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Originally Posted by
mabuttra 
This is what makes me think that comparing V9 to V8 data is like comparing apples to oranges. My DVR (as well as others that I have seen, based on the download schedules they have posted) has eight type 70 downloads, four type 27 downloads, four type 81 downloads and eight type 97 (not type 96) downloads every day.
I corrected my post to reflect type 97 not type 96. My bad
I have the same download schedule as you mentioned, but I am refering to the download schedule that is one or two pages to the right of that one. It is the same schedule but it shows what data gets downloaded each day. There will be a date and time next to what got downloaded. Nobody ever shows pictures of this screen.
Example, If I got six actual data downloads during the entire TVG1 download period for the day, It will also set the clock for drift about 15 seconds into each actual download. I can check this in an additional screen in the clock menu section.
Here is a link to my download schedule:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=689Quote:
The timezone packets are always the weakest link here. They are currently "zooming" in at an average of about two per day LOL. That's much better than six months ago when I was averaging about one every three days. My TVG1 skips are about 25% of the total. The problem with pointing out the problems with my data, is that there is nothing wrong with the data here. My DVR can build a grid in less than three days, which isn't the greatest, but it is much faster than the reports of two weeks, to a month, to never, that I have seen here. Building a grid in less than three days is no fluke. I have reset my DVR over ten times in the last year, and have gotten a grid every time in three days or less (usually less). My point here is that if there was a software problem that prevented the DVR from consistently getting a grid (like HoustonPerson has experienced), I would have seen it at some point. That is why I blame the TVGOS data, rather than the Sony, for these problems.
I tested the analog inserter for the cheif engineer of my cable company last november and I did a full system reset of both version 8 and version 9 at10:00PM and I had a grid by 10:00AM the next morning. And in two additional days both devices had a full 8 days of listings. The longest it took to acheive a grid is around 18 hours because I did the reset in the late afternoon. I did this four seperate times and got the same results for both guides.
The data in the diagnostics screens for both versions was pretty close to each other. The only difference is the version 8 needs the two TVGOS patches.
I then took the version 8 to my sisters in chambersburg and it took around two days to get a grid and then two additional days to get the 8 days of listings. She has comcast cable and they are converting the MPEG legacy stream to analog. I tried three resets and it took a little over two days to get a grid which is the same period of time it takes your sony to get a grid.
It is worth noting that the EPP, DPP, and time zone packets where equal and that the guide never lost its host channel once set.
Because of this and other details I picked up from different posts I am basically 99.999999999% positive that the sony dhg is building its grid from the unconverted MPEG legacy stream.
If you have cable, disconnect your OTA feed, reset your guide, scan for digital channels only if you can or delete the converted legacy stream channel, and see if you can build a grid from TVG1 alone. If the cable company is converting the MPEG leagacy stream then it won't be present on the HD channel that is carrying TVG1.
Since TVG1, TVG2, and the MPEG legacy stream is available at the same time to OTA users there is no way of determining which stream you are building a grid from. I am positive that you are getting listings from TVG1 because your guide can understand that data since it is universal to both streams.
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My host channel situation is very similar to HoustonPerson's. His host channel is channel 11, mine is supposed to be channel 12 (I'll explain what I mean by that in a moment). His is 36 miles away, mine is 37 miles away. Here's the "supposed to be channel 12" explanation. My host channel was on UHF channel 19, then on June 11, it moved to channel 12. Immediately people started complaining that they couldn't get them any more. So Channel 12 filed with the FCC to move their signal back to channel 19, and a couple of months later they did. Despite being High VHF for a while, my TVGOS data didn't suffer at all when they were on channel 12. If you look at the two recovery pages I made, the 08.01.42 recovery was done when they were on channel 12 (Host channel shows as 0:12-0), and the 08.01.71 recovery was done after they moved back to channel 19 (Host channel shows as 0:19-0).
The problem I have with blaming signal strength for HoustonPerson's problem is that it seems to me that if he is losing TVGOS data due to signal strength problems his audio and video would also suffer dramatically (constant dropouts/pixelating). If you don't see dropouts in the picture then I don't see how the TVGOS data could be damaged. I haven't asked him about this, but maybe he does have visible reception issues, that he hasn't mentioned.
Mark
Just because you are at the same distance from the transmitter doesn't mean that the same equipment set up will work because there is to many variables at play.
Here is a quote from TVFool:
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Reception at your location is affected by many factors such as multipath, antenna gain, receiver sensitivity, buildings, and trees - which are not taken into account.
What you can't see is how much noise is HP is getting and what effect it is having on the portion of the 6 MHz channel where the TVGOS data is being carried.
TVG1 and TVG2 is carried in one part of the 6MHz channel and the MPEG legacy stream is carried in a different part of the 6MHz channel. Also I don't think there is any error correction that is carried in the three TVGOS data streams, so if noise is an issue the guide can't the data that is replaced with noise.
Here is some very good and important information from TVFools website about noise and signal strength:
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The most important number to pay attention to is the Noise Margin, in the "NM(dB)" column, for each of your local channels. These values tell you if you are above or below the detection threshold for each station and by how much. Since these values represent the amount of signal "in the air" at your location, you need to have enough margin to account for building penetration, cable loss, splitters, tuner sensitivity, and other factors specific to your setup. If you take the initial NM value for a given channel, add your antenna gain, subtract all the other system losses, and still end up with a value above 0, then you should be able to detect that channel.
Another way to think about Noise Margin is that it's the total amount of noise or signal degradation that you can endure before the signal drops into an unusable state. Things like building penetration, cable loss, and splitters are just a few examples of things that might eat away at your available Noise Margin. If the Noise Margin ends up below zero after accounting for all the losses in your setup, then the channel is probably no longer watchable.
Antenna gain is the only quantity that should ever be ADDed to the NM value. Most antennas will specify their gain in dBd or simply dB, and this is the value that should be used. If an antenna's gain is specified in dBi units, then you need to subtract 2.15 in order to get the equivalent value in dBd units. If an antenna has a built-in amp, the extra gain from the amp SHOULD NOT be included as part of the antenna gain (this actually subtracts from the Noise Margin as we'll see next). Only the raw intrinsic gain of the physical antenna should be added to the Noise Margin.
Be aware that amps and pre-amps will actually cause you to lower your Noise Margin. No matter how much gain an amp or pre-amp claims, it will actually reduce your Noise Margin by the amount listed as the Noise Figure (NF) in its specs. High quality consumer-grade amps usually have a Noise Figure of around 2-3 dB. Lower quality amps or ones that do not specify a noise figure at all will probably have a Noise Figure of around 6-10 dB. This is true for both stand-alone amps as well as antennas with built-in amps. This Noise Margin degradation is caused by limited efficiency of the electronics at the input of the amp prior to the signal being boosted. The primary benefit of the amp is to overcome further NM degradation from "downstream" losses (e.g., long cable runs, splitters, tuners with poor sensitivity, etc.). In other words, you suffer the amp's Noise Figure degradation once, and can usually ignore most of the other losses that occur after it.
Link to the above information:
http://www.tvfool.com/index.php?opti...d=57&Itemid=78
