Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread - Page 855

I don't know why, but the guides as of last year were only CBS promo slots (CBS in NYC carries the signal). There used to be a lot more "different" promo ads....

No issues here. My spouse has the sort of memory (unlike, say, the husband) that at 9 pm on channel x is show y...not a problem for WAF, but for HAF, can be confusing !

I contacted Rovi on 11/6/2012 and thought that they would never call me back.

But this morning at 10:57 am EST I received a call from Jay Altavista @ Rovi about the Gemstar/Rovi Guide System. After a 26 minute conversation with Jay, this is what I found out:

1 - We are not going to get any help from Rovi, they are not going to continue maintaining the Gemstar system after April 2013 due to the high expense. (talking with Jay, It doesn't sound good for many Rovi employees next year)

2 - Most TV's & DVR's with the exception of SONY DHG-HDD recorders can set their own time without the data provided by Gemstar and continue to be able to record at designated times with no TV Guide data assistance.

3 - According to Jay Altavista, The TVGOS 10.1 data over the internet is NOT compatible and will NOT work with the Sony DHG-HDD even if we could find a way to get the data into the unit via OTA or network.

The only thing we can pray for is a firmware update from SONY for setting the clock. It may happen, I was very surprised after all of the analog broadcasting had ended that Sony provided us with the .21 update that kept us going for a few more years.

Why? More detail needed. Cause Sony didn't pay for licensing of 10.1 in 2004?

Jay Altavista did not give any details on why the data from TVGOS 10.1 would not work.
Edited by ACSWIRELESS - 11/22/12 at 6:20pm

At work today, I thought more about what I posted this morning (even if we get a clock fix, lack of WAF with manual recordings only).

I really don't record a whole lot of content. The few times the box has taken a dump, or we lost the grid, the thing that the family bitched about most was the lack of the guide. Thinking about my own viewing habits: I spend a lot of time browsing the guide to find something that I'll fall asleep to in the evening. In my household, the guide is what makes this thing so darn useful...

My speculation is that Rovi stopped selling ad space on these devices about a year ago. It probably should have been a sign of bad things to come. I will guess that when Rovi struck a deal with CBS to carry the data, that free ads for CBS was included with the deal. That could explain why their ads are still being delivered. This is all just speculation on my part though.

Mark

Could you provide a screen shot of 10.1? I can provide several of 10.2.99 if it would help anything.

For one thing, I don't believe the 10.1 TVGOS data goes out more than 24 hours in advance. It's designed for TV's, not for DVR's.
It also probably doesn't have the capability to display the "Record" indications in the Listings for scheduled recordings.

Same for 10.2 and it's a rolling 24 hours. As a side note, it does list my clear QAM channels. I watch so little real-time TV it's not worth the time to map them. Anyhow, I usually only watch the major networks plus A&E, TNT and USA, which are SD without the TiVo.

I'm sure licensing is a big part of it, and the fact that Sony would have to re-write so much of the TVGOS code to make 10.1 work. It just doesn't surprise me at all that 10.1 is not an option, just like upgrading the Sony to V9 was not an option when Sony was working on the 1.2.21 firmware.

Mark
Edited by mabuttra - 11/13/12 at 5:15pm

To answer your question:

You can't record Netflix movies with the TiVo. Pretty sure that's against Netflix's license terms anyway, so it's streaming only. TiVo doesn't support Vudu (as far as I'm aware). Amazon movies do download to your TiVo, so you won't have to re-stream them. If it's a time-limited item, like a rental, once you start watching it it's on a 24- or 48-hour timer, depending on the terms with the studio, so the TiVo will remove it when the rental period is up. If you have something that's purchased (a movie, a TV episode, whatever), that will remain on your drive indefinitely, or until the TiVo needs more disk space.

The only product on the market that I know of that can record Netflix movies is PlayLater (www.playlater.tv).

Ditto here.

Except my cable company has its own TVGOS inserter, but the one ad that was still shown, was for our nearest CBS station (sometimes CBS network shows... sometimes their own local CBS news shows).

Forum members in the DTV Pal thread are attempting to delegate someone to visit the Rovi offices.
They may need a lawyer to draw up a petition (speedlaw???) . . .

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1099071/the-official-avs-dish-dtvpal-dvr-topic/14970#post_22586006

Barbarians at the Gate.

Thanks, but I live near NYC, not the left coast, and my job doesn't require travel there !

Killing a free guide makes perfect sense from the business purpose of Rovi, based on reading the website. If they bought TVGOS for the patents, and want to provide "digital" information for cableco/sat, then killing their own "free" competition is rational-not that anyone can "just go get it" anyway.

Rovi's real clients see OTA and cord cutting to be bad things and it scares them to death. Anything Rovi can do to make us go "tivo" or "cableco" and NOT cut the cord is in the best interest of the clients of Rovi. Bombing the last "free" DVR/Cablecard (and the HDMI Consortium making sure no one makes a new one) out there is part of that.

Let us hope that Sony saves us, and that "clockset" is not forbidden under the HDMI/HDCP licensing agreement we aren't allowed to see.

(I've gone over the HDMI website, and the adopter agreement is not public, also the companies who have been terminated under the licensing scheme is a long list)

Did DTV Pal pay a fee to Rovi - Gemstar too ? At least their gadget will still work.

Anyone who has read the HDCP agreements care to chime in ? I'm not a conspiracy buff, but the evidence all points to this.

And, class, herein is the problem with all "closed source" or "proprietary" software. "The walled garden" is a prison.

It was just a thought. I just noticed their discussion this morning. It seems that forum member P Smith is only minutes from the Rovi office and seems willing to stop in there and "vent". I got the impression that he thought he might be better armed if he was carrying a petition . . .

Bought an Tivo HD 160GB with an external 1TB drive on Ebay yesterday for $380 including shipping. Dual Tuners, works with cable and OTA. Beware that only the lowest Tivo Premier works with OTA.
A big thanks to all the forum members that have helped out over the years with how-to's to get over the DHG's quirks.

To my understanding, they didn't, but only because due to a previous lawsuit settlement between Gemstar/Rovi and Dish/E*, they had cost-free access to the TVGoS service. As far as I know, that still didn't require Rovi to provide the service indefinitely.
One can use a TiVo Premiere without cable, but you still have to pay for either the monthly service fee or Product Lifetime Service. TiVo doesn't use Rovi's guide data, but Tribune's, and a full guide data feed like what TiVo gets from Tribune costs a lot of money. My parents have only OTA, and they use their Premiere all the time.

One other option I use is a PC with Snapstream beyond tv4 software and 2 turners in it. I use it as a backup for my 2 HDD500 units, I just use a wireless laptop to connect to my TV when I need to play a program from the DeskTop PC out of SnapStream videos. It does record in HD but I let it convert the video to AVI for space saving and faster play over wireless to laptop. I like it becuase it can find TV shows that move from 1 time slot to another time. Also I can use the internet remotely to have it record a show when I'm away from the house. I have used it for many years and with my HDD500 and I do not missed any shows. The HDD500 at times would drop a program record list and the PC would record it, a good backup. So I will either go with TIVO or build livingroom PC with Snapstream.

http://www.snapstream.com/products/beyondtv/

$500 and $40 for the warranty. Some people never give up.

That is a major waste of time. From my past interactions with Rovi management, it was obvious that they had little interest in continuing to support TVG in North America. They have other products with worldwide distribution that seem to provide far more revenue to the company, so they're probably just cutting their losses.

An earlier post indicated that Sony wanted to hear from DHG users who were going to miss TVGOS.

I had an online chat:

You are chatting with Nate - (C3UR).11/12
Sony Electronics
8:49 PM Connecting...
8:49 PM Connected. A support representative will be with you shortly.
8:50 PM Support session established with Nate - (C3UR).
8:50 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Hi. Welcome to Sony Online Support. I'm Nate.
8:50 PM Customer:
Ni Nate
8:51 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Hello.
8:51 PM Nate - (C3UR):
May I know your concern in detail?
8:51 PM Customer:
I saw a post on a Sony forum that said that future support for this model
would be driven by customer input. Question 1: How do I write to customer
support to get continued function from my two DVRs?
8:52 PM Customer:
Question 2: What is Sony's plan for users of this model after Rovi cuts
the cord on TVGOS?
8:53 PM Customer:
I have over $1000 invested in these units. Is Sony saying they are just
expensive paperweights?
8:54 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Okay.
8:54 PM Nate - (C3UR):
I've checked this information.
8:54 PM Nate - (C3UR):
This model will no longer be able to receive TV Guide information
because they do not have Internet update capabilities for the TV Guide
On Screen service.
8:55 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Our Customer Support is not available on Email Support.
8:55 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Based on the information it seems to me that you're located in the U.S.
Is that correct?
8:55 PM Customer:
Yes
8:56 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Okay.
8:56 PM Customer:
So Sony says to write but they will not give any address to write to?
8:56 PM Nate - (C3UR):
I'll provide you the contact information of our Customer Experience Team.
8:56 PM Nate - (C3UR):
You can contact our Customer Relations Team at: 1-239-768-7547 (U.S. only).
or 1-800-222-7669.
8:56 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Their hours of operations are: Mon-Fri 9:00AM-8:00PM ET.
Saturday and Sunday from 10:00am to 8:00pm ET.
8:57 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Our Customer Experience Center can only be contacted via Telephone.
8:57 PM Nate - (C3UR):
They're not available on Email.
8:58 PM Customer:
And Sony's position about continued use of these units is ?????
9:00 PM Nate - (C3UR):
I'm sorry; I did not get you.
9:01 PM Customer:
What does Sony say I should do with these units now that TVGOS is
going away?
9:01 PM Customer:
Throw them away?
9:01 PM Nate - (C3UR):
I do understand your concern.
9:02 PM Nate - (C3UR):
I suggest that you contact our Customer Experience Center Team to
get the further information in this regard.
9:02 PM Customer:
So you don't know Sony's position?
9:02 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Yes, you're correct as we do not have the information regarding this.
9:04 PM Customer:
Thanks for your help. At least you gave me the phone number.
Please tell your manager that I will NOT eat the cost of these units,
if Sony will not support them I will expect to recover the cost of
them by legal action.
9:04 PM Nate - (C3UR):
You're welcome.
9:04 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Okay.
9:04 PM Nate - (C3UR):
Good bye and thank you for contacting Sony Online Support.
9:04 PM Nate - (C3UR) would like you to complete a brief Customer
Survey. Open Customer Survey
9:04 PM Nate - (C3UR) has ended the session.

So I called Sony for info about TVGOS followon... 11/13 0840
Talked to Lynn
Sony does not have a technical solution for this problem because
they are abandoning units that cannot receive TVGOS via Internet.
Reference # E55986195
Transferring to Customer Relations department
Talked to Dexter
Not going to refund you anything.
Asked for agent for service, they don't have that info.
Dexter says no way to find it out, I should search online.

So I sent a demand letter:
November 13, 2012

General Counsel
SONY CORPORATION OF AMERICA
c/o LAWYERS INCORPORATING SERVICE
2710 GATEWAY OAKS DR STE 150N
SACRAMENTO CA 95833


Dear Sir:

I am informed by Mr. Dexter of your executive escalations department that it is Sony’s position that purchasers of the DHGHDD250 DVR are out of luck that Sony has discontinued providing TVGOS service for this unit.

I have invested over $1000 in two of these units and a further $840 in lost income trying to get redress of this problem.

Please remit $1840 to the address above within 21 days. If you should elect not to do so, I will commence action for breach of contract in San Francisco Superior Court in the amount of the aforementioned losses and any further future losses.

Thank you for your attention and cooperation.

I figure if they get 500 or so of these letters they may just decide to continue support of TVGOS on their own.

Ball is now in the court of us owners. Start writing and encourage your friends to write.
500 machines by $500 is $250K, might change a mind or two...

Good luck with that...

I don't know what is worse, "texting" instead of actually talking to someone, or the posting of that overly long back and forth waste of time. It makes you look bad as it does the rest of us.

Class action suites are a waste of time. It's the wrong approach, so was you "text" session.

The texting was Sony's idea, not mine. I posted it because it is Sony telling us to go get screwed.

I am not suggesting a class action, I am suggesting 500 small claims suits nationwide. At least we should get our money back and maybe we will get Sony to reinstate TBGOS.

Ooops, that's TVGOS.

I'm sorry, but you really think they're going to refund you the full cost of a unit that they haven't sold for... what, 7 years now? Plus missed work costs?

This isn't like with the XBox 360, where there was an actual defect in the product design, so Microsoft extended everyone's warranties and ate $1bn+ to do it. This is a product that they only sold a few of, a serious amount of time ago. The product worked (more or less) as designed. They're all far out of warranty, and the last update was in '09 to help deal with the end of NTSC programming. This isn't like with Moxi, where they were (supposedly) selling lifetime guide service as part of the deal - they sold a device, which uses a service not provided by them. They may have had a limited-period contract with Gemstar, who was later bought by Macrovision (who became Rovi), but that contract is almost certainly long expired.

If someone can convince Rovi it's in their interest to keep TVGoS going, good on them. That said, (1) I consider that highly improbable at this point, because it sounds like they're bleeding red ink in part due to it, and (2) the anger over a 7+ year old device being non-functional in the near future is uncalled-for. Sony doesn't "owe" it to you for them to go to bat for you for a device they haven't sold in years, and won't be making more of *ever*, to try to arm-twist Rovi into doing something they clearly don't want to do. There's no possible grounds for a lawsuit here, and you're kidding yourself to think otherwise.

In short, STOP. Take a few breaths. Think about what you're saying here. Really, really think about it.

You can edit your own posts.

No one is going to get their money back. It would never happen. Best might be a voucher for a small amount for other Sony products.
TVGOS is not Sony's doing, nor are they responsible for it. They are, or should be responsible for a functional DVR with a manual clock setting and manual ability to set programs VCR style. For both of those, they screwed up big time. Why would anyone assume the time setting and Guide data was foolproof and would last the lifetime of the product, not providing some alternative method.