been that the following settings generally kill all color push for the XBR960 and recent XS955 CRT TVs:

2170P-4 / RYR-RYB-GYR-GYB = 13-15-5-3. (Then WRITE the settings.)

But grayscale and color depend heavily on your particular CRT and its characteristics.
post #264 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

some of the HD broadcast (like LOST) is very dark, and seems to consistently need a higher setting. Is there an alternative to changining the contrast setting in the user menu each time you change inputs?

When I watch Lost, CSI/Miami, or any other dark HD program, my choice has been to invoke a lower *gamma* that raises the midtone brightness while leaving black and white alone. White is still dazzling, but the blacks now have increased detail, and the mid-tones appear more natural/realistic.

There is no instant built-in control for this in the user menu. On my TV, I have set up the Pro and Movie modes to be *exactly* the same. (See my articles #04 and 05, posts #5 and 6, in this thread.) Except that (1) I have set GAMM = 1 in Movie mode and (2) set GAMR, GAMG, and GAMB each to 3 and GAMS to 0. Now when I switch from Pro (GAMM = 0 with all GAMx at 0) to Movie mode, the gamma is reduced from about 2.45 to 2.2, and that seems much more pleasing for a lot of HD material. But if the picture seems a bit flat for some broadcasts, I make sure it's in Pro mode with its higher gamma. Point is: Now it's *my* choice!
post #265 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinCityTVHound View Post

by adjusting overscan, I will alter the proportions, right? In other words, since I have more vertical overscan than horizontal, I'm going to end up with the people all squashed and funny looking. Or am I missing something here?

No, you aren't. You can mess up proportions by adjusting either vertical or horizontal overscan independently. If you use a test pattern, however, that has circular patterns in it, there's little chance of that: You'll see it immediately in the circle. You can even measure the circle to make sure you're close.

I knew something was funny with my set out of the box when the round PBS logo started looking squat in HD. Easy to fix. Just keep the circles circular, and adjust for minimum overscan that hides the defects at the raster's edges. I've ended up at about 4% for 4:3 full-screen material.

Then you want to adjust those blanking "shutters" that are supposed keep the electron beam from striking the sides of the tube: 2170D-3/R-, L-, T-, and BBLK. Procedure: reduce shutters so you can see the true, messy edge of the raster, and adjust the overscan for a clean display, as above. Then increase the shutters so you can just see them, then retract them a bit so they're not visible.
post #266 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasperm View Post

given that I *did* inadvertently hit 9 once and either 7 or jump another time- but then immediately cycled power, is it safe to say that I would know immediately had I screwed something up?

Very likely. Recycling power restores previous settings because they are re-read from memory at power-up. Replugging the power cord as well guarantees it. (Yes, there may be a couple of settings -- I know of one in AUDIO -- that survive the Power button, but not unplugging the set.)
Quote:


When you do hit one of those buttons, are the changes cleared if you don't write them, or are you immediately screwed no matter what you do next?

No, they're cleared. In fact, if you do nothing for a few seconds after making a goof, the screen will indicate "SERVICE" again, and you are again NOT in WRITE or INI- mode. Note that the most disastrous mistakes take more than two keystrokes (in that few-seconds period), but thet WRITE takes only two.

However -- if you have made some experimental choices in a code or several that are global settings, and you have gone away from them and become distracted, those settings might be written inadvertently when you do your next intended WRITE. If you are ever in doubt, recycle power, going back into service mode, which guarantees you are starting over "safe." I can't tell you how many times I have done this. I tinker and tinker, then have some kind of epiphany about a certain setting and want to WRITE it. I have learned to stop, make a note of what I want to do, then recycle power, go back to those settings, change them, *then* WRITE. Better safe . . .
post #267 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by billmail1 View Post

Blacks in my 960 have a green tint. Glenn, Ken and ADU, you guys definitely know what you are talking about and I would really appreciate it if you could tell me which SM adjustments need to be changed to get rid of the green tint.

Let's assume it is not the program material. (PBS-HD material frequently has green/yellow-tinted blacks. Drives me nuts! I have complained.) You can see it across different inputs, right, and when the Color slider is all the way down?

The settings that most affect "black" and dark grays are the xCUT codes, but they contribute a little to the color of white, as well. You can try decreasing 2170P-1/GCUT until dark grays match whites in color. Sometimes it involves yellow, too, and raising BCUT a bit may help. Note that the average xCUT settings affect black level, and you may need to readjust SBRT a little to compensate. Try to keep at least one of the xCUT settings close to its previous value. *WRITE DOWN* your changes before and as you make them!

The goal, as you adjust these things without a color-temperature meter, is (1) to get the color of dark, medium, and light gray to match each other and the color of white; and to *simultaneously* (2) get white to look really *white.* Not pinkish, bluish, reddish, etc. If you do this with Color turned down to zero in a fairly dark, neutrally-lighted room, and you avoid *staring* at the TV, you can come close to something quite pleasing, as your eye compensates for a lot. But the eye is much less forgiving of grayscale nonlinearities. Get that grayscale nice and even: No warm whites plus greenish or bluish shadows!

However, my experience with dark-room, eye-based calibrations are that they turn out a little cool in white balance. As I have already written, front-lighted puffy-white clouds at mid-day are a nice reality-check, usually a little warmer than the "ideal" 6500K temperature, but very good. Most important, they illustrate an absence of green or pink contamiation or excessive blue.
post #268 of 2959
Ken,

Thanks for the information. I can tolerate a small amount of blue in the picture (it seems to give it a little more "punch") but the green is really annoying. I have switched to many different HD stations and most have the tint. I reduced the color level to 0 in the User Menu and was able to detect the green tint in the B&W picture. I'll try adjusting the 2170P-1/GCUT tonight and see what happens.

Thanks again!!
post #269 of 2959
I've been poking around trying to find information on LEDs and other light sources that could be used as a D65 white reference, and haven't had too much luck so far. It looks like white LEDs come in several different temps, ranging anywhere from 4500k to 8000k And that they may have some noticeable variation in temperature from hot spot to penumbra, though you can probably find some close to 6500k if you search around a bit. The couple of white key chain LEDs I looked at appeared to be more in the Cool White 8000K range (ie a bit too blueish).

If you don't have some midday clouds handy, then perhaps the ~6500k bulbs some folks use for backlighting might be another option:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=457131

You'd probably also a need a very neutral white surface to shine them on (like perhaps the photocards Glen mentioned). A good art/paint/paper/photographic supply shop might help with this. If anyone has other ideas for affordable D65 light sources/white references though, please chime in. My search continues...
post #270 of 2959
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

I've been poking around trying to find information on LEDs and other light sources that could be used as a D65 white reference, and haven't had too much luck so far.

Neither have I. One of the problems of LEDs, as I recall from my electronics experience, is that their light output is a bit temperature-sensitive. If the R, G, and B LEDs differ in this regard, then the temp of the light changes as well. Maybe this is ameliorated by using a constant-current source for energizing each LED. Of course, then you would have to make *that* insensitive to temperature, or maybe even compensate for the LED's characteristics. You would have to integrate the light from the three LEDs.

Another choice would be to combine a theater gel with a white LED. There are some very subtle colors available from, say, Roscolux, and they offer a nice color-swatch book for free. The light pattern of most white LEDs I've seen have a center that differs in color from the rest of the light output. It, too, would have to be integrated (diffused) somehow.

http://www.rosco.com/us/filters/roscolux.asp

I keep thinking: Maybe the best thing would be to buy/scrounge a cheap TV, make it produce a solid, decently-bright raster, then calibrate it. It would help to have some *area* of standard to compare white with, and that might do the trick. You'd have to warm it up a bit first, but who cares?

My question then becomes: Do I have a friend or relative with a junker TV they'll part with? How about yard sales?
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