Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread - Page 862

Don't know if it will do any good, but back in 2009 enough requests got us our ATSC digital only software upgrade from Sony. You don't know until you try, if enough of us asks the better our chances are. Please go to site below and let Sony know.

Just sent the message below to Sony at:

http://community.sony.com/t5/Other-Sony-Products/dhg-hdd250-dhg-hdd500-Sony-DVR-s/m-p/37437



Re: dhg-hdd250/dhg-hdd500 Sony DVR's
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11-23-2012 10:19 PM

I now have four perfectly good DHG HDD-500 units that would still be usable as HD DVR's if Sony would accept the fact that they failed to have a way to set the time. I know that the TV Guide service is out of Sony's control, but don't blame TVGOS for a SONY product that DOES NOT have a way to set the clock from a menu in the Sony product when other manufactures do make it possible to set the time without TVGOS.

Why is it that SONY did not enable a way to set the "clock" when most other manufacturers let the owners set the clock without a TVGOS signal? Sony could have fixed that when the software was upgraded for digital only service in 2009.

I realize that the DHG HDD units don't have a battery back-up for the clock, but we can solve that problem with a UPS.

Sony, don't let down thousands of your customers that shelled out $800 - $1000 per unit, and most purchased more than one unit since multi-tuner units were not available at that time.

Thanks,

ACS Wireless
Edited by ACSWIRELESS - 11/23/12 at 7:47pm

I just posted my note there and encourage everyone else to do the same...bottom line is that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Note that the step by step procedure documentation was created by mabuttra at the time that TVGOS was still being broadcast by his local station. Without the TVGOS signal, the step by step will not work.

Some posters on this forum indicate that they are still getting TVGOS from their local station. This sounds like an opportunity for them to create a VHS tape from the local TVGOS host and provide copies for use by anyone interested in setting their DHG-HD250/500 clock to something approaching current date and time (business opportunity?).

This is pure blue sky speculation as I don't know that the TVGOS VBI data will be reproduced by playing the tape in a VCR and adjusting the DHG-HD250/500 to obtain VBI from the RF channel output of the VCR.

An interesting observation: I lost TVGOS at the beginning of November and before I had checked this thread to find that TVGOS had gone away, I performed a TVGOS reset on my HD250 and lost the clock and the empty grid. Since then I have been performing manual recordings but the dates were in January of 2004. Just two days ago, my 250 had locked up while I was fast forwarding while recording and had to have the power pulled to recover. I lost the clock again but even without TVGOS I see that the front panel clock is now displaying time that is 6 hrs and 16 minutes ahead of local time. But the strange thing is that the internal clock now has the correct date showing 11/24/12. My HD250 is running software version 1.2.21.

Another possibility: Since Rovi has terminated TVGOS over the air, what's to stop Sony (or anyone else) from publishing the VBI data packet format so that motivated hackers can build a NTP based system to assemble the VBI clock set packets? This would also require hobby hardware to insert the
VBI packets in over the air broadcast signal. If the hardware and software can be assembled, then we might get the ability to perform a clock set on the DHG-HD250/500.

That brings up an interesting thought -- perhaps the DHG units don't have stable self-sustaining clock hardware. If it was designed to have its clock continually set by an external time source, they may have not put much effort into hardware that could maintain accurate time over a period of days or weeks without drifting a lot. Easy enough to test for the people who already have had TVGOS shut down -- pull the plug to reset the clock and mark it against a real time source then see how much it drifts over time.

A VHS tape will work, but test it. I have three Mitsubishi S-VHS units, one digital, and a JVC digital. Only the oldest Mits unit preserves the VBI.

When power fails or is removed, the date sticks. It sticks for a long time, but I have only tested it for a week. It has been found by others that the recovered time offset is a constant. One person waited for that "wrong time" on the following day and applied power. It helped with the manual calculation. There is also a tool by WS to make the conversion.

After a week without TVGOS my unit's clocks were still so close I could not tell. My current TVGOS time is 6 seconds slow (legacy feed). As a cable only person, I will speculate that the time comes from the local inserter, not from the listing updates. Since my lineup is circa 2008, maybe Rovi will forget about my inserter and I will keep my clock. I can wish.

I hope I keep TVGOS until after 3/10/13 when we go back to Daylight Savings.

Here in Philadelphia, we lost TVGOS data twice during the past year, both times for more than a month. On one of those occasions, we did not lose power and the clock remained accurate for manually scheduled recording (might have drifted a minute or two over the period of a month). In the other case, we did lose power, but the clock came back something like 40 minutes off, so it was still possible to schedule recordings with a little mental arithmetic.

So the conclusion is that the internal clock is not battery backed, but probably based on 60Hz. power (which isn't 60Hz. these days, but close enough). When running on a UPS, drift is likely to be significantly higher. Or it could be a non-battery-backed quartz clock, but that seems less likely.

I wouldn't mind setting the time once a month if it would mean I can keep on scheduling recordings. The trick is going to be to convince Sony to add that capability to firmware probably nobody there even remembers for virtually no payback other than goodwill.

Correct. If TVGOS is gone nothing will get the grid back, once it is lost. HonestLeeD gets his data from the NYC market, and according to some, they will be one of the last stations to lose TVGOS in April.

The video tape recording would have to be made of an analog station that carries TVGOS. That is only available from some cable systems. Some of the cable stations that used to carry analog data, went the way of the dodo, even before Rovi made the announcement they were ending TVGOS for good.

Mark

Perhaps a motivated engineer out there will create a PCIP to TVGOS converter.
RF receiver to get PCIP, a micro to do conversion and add time, and an RF modulator on channel 3.
It wouldn't be great, but better than nothing.

Yeah. Then you could run home at 2pm in the afternoon to schedule your 8pm recording . . .

PSIP is useless as a Guide... and PCIP is even worse than useless.

People need to just FORGET about PSIP for the Sony.

Even if the motivated engineer wanted to just encode the time, he/she would need the TVGOS VBI packet specifications, which are a closely guarded Rovi secret. Generating an NTSC video signal and the RF modulation are a piece of cake; what bits to put on VBI line 14 to get the clock to set is the challange. That would take some very, very serious reverse engineering. My bet is it's heavily encrypted.

If anyone has the motivation and contacts to make a PCIP to TVGOS converter, it would be Channel Master.
They bought the DTVPAL DVR that relies on TVGOS. This product is useless without TVGOS.

Did they buy DTVPAL converter too? If not, they certainly have to contacts to buy it.

The DTVPAL converter has everything in it to make a PCIP to TVGOS converter.
The code already reads PCIP and TVGOS from digital stream.
Already does pass through of TVGOS from digital to analog RF.

With new firmware, the DTVPAL converter could be a PCIP to TVGOS converter.

Channel Master simply sold a product manufactured by Echostar. Yes, Echostar is the only entity other than Rovi (and the now defunct GemStar) that actually has the know-how to decode TVGOS digital format; whether they know how to decode the analog VBI format is debatable, since neither the DTVPal DVR nor the DTVPal CECB (which doesn't decode anything except PSIP) receive analog signals. But in any case, Echostar has no more motivation than Sony to invest in a dying technology.

Also I'll point out two other things: 1) The DTVPal DVR is not useless without TVGOS since it has other ways the clock can be set, unlike our situation; and 2) it's PSIP, not PCIP.

Our family owns ten of the sony dhg hdd-250 and 500s. TVGOS has been gone for a month here. Out of the five units here, three clocks are complete different, one unit is off a day and lockups are much more frequent. I have set zip code to 00000 on two of the units to see if it helps. The first unit did have a grid return complete with "no listings". I have been doing manual recording for a month now. Very difficult with a contantly changing clock. My communication with ROVI and Sony have been no help. I refuse to go Tivo for the main purpose of it being because of them that we can not have a DVR similiar to a Tivo. Our sonys for instance. Tivo sues everyone that comes out with a DVR that has TV listings and can stack up to their unit. How long does their patent last? Why can't consumers buy these units? Are they all really that greedy that everyone has to pay for a service contract? Thanks for letting me vent...Just angry. We have purchased a couple of channel masters. We'll see how that goes.

PCIP?? ;
https://www.pcip.gov/
That's all what is found for the first 10 pages of a Google search with "PCIP" for the search term.
. Yes, they are that greedy.
Let one buy a functional product (without their pay Guide) at a fair market price and give me the option of adding a pay Guide ,later if I want to. Period! What/where is the problem with that?

Ten! Wow, that's dedication. It's ok to vent as many have done this month. As for the CM, they have their own thread here. I had one for a few hours and it didn't like my cable.

As for Rovi, you don't stop a service that is making you money. Either they asked for too much or the stations got tired of paying more. If I was a Rovi shareholder I would be really pissed. PBS, the first to stop TVGOS, has no money. CBS, the biggest, may not be getting what they payed for. Who knows?

We have two main problems:

1. Sony didn't engineer a "Date & Clock" system into their software because it was going to be provided by GemStar (now Rovi) as part of the TV Guide data system. It would be nice to see Sony step up and add this function, but lack of Rovi service is the main problem.

2. The biggest problem is that Rovi obtained the TV Guide system from GemStar to add to their product line & now doesn't want support hundreds of thousands of customers that paid high dollar for DVR's & TV's that will not do as it they were manufactured without the GUIDE.

Our units came with "lifetime" TV Guide service, the life of our DVR's are ending not because they died from natural causes, but because they are being suffocated by Rovi. It's time to find out Rovi's liability, Rovi made the decision to takeover/purchase the TVGOS system & Rovi made the decided to make our units worthless.

I feel that Rovi has stolen money from us, and it's time to find out our legal position.
I will be contacting a legal firm on Monday to see where we stand.
Edited by ACSWIRELESS - 11/25/12 at 9:17am

I get the Guide data from CBS. When I scroll though the Ads in the welcome window I now have 4 CBS ads, that’s 3 more than I ever had before the End ad was posted.

Is Rovi trying to meat their contractual obligations to post CBS ads they have not aired because of all the technical problems with TVGOS and because of their laxed unknowledgeable support team not inserting the ads?

My theory is this; areas that will die first are the areas where ads were posted in a timely manner with little back log. In areas like mine that had just one ad most of the time, Rovi needs more time to post the un-posted ads to meet their contractual obligations, in my case, with CBS?

This is the only reason I can think of as too why I have more ads now since the April end time ad was posted and why Rovi can’t just pull the plug now.

I have also made this connection as I believe Comcast is Rovi’s largest client.

Comcast is rolling out a new Guide 2.0 due to be completed in most parts of the U.S. in the summer of 2013 after the death of TVGOS. It will be most likely a Rovi Guide as Comcast uses their iGuide now, which sucks.

The new 2.0 guide is very much like TVGOS. Its format allows you to edit the grid, remove Channels and stack the order of the ones you want keep. Outside of fancier graphics and more viewing choices it’s much like the TVGOS format.

All this makes me conger that Comcast is the major player behind the death of TVGOS. Is Rovi requiring the return of TVGOS Inserters by CBS so they might update the Hardware/Firmware and ship back those very same rack mounted Inserters to Comcast to broadcast 2.0 date?

In an earlier post, I stated jokingly that I ran a G* test on my DHG and it turned into a Comcast Box. Maybe that wasn’t a joke?

Find the 2.0 users guide here.
http://info.xfinity.com/Comcast/Portal/content/Comcast/VideoMicrosites/onscreenguide2/Images/XF_BAR1_1_0711.pdf

Bruce-no offense, but you are not even close to the typical consumer who would buy a DVR. The vast majority of potential buyers would not even consider the device if it did not have a functional guide. Its all well and good that you are willing to buy essentially a hard drive based VCR without guide, but most people are simply too lazy if it involves more than scanning through an EPG and hitting the record button when they find something they want to record.

I do agree though that some of the engineering decisions on CE devices are short sighted, perhaps intentionally (engineered revenue streams?).

Going back to the subject of PSIP to TVG converted. Yes it seems only LG, Sony, Rovi, Echostar know the proprietary format of the packets (analog or digital) which the TVG system uses and we know that Rovi will not release their specifications since it seems they still use the technology in other markets/transport mechanisms, so hopefully some very skilled individual will pop up on the scene and offer up a reversed specification for some other handy individual to take and use to develop either a PSIP-TVG or Schedules direct-TVG converted.

One can dream.

What's your theory on cable feeds and the fact I haven't had any ads in over a year? The only addition is the cancellation ad that went away from my test unit when I pulled the plug for a week.

Just curious why are you guys not on Rovi's facebook page complaining to them. They read and answer posts there. Your voice will be heard there. Problem is only a few of us bothered to post on the Rovi Facebook page. If 25 to 100 posted there they might try to help us. Posting there might help. It might not ,but it is worth the try. it is free. It is realtime.
Edited by keyboard21 - 11/25/12 at 11:58am

I doubt Sony or LG are privy to the TVGOS format, they simply install Rovi-provided TVGOS firmware in their product. Echostar OTOH does, as the result of some legal settlement way back when; so they wrote their own firmware to decode and display the guide data (in their own format and without ads) and to use the TVGOS provided clock when available. Neither Rovi nor Echostar is going to make those specs public. What this needs is hacker-level expertise

That's a great idea. There's only a handful of posts so far. But they're all the most recent ones posted there. They only replied to one of the posts so far.

I read through some of the posts there and they had a problem with Samsung smart TV's and it took them six months to fix that. Doesn't look like an action oriented organization.

I posted on the ROVI FB tonight.

 

Huh? 

 

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_Plus

https://www.facebook.com/RoviCorp

And don't forget @RoviCorp on Twitter...

And now for the latest on the DFW (Dallas) CBS TVGOS service (I still do not know the local call letters LOL).

With the change to only RF 19 (RF 11 was deleted) the TVGOS went bye bye.

Also missing is the pips for station info etc. Guess somebody threw all their inserters in the river?

And the CLOCK is also bye bye. It is off by about 4-5 hours now.

So now I have a large silver Brick that says “Sony”.

Wonder if the PIPS comes back will the TVGOS come back? Was the same inserter handling both jobs? Most likely “not”.

All is not lost. Is the date ok? That would make manual recording easier using the WS tool. I think it's KTVT. As for hardware, this makes it simple to say "not", the PSIP is not the same hardware as TVGOS:

http://hd.engadget.com/2009/05/08/hd-101-what-is-atsc-psip-qam-and-8-vsb/
It's old but pretty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KTVT even has a note on your channel changes.

Interesting. I have a Dish DTVPal DVR (actually two) and the clock is still dead on compared to a radio controlled clock on the wall, and the TVGOS goes out til next Monday like always. Seems to have followed along with the transition here.