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Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread - Page 889

post #26641 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy900 View Post

Out of curiosity did you take note of the time when the unit powered back up after you did the FP reset?

I'm just curious if your unit defaults to 12AM?
On the failure I did the FP reset at 8:10 EST. The good FP reset around 16:00 EST. When I do a real (9012) reset or format the time always goes to 00:00 since I lose my zipcode and UTC offset. Normally the time comes back about 90 minutes behind.

This is only conjecture, but the loss of time value seems proportional to the length of power loss. A short power loss can cause only a small clock change. Perhaps it is the condition of the capacitors in the circuit.
Edited by JoeKustra - 1/28/13 at 11:52am
post #26642 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

So what should I do right now - while I still have valid TVGOS data from my OTA CBS affiliate?

1. Make a VCR VHS tape of the TVGOS VBI clock and grid info. How?
2. Test the VCR recording by ??? Won’t this ruin my current good working setup?
3. Play with making a manual “weekly” recording (have not done this but I trust this works)
4. What else???

I have an old analog-tuner JVC VCR, how do I record the digital OTA CBS broadcast of the TVGOS VBI data?

You CAN'T....

The people that are still able to do this are the very few individuals that still have analog TVGOS available on their CableCo line. You are OTA only, so you don't have that option. But chances are your CableCo doesn't have analog TVGOS available anyway . . .

I have no analog TVGOS on my cable line... these days I no longer have digital TVGOS on my cable line either. I do have a couple of tapes that I had made several years ago before the analog cutoff, but I've never tested them. However I switched to TiVo's in January 2012, and my DHG's are only used as CableCard tuners these daze . . .
post #26643 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

So what should I do right now - while I still have valid TVGOS data from my OTA CBS affiliate?
I am straight OTA, and have no cable.
izzy is right. I am legacy cable TVGOS only. No experience doing anything with digital TVGOS OTA.

Or what WS said.
Edited by JoeKustra - 1/28/13 at 11:48am
post #26644 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

You CAN'T....

The people that are still able to do this are the very few individuals that still have analog TVGOS available on their CableCo line. You are OTA only, so you don't have that option. But chances are your CableCo doesn't have analog TVGOS available anyway

Argh. I feared and suspected that (digital-to-analog tuners would not pass the digital VBI pkts back down into an analog stream).

Izzy, I have been reading old/recent posts but the data is hard to sift through (OTA vs cable, etc).

We should make a definitive wiki page somewhere that captures the conclusions ("so far") to the discussions here.

So on to the next question... without any TVGOS data, what are the OTA steps to use your DHG-HDD as a simple VCR?

My guess:

Step1 - Set the clock via ??? Front panel reset at midnight (some say not to) vs Factory reset vs 00000 zip code??? Seems for most Clock Drift is not a problem (stays w/in one minute)
Step2 - Find the manual record interface - enter the raw (non-grid) tuner channel such as 44.1, set the weekly start time, set the record length, and choose record mode to "weekly"

Or is this the point where you tell me that the pessimistic posts are right, none of this "Use as a VCR" operation can be done without a clock-set firmware update from the Sony sustaining team first? I likewise just send a Sony a request for clock set firmware (which would be nice either way).
post #26645 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACSWIRELESS View Post

I just sent the following to Sony Customer Support:



I own four DHG-HDD500's that now are useless, What is SONY doing to fix this problem?

My four DHG-HDD500's are now are useless due to SONY not providing a way to set the time & date in the firmware, I can't even set a remote record time due to no clock. Please don't put all of the blame on Rovi for dropping TVGOS service, your product should be able to do a basic operation like setting time & date. You made a firmware update to add Digital TVGOS to the DHG-HDD500 & DHG-HDD250, so a basic operation to set the time to keep us SONY customers happy should not be too much trouble.

P.S. a stand alone Internet to analog tv modulator to get TVGOS data into any TV or DVR on channel 3 or 4 would be a great way to show your customers that you care. I have spent over $4000.00 alone on my four DHG-HDD500's that I own, so what SONY does will make the the decision on if I buy another SONY product and how I will let others know the value of owning a SONY product.

I'm sure that there is something, either in the CableLabs specs, or the HDCP specs, forbidding this. I'm guessing Cablelabs, because there have been DVR released with HDMI/HDCP but not CableCard ability (channemaster, dish, a few others). Without a way to remotely kill the box, CableLabs probably won't approve the design. The time stamp is how they can remotely kill the box....your cable company can adjust the Cable Card, but unlike the Cable Company Cable Box, can't control the whole box from the head end.... I base this theory on the fact that even a lifetime TiVo with OTA only still has to be hooked up to TiVo to work, and the fact the current Cable Boxes are fully authorized by the head end-If I disconnect my box, the head end tells it my resolution settings (!) after the boxes negotiate.

We can't read the CableLabs "highly confidential" docs, likewise the HDCP rules are not for our eyes... They can bomb all the boxes but can't shut off just one....so they are. (Good Riddance ! grumbles the MPAA execs in the smoky board room, dreaming of 1983 CD sales....)

Anonymous, where are you ? These files need release smile.gif Surely you guys can get into the relevant databases.

Sony, you've left a lot of AVS "influencers", folks with real money to put into AV, really unhappy. Oh well, at least we didn't get a rootkit this time.....
Edited by speedlaw - 1/28/13 at 12:49pm
post #26646 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

Argh. I feared and suspected that (digital-to-analog tuners would not pass the digital VBI pkts back down into an analog stream).

The only possibility I can think of is if you could get your hands on an ARTEC device, the one that will convert the digital TVGOS stream to an analog TVGOS stream. HoustonPerson has one... but I don't know if the Artec device will tune OTA or not . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

Or is this the point where you tell me that the pessimistic posts are right, none of this "Use as a VCR" operation can be done without a clock-set firmware update.

I can be done without a clock set firmware update IF you like jumping through hoops . . .biggrin.gif
post #26647 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

So what should I do right now - while I still have valid TVGOS data from my OTA CBS affiliate?
[...]

What WS65711 said is correct. There is no VBI in an ATSC signal, so you can't record that. However, there are 3 alternatives you can use. A DTVPal DVR, a DTVPal converter box or an Artec T3APR-T, all have a TVGOS mode that will convert the legacy data to analog VBI, and the output from one of those devices can be recorded.

Unless you have one of those devices laying around somewhere, I wouldn't buy one. I believe (especially for OTA users), that izzy900's procedure for setting the clock, would work good enough, even if you don't have a grid. Of course if you lost the grid, you would also lose the front panel clock, but that would not effect your ability to record.

Mark
post #26648 of 29213
I am just a newbie at this Forum, my input was a post on a front panel reset to get the clock to the right time of day but not day of week. It seems that my theory may be a bit skewed cause my DHG has digital cable with cable card and not OTA! My advice to you is to keep reading this post, and wait patiently for a resolution to your situation. I myself did not know that analog signals from TVGOS were still being transmitted after the digital changeover..wink.gif.
post #26649 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post


Step1 - Set the clock via ??? Front panel reset at midnight (some say not to) vs Factory reset vs 00000 zip code??? Seems for most Clock Drift is not a problem (stays w/in one minute)

Step2 - Find the manual record interface - enter the raw (non-grid) tuner channel such as 44.1, set the weekly start time, set the record length, and choose record mode to "weekly"

Or is this the point where you tell me that the pessimistic posts are right, none of this "Use as a VCR" operation can be done without a clock-set firmware update from the Sony sustaining team first? I likewise just send a Sony a request for clock set firmware (which would be nice either way).
Yes, send Sony a clock set request.
Try a manual recording NOW to see if you can. It's not rocket science and will give you a feel for the issues. I did nothing but manual recordings for over three years.
I wouldn't set the zipcode to 00000.
Don't do a factory or any other internal reset.
If your channels (lineup) are gone, how did that happen? Loss of host channel is normal after 3 days. Loss of clock channel is not.
A FP reset may always produce the same time. Other posts have more information on that.

No friend or relative in your zipcode who can help with a cable analog host?
post #26650 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy900 View Post

..... I myself did not know that analog signals from TVGOS were still being transmitted after the digital changeover..wink.gif.

They are, but only on a very few Cable systems. Not on OTA in the U.S. to my knowledge.
Edited by WS65711 - 1/28/13 at 1:02pm
post #26651 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy900 View Post

I myself did not know that analog signals from TVGOS were still being transmitted after the digital changeover..wink.gif.
A lot of new people here since 11/2012.

Very few cable systems, as WS said, still send legacy data. My company has been told about the situation. I asked to be given notice if they plan to pull the inserter. I'm also part of the group that feels:
1 - The inserter can send a clock without Rovi's help (but it may drift).
2 - Nobody knows if the inserter will stop asking for data or if Rovi will stop answering the phone. Either one stops listing updates.

Both may be wrong.
post #26652 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy900 View Post

I am just a newbie at this Forum, my input was a post on a front panel reset to get the clock to the right time of day but not day of week. It seems that my theory may be a bit skewed cause my DHG has digital cable with cable card and not OTA! My advice to you is to keep reading this post, and wait patiently for a resolution to your situation. I myself did not know that analog signals from TVGOS were still being transmitted after the digital changeover..wink.gif.

Your clock set procedure will work just fine for OTA users. Especially since we don't have to fight the "can't record this channel, because it isn't in the lineup" braindead cable card messages.

Analog TVGOS is only sent out over cable analog channels. Rovi imbeds the old analog (legacy) data in digital form into the ATSC stream (along with the digital TVGOS that is used by digital devices). Some (not many) cable systems have a converter that converts this legacy data back to analog, and sends it out over an analog channel. I have a Panasonic DMR-E95H V7 TVGOS device that still works because my cable company uses one of those legacy converters. Ironically this old analog only Panasonic recorder is going to outlive my digital Sony DHG, because you can disable TVGOS, and manually set the clock. So even though my DHG will be somewhat obsolete after (or before) April, my Panasonic will live on, until it dies of natural causes.

Mark
post #26653 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

Your clock set procedure will work just fine for OTA users. Especially since we don't have to fight the "can't record this channel, because it isn't in the lineup" braindead cable card messages.
Mark
Last summer my headend feed (not Jed1) changed the HD "locals" to one decimal place. Using .21 firmware I can make a manual recording of 105.1 without any problems. Since they no longer have four decimal places, I can also map them to the analog equivalent lineup channels too. I still get the error on basic cable, like A&E at 25.6101, as before. For that I need .13 firmware. I have no cable card in any DHG.
post #26654 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

.... Especially since we don't have to fight the "can't record this channel, because it isn't in the lineup" braindead cable card messages . . .

I was going to test this the other day both with and without a CableCard installed, but I forgot. eek.gif
Maybe I'll try it this evening . . .
post #26655 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post
 
...without any TVGOS data, what are the OTA steps to use your DHG-HDD as a simple VCR?

 

 

I don't know if other people have tried this, or if this works the same on all these units, but what I recently did when I lost all Guide and clock-updating was this:  It was by accident.  I was doing the G* Test on a number of channels to see if I could get a clock reset.  Well... I ended up double-clicking into a Guide Factory Reset.  I lost my Scheduled recordings.  Anyway, I saw that the clock and date sets back to 12am, Jan 1st, 2004.  I looked up the day for that date.  It's a Thursday.

 

So, on a Wednesday night, looking at my digital atomic clock, I did the Guide Factory Reset at 12:00:00am.   This gives me a correct clock and day of the week for my scheduled manual recordings.   Just very recent, I found that WKBN Youngstown, OH (OTA 27.1, RF 41) is sending clock updates (and supposedly Guide data - - - I'm doing testing on this now - - - don't have a grid/listing yet).  If fact, I had another lockup and lost date/clock.  I tuned to 27.1 and did the G* Test and inside of 30 seconds... I got my current date and clock back! 

 

When this TVGOS finally goes away on this station, I'll do the  Guide Factory Reset and do my manual recordings, as I'm doing now (currently with the proper date/year and time).

 

OK, it's almost 5pm.  My 250 is scheduled to record the news.  In a little while, I check to see if I have any listings.  I moved and setup my rabbits ears (got rid of the flat wire and converted it to coax a few years ago) to get a steady signal with WKBN (72%) last night.  I'll have over 12 hours of the 250 being off to get data

 


 

Update: 5:10pm

 

Just checked.  No Listings/Grid.  frown.gif  We'll keep doing a 6-to-12 hour off period each night this week. 


Edited by CleCakYngMfd - 1/28/13 at 2:14pm
post #26656 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

Your clock set procedure will work just fine for OTA users. Especially since we don't have to fight the "can't record this channel, because it isn't in the lineup" braindead cable card messages....

Ok, I just tried scheduling a recording of a CableCard channel while having no Grid or Lineup. On the first attempt after inserting the CableCard the DHG gave me the "can't record this channel, because it isn't in the lineup" message. I acknowledged the message, exited the "Scheduling" screen, changed the channel OFF OF and then BACK ON TO the channel I had first attempted to record. Then I again attempted to record it, and it worked fine on this second attempt and on several more attempts afterward.

This is what I remembered discovering here.

I tried the same thing without the CableCard installed, but did not receive the "can't record this channel, because it isn't in the lineup" message. However, all of my QAM channels are only single decimal place channel numbers.
Edited by WS65711 - 1/28/13 at 3:55pm
post #26657 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealgrof View Post

Guide data is filling in here again after, what, two weeks of "No Listing?" I noticed earlier that some of the boxes said "No Title," and I said "Hmm..." I didn't think much of it until a local friend called to report that his guide was filling in. I checked two of my units, and sure enough, there are some listings.

Last Hurrah? Interesting. Maybe the inserter did just need to be rebooted, but I know this won't last.

It's an odd batch. WBBM, WMAQ, and WGN all show No Listing all the way out. Cozi and Antenna, which are side channels of WMAQ and WGN respectively, have listings. WLS and its side channels, WTTW and its side channels, have the most. Everything cuts off for me on Saturday at 4:00am.

Still, I'll take it. It's another 2-3 months of TVGOS ,maybe. Thanks for spotting this for the rest of us Chicago-market folk.
post #26658 of 29213
Just when I was getting comfortable making manual recordings, fate had to deal another blow: When was watching TV tonight, the DHG rebooted itself. Well, actually it only got to the point after the "Welcome..." screen clears, and then kept looping back over and over. After three repetitions, I pulled the plug, waited a minute and plugged it in again. Same thing. I tried holding the Exit and TV Guide buttons in for minutes at a time, but it would not produce a full boot. Nor would the power button pressed at various times. I finally gave up on saving my grid, and pulled the CableCard, plugged the Sony in again, but still no success. It is unplugged now and cooling overnight, but I'm not sure what to try next.

Recommendations? Does this seem like a hard disk failure? Or does anyone think I should try the hidden front panel menu, formatting, etc?

- Kerry (do I truly own a brick now?...)
post #26659 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryNY View Post

Recommendations? Does this seem like a hard disk failure? Or does anyone think I should try the hidden front panel menu, formatting, etc?

- Kerry (do I truly own a brick now?...)

When this happened to me I did a hard disk reformat and it cleared up. Of course, I had TVGOS back then and the 250 eventually rebuilt the listings. Without TVGOS you might have a brick.
post #26660 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillFromCH View Post

[...]
Without TVGOS you might have a brick.

It depends on your definition of a "brick". My definition of a brick is a device that won't turn on. The Sony without TVGOS will be harder to use, although izzy900's method of getting close to a correct clock can help, but it won't be a "brick". You'll be able to make live recordings, and if the clock is close to the right time, delayed manual recordings. Granted this is more trouble than I wanted to deal with, which is why I bought a TiVo.

Mark
post #26661 of 29213
The manual recording facility seems to offer everything I need to schedule recordings by channel, time, and weekly mode. I can be happy with it. It is still better than a VCR which I was fine with for years, since it will still group shows by record dates. Nightly news is 6:30PM, SNL is 11:30PM Sat, etc.

I wonder if without the TVGOS data coming in, a few months from now, if the seldom remote controller command delays (mini lock ups) will happen less, hopefully not more.

I don't want to play with the 'manual' clock reset yet, since it will mess up the perfectly working VBI capture at present.

Fingers crossed we get some sustaining support from Sony to give us a clock set firmware before the April cutoff date.
post #26662 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

It depends on your definition of a "brick". My definition of a brick is a device that won't turn on.

I agree. For me, "brick" means I can't even use it as a tuner. Manual recording with a screwy clock is the way I've lived with this unit for about a third of the time I owned it, so it isn't a big deal.

When I try the hidden service menu tonight, which option should I try first, if I hope to save anything (recordings or grid):

"Format to get Clear NVM?" or "Select to get Zero HDD?"

- Kerry
post #26663 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

The manual recording facility seems to offer everything I need to schedule recordings by channel, time, and weekly mode. I can be happy with it. It is still better than a VCR which I was fine with for years, since it will still group shows by record dates. Nightly news is 6:30PM, SNL is 11:30PM Sat, etc.

I wonder if without the TVGOS data coming in, a few months from now, if the seldom remote controller command delays (mini lock ups) will happen less, hopefully not more.

I don't want to play with the 'manual' clock reset yet, since it will mess up the perfectly working VBI capture at present.

Fingers crossed we get some sustaining support from Sony to give us a clock set firmware before the April cutoff date.

Since you said OTA only, there is no "VBI data". No offense, but the VBI is only on analog data feeds, like some cable.

My fingers and legs are crossed too.
Edited by JoeKustra - 1/29/13 at 7:05am
post #26664 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by teleskier View Post

The manual recording facility seems to offer everything I need to schedule recordings by channel, time, and weekly mode. I can be happy with it. It is still better than a VCR which I was fine with for years, since it will still group shows by record dates. Nightly news is 6:30PM, SNL is 11:30PM Sat, etc.

I wonder if without the TVGOS data coming in, a few months from now, if the seldom remote controller command delays (mini lock ups) will happen less, hopefully not more.

I don't want to play with the 'manual' clock reset yet, since it will mess up the perfectly working VBI capture at present.

Fingers crossed we get some sustaining support from Sony to give us a clock set firmware before the April cutoff date.

I seriously doubt Sony/Rovi gives a damn about us. It's just business to them. It's funny that they released an update to allow reception of TVGOS data a few years ago, just to pull the plug on that data a few years later. http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/swu-download.pl?upd_id=4542&mdl=DHGHDD500

Data is gone now in Pittsburgh. Trying to get my wife used to navigating the guide (provided by Rovi) in Windows Media Player with the Silicon Dust HomeRun Dual box.
post #26665 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

Since you said OTA only, what part of "you ain't got no VBI" is confusing? No offense, but the VBI is only on analog data feeds, like some cable.
[...]

Ouch!, that's a little harsh. The 753 menu is peppered with VBI this and VBI that, many of those VBI fields (like Last VBI channel) update with digital (non-VBI) TVGOS data. The G* Test prior to 1.2.21 would update the VBI field with live counts. There is no way for someone to know by looking at the Sony that there is no VBI associated with ATSC.

Mark
post #26666 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mabuttra View Post

Ouch!, that's a little harsh. The 753 menu is peppered with VBI this and VBI that, many of those VBI fields (like Last VBI channel) update with digital (non-VBI) TVGOS data. The G* Test prior to 1.2.21 would update the VBI field with live counts. There is no way for someone to know by looking at the Sony that there is no VBI associated with ATSC.

Mark
Totally unintended. I'm the last person here who can pick on people. It's hard to joke on the internet. I'll kill it.
post #26667 of 29213
The Guide is gone in Northern Ca. But on my Version 9 TVs I can set the clock manually and MAYBE use the V9 Guide grid to record ONLY to a VCR, analog/VCRs and HD/CableCards being problems. I can overcome the 30min time blocks on the grid by setting End Time up to 120min late.

When setting up the TVs to record, I can only select from a list codes of VCRs to record too. I selected the Sony as my VCR and now I hope that the code will activate my DHGs threw the TVs I-R blaster.

But then if all of above worked I would again be forded by the DHG’s 30 grid block. “D’oh”
post #26668 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOZOO View Post

The Guide is gone in Northern Ca. But on my Version 9 TVs I can set the clock manually and MAYBE use the V9 Guide grid to record ONLY to a VCR, analog/VCRs and HD/CableCards being problems. I can overcome the 30min time blocks on the grid by setting End Time up to 120min late.

When setting up the TVs to record, I can only select from a list codes of VCRs to record too. I selected the Sony as my VCR and now I hope that the code will activate my DHGs threw the TVs I-R blaster.

But then if all of above worked I would again be forded by the DHG’s 30 grid block. “D’oh”

All the recording done manually or from a "no listing" block will be titled "unknown" but have DOW, date and time. That still beats any VCR I know of.
post #26669 of 29213
On DHGs you can go to the Default Options and set all recordings for up to 120min End Late, that gets around the grid 30min problem. Does it not?
post #26670 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

All the recording done manually or from a "no listing" block will be titled "unknown" but have DOW, date and time. That still beats any VCR I know of.

Wow; I didn't have a clue what DOW meant but this Forum has a search capability second to none!

http://www.avsforum.com/newsearch/?search=DOW&resultSortingPreference=recency&byuser=&output=posts&sdate=0&newer=1&type=all&containingthread[0]=537711&advanced=1

Interesting serendipitous info as well, such as post 11 from the link.
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