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Sony DHG-HDD250/500: Official Thread - Page 952

post #28531 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

Then TiVo could read your mind, then control your selections, then.....

I thought that was why mine has the big eye in the front panel? eek.gif
post #28532 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryNY View Post

Good point; that is TiVo's modus operandi. Which is why I disabled "Suggestions" immediately.

- Kerry

Good move. Here's a story:

When we got our first box in January, we wanted Rocky Horror to be the first thing recorded. It was in the schedule, so I set it up (never got it, still don't know why).

Over the next few days, it recorded 3 very strange shows, including something called Sorority Babes in the Slimeball Bowl-O-Rama. Yuk.

My DHG would never have done that. And that's when I learned about Tivo Suggestions - and how to turn them OFF, forever.
post #28533 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe View Post

I thought that was why mine has the big eye in the front panel? eek.gif

It sounds like you have the HAL 9000 model...

"I could see your lips move"

- Kerry
post #28534 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac24 View Post

Over the next few days, it recorded 3 very strange shows, including something called Sorority Babes in the Slimeball Bowl-O-Rama. Yuk.

My DHG would never have done that. And that's when I learned about Tivo Suggestions - and how to turn them OFF, forever.

Ah, similar to HoustonPerson's “naked Latin people dancing” — it seems like the Suggestions algorithm was written for voyeurs.

- Kerry
post #28535 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac24 View Post

My experience with the .21 firmware was truthful. My guide went away after the Mediacom conversion to digital (on 2 DHGs), and after the firmware was updated the guide came back. Simple as that.

You don't seem very receptive to anything I have to say, so I thought I would wait for someone else to explain this to you. Since no one else has stepped up to do that, I will explain why my recorders continued to work using the older firmware versions and why your recorder(s) started working again after you installed version .21 of the Sony firmware.

Clearly you don't understand the inner workings of these recorders.

The DHGs are essentially single purpose computers with no expansion capabilities. They have a CPU, memory, a hard drive (two if you have a 500GB model), a tuner (NTSC/ATSC/QAM), and various I/O ports (some of which are not accessible to the user). They do not have input ports for either a mouse or a keyboard (not even inaccessible ports).

The software that runs on these machines can be said to fall into one of three groups. The first software group is code written and owned by Sony and is frequently referenced as "the firmware". The second software group is code written by Gemstar and now owned by Rovi. The Gemstar software is often incorrectly referenced as "TVGOS" (more on this later). The third software group is a set of software code and tools written by other parties and provided "as is" under GNU licensing. The first two groups of software are proprietary to the respective companies that wrote them and cannot be legally modified by any other party without express (written) consent of the software owner. The third group of software may be used by either Sony or Rovi in each company's respective software and, because of the licensing mechanism, is also provided to the end user at no cost and can be modified by the end user without permission.

I say that the Gemstar software is incorrectly referenced as "TVGOS" because it encompasses far more than the TV guide information. In addition to providing and maintaining the TV Guide data, the Gemstar software manages the system clock, manages the disk space, identifies and translates broadcast frequencies, and provides the recorder's user interface. TVGOS refers to the actual broadcast data stream and the portion of the software that receives, recognizes, and manipulates it. Although it is a misnomer to refer to the interface software as "TVGOS", we all understand what is meant by this reference.

Because the TVGOS data stream is proprietary to Rovi, only the Rovi/Gemstar software can read and utilize it. Were Sony to do this without Rovi's permission, Rovi would sue Sony for infringement. Therefore, the firmware (Sony) cannot manipulate the data stream (Rovi) and the firmware cannot directly cause the recorder to recognize the guide data in the digital signal (more on this later).

In order to access the guide data in the digital signal (or any TVGOS data for that matter), the recorder needs to be running version 08.06.44 of the Gemstar software. However, this is not the default version of the Gemstar software. On my recorders, as with most previous posters, it is 08.01.42 (during the digital transition some posters reported slightly different default versions). Also, there is no way to directly load version 08.06.44 from the data stream onto the recorder. Version 08.05.40 must be loaded as an intermediate stage to getting version 08.06.44. Fortunately, under normal operation, these updates were transparent to the user. Under other circumstances (including the digital transition for some) the updates do not occur without user intervention. In addition, the sequence that manually restores the correct version is interrupted at specific points because the recorder will stop slicing the TVGOS data stream (more later).

There are certain user commands (such as a full factory reset or a guide configuration reset to name a couple) that will cause the recorder to revert to the default version of the Gemstar software. There are also other things which will cause the recorders to revert to the default Gemstar software, although not in every case. Some of these include performing a second front panel reset before the first front panel reset completes, pulling the plug to regain access after a recorder has locked up and is unresponsive to the remote or the front panel buttons, and rebooting either spontaneously or after a power failure. As we all know, these machines will occasionally reboot on their own for no apparent reason and will sometimes lock up when too many user commands are entered too quickly (there are other reasons that they lock up as well).

Using older versions (prior to .21) of the firmware (Sony), you can recover the version of the interface (Gemstar/Rovi) that allows your recorder to recognize and process the TVGOS data stream in the digital broadcast signal by performing the following sequence (starting at the appropriate step):
1) From the [Menu>Screen Mode>9>0>1>2] menu, enter the [TV Guide] menu, then run the [G* Factory Test] - this will ensure the recorder is slicing
2) Wait until the next software update cycle completes (software updates occur only during certain specific windows of the download cycle) - at this point you will have the intermediate version of the Gemstar software and the recorder will have stopped slicing
3) Repeat step 1 to re-enable slicing
4) Repeat step 2 to get the necessary version of the Gemstar software
5) Repeat step 1 to re-enable slicing

At the time of the digital transition, Sony didn't need to worry about the recorder working in the digital-only environment since the Rovi/Gemstar software already handled that, but it was faced with the question of how to smoothly transition all of the recorders then in service with a minimum of disruption. The choice to issue a firmware update was not made out of the goodness of Sony's heart, rather it was based upon how to minimize the number of customer service calls (complaints) and thereby minimize support costs (I'm not criticizing, it's just good business sense). Sony essentially had two choices: 1) reveal the hidden menus to those that didn't already know about them and instruct the user population on how to perform the updates manually or 2) automate the process and make it transparent to the end user. This was a "no-brainer" for Sony since option 1 would require a means to notify all of the owners of the recorders about the update and then to provide simplified instructions to a group of users that in large part couldn't set the flashing clock on a VCR. On the other hand, Option 2 only required passive user notification if the transition didn't go smoothly and a firmware update would minimize the chances of anything going wrong (meaning fewer calls to customer support).

There are only two things that Sony could have done in the firmware update to affect the desired result of receiving TVGOS data over the digital broadcast signal: 1) monitor slicing and restart it through commands to the Gemstar interface or 2) overlay the default version of the Gemstar software with the version necessary for processing the digital signal. Either one or both of these options together would achieve the desired result. I don't know what was done because Sony didn't announce what changes it made to create the .21 firmware and I never installed it so I couldn't check the diagnostic screens to see if the default version number had changed. I do seem to recall reading that some people who installed .21 claimed they no longer had slicing problems.

So the very long answer is that your recorder(s) did not have (or had and lost) the required version of the Gemstar software. The Sony firmware update had nothing whatsoever to do with your recorder's ability to get guide data from the digital broadcast, but it did facilitate your recorder obtaining the correct software from Rovi to do so. I was able to receive guide data from the digital broadcast stream under the older versions of the firmware because I manually downloaded the correct Rovi/Gemstar software, not because of some phantom analog signal that didn't really exist. The Sony firmware does not have and cannot have anything to do with the reception of the TVGOS data stream because it does not and cannot interact with it.
post #28536 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImTheOne View Post

I thought I would wait for someone else to explain this to you. Since no one else has stepped up to do that


I thought it was explained rather well by mabuttra in post #28466

- Kerry
post #28537 of 29213
Indeed, much of the confusion of the unit is that it has two OS and two brains.....and I was never sure if the two engineering teams ever spoke or exchanged email.

I've one unit within 5 minutes of reality so I'm scheduling a few recordings and seeing how it goes. (clear qam signal no cablecard)

No sniping, fellows...this is the single greatest resource a lone HDD in the woods could have.

I love my ES 5400 Series receiver, bought tor $300 at the Sony Outlet, Three Sony TV sets, and these two DHG units, but I"m not feeling the love back.
post #28538 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryNY View Post


I thought it was explained rather well by mabuttra in post #28466

- Kerry

Many, many times. I could always count on Mark to set me straight when I made speculations that were wrong and I have never taken it personal. I've read every post, starting at #1. That includes spiffspace. It's all been said before, but for new members it's a good refresher. I'm not sure how it compares to the other data on firmware/patch level published on spiffspace, but it's not important unless you are a history buff. I'm finding time spent looking for future solutions more fun. Or is that depressing? Even if my TiVo, Sony DHG (all 4) and Magnavox (2) went to heaven, I have enough HD recorders to keep me running. Color me odd, but having everything recorded in one box is unconfortable. I'm sure more scripted shows will convert to HD in the future. Just having HD cable service doesn't always get you HD content. But the move to all digital is what has increased quality of everything. Sorry, I got off track. Back to painting.

post #28539 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImTheOne View Post

You don't seem very receptive to anything I have to say ...

Clearly you don't understand the inner workings of these recorders.

You are correct. I am not a technical wizard when it comes to these recorders, nor do I have any desire to be. I write software for a living but steer clear of hardware as much as I can. That's just my nature.

Quote: "This firmware release had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the recorder's ability to receive TVGOS data on digital channels after the digital conversion." While technically correct, the implication was that Sony did not need to release the update at all, that it was just a PR smokescreen, and it made no difference.

For the last time, for the very last time, this is what happened:

1) Receiving guide for 6+ years. Host channel 98.
2) Mediacom converted to digital.
3) Guide disappeared.
4) Installed firmware update.
5) Guide returned. Host channel 4.1.

Maybe I'm clueless, but I call that a difference.
post #28540 of 29213

I reserve all comments until I see a schematic and the source code. But I may still make mistakes.

post #28541 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by mac24 View Post

Quote: "This firmware release had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the recorder's ability to receive TVGOS data on digital channels after the digital conversion." While technically correct, the implication was that Sony did not need to release the update at all, that it was just a PR smokescreen, and it made no difference.

Perhaps a more accurate phrasing would have been something like this:

"This firmware release was not necessary for the recorder to receive TVGOS data on digital channels after the digital conversion."

- Kerry
post #28542 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeKustra View Post

I'm finding time spent looking for future solutions more fun. Or is that depressing? Even if my TiVo, Sony DHG (all 4) and Magnavox (2) went to heaven, I have enough HD recorders to keep me running. Color me odd, but having everything recorded in one box is unconfortable.

Even though I have no plans to record on the DHG anymore, if someone hacked one and offered some kind of modification / update, I might try it for fun. I am a tinkerer at heart.

- Kerry
post #28543 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by KerryNY View Post

Even though I have no plans to record on the DHG anymore, if someone hacked one and offered some kind of modification / update, I might try it for fun. I am a tinkerer at heart.

- Kerry

Although I record on the DHG with declining frequency, we use it a lot to watch live broadcasts (especially sports) while the TiVo is recording 2 shows. It's particularly handy to pause/resume when it's time to grab a sandwich (or other "interruptions"). Note: no clock required.
post #28544 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by KARCHIN View Post

GETTING CORRECT CLOCK TIME

I have 2 hdd250s. One is off most of the time. The other is on all the time. The one that is on all the time has the correct time and date. When I plugged in the one that is off all the time, after April 1, 2013, the clock was incorrect. I researched and found this site which recommended several options, none which are perfect and none which set the correct time and date.



The procedure I used was just plug the unit into power wait until it competes post then press the power on button which brings up 00:00 as time and in a few minutes displays the last known time the dvr has saved, which of course is the incorrect time.

What I discovered yesterday was instead of pressing the power on button on the front panel after the unit is plugged into power and it resets, do nothing. Wait 5 hrs. My clock magically appeared with correct time and date. I did this twice over 2 days, but times it worked.



Please try this and post a response.



I received the following note from KSWB in San Diego
Quote:
Thanks for writing in.
KSWB Fox 5 puts out ASTC compliant program guide and time info.

I'm not sure exactly the problem with the Sony DVR your purchased but we have not been contacted by Sony or any other viewers with a problem.

I would be happy to discuss particulars with you if you want to give me a call.

Thanks.

I called KSWB and discussed the issue further. They are an independent TV station [Tribune Company] that carries FOX programming. They provide a service which uses Triveni Digital equipment and software, GuideBuilder. The equipment and software is compliant with the ATSC Standard. In section 6.1, page 24 is the System Time Table (STT) protocol. It seems that the DHG responds to this time information.

Is it conceivable that these products would solve the time setting problem if they were widely available? Could this be an alternative to Rovi?

Are there any DHG users in the following Tribune Company markets also receiving the time signal?
post #28545 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotkar View Post

I received the following note from KSWB in San Diego
I called KSWB and discussed the issue further. They are an independent TV station [Tribune Company] that carries FOX programming. They provide a service which uses Triveni Digital equipment and software, GuideBuilder. The equipment and software is compliant with the ATSC Standard. In section 6.1, page 24 is the System Time Table (STT) protocol. It seems that the DHG responds to this time information.

Is it conceivable that these products would solve the time setting problem if they were widely available? Could this be an alternative to Rovi?

Are there any DHG users in the following Tribune Company markets also receiving the time signal?

I receive WGNO both OTA and on cable. I only have one of my DHG's hooked up currently. It's hooked up to the cable line only. I'll turn it on and tune to WGNO when I get home from my office, and then check for the correct time/date tomorrow. If that doesn't work I'll try hooking one of the DHG's to my antenna over the weekend.

Edit: Actually after re-reading Karchin's post, I see that I am supposed to unplug the DHG then plug it back in but NOT turn it on. So that is what I will do. But I will be surprised if the DHG searches out and finds the PSIP time . . .
Edited by WS65711 - 6/6/13 at 1:04pm
post #28546 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by slotkar View Post


Are there any DHG users in the following Tribune Company markets also receiving the time signal?

Of course there's no way to know if any of the other Tribune-owned stations have that same equipment installed. When I get a chance, I'll haul one of my DHGs out of the garage and connect it tuned to KTLA and see what happens.

BTW, how was it determined where Karchin got time from? Last I saw posted, we were wondering if he was getting a signal from Mexico.
Edited by Possumgirl - 6/6/13 at 1:08pm
post #28547 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Possumgirl View Post

.... I'll haul one of my DHGs out of the garage and connect it tuned to KTLA and see what happens..

The "instructions" say not to even turn the DHG on. Just "plug it and leave it be for 5 hours and the clock magically appears". We'll see . . .
post #28548 of 29213
^^^
We both know that's not going to happen. biggrin.gif
post #28549 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post


The "instructions" say not to even turn the DHG on. Just "plug it and leave it be for 5 hours and the clock magically appears". We'll see . . .

If that works I want you to buy my next lottery ticket.

post #28550 of 29213
^^
I just finished unplugging it and plugging it back in. The "Welcome" message was on the FPD as I headed back downstairs...
I quit buying lottery tickets a l-o-n-g time ago . . . tongue.gif
post #28551 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImTheOne View Post

[...]
In order to access the guide data in the digital signal (or any TVGOS data for that matter), the recorder needs to be running version 08.06.44 of the Gemstar software.
[...]

That statement is not true. No patches were required to access the digital guide data. All the TVGOS data was digital. If the DHG could not get digital guide data, then it wouldn't have been able to get any of the digital data. To the DHG, there was no difference between the different types of data (clock data, zip code packets, patches, guide data, etc.) it was all TVG1 data. The 08.05.40, and 08.06.44 patches had nothing to do with allowing reception of digital data. I was able to get a grid with listings without any patches installed (see attached pictures). Those pictures were taken with the 1.2.21 firmware installed (08.01.71 TVGOS software), but the 08.01.42 TVGOS software was no different. It didn't happen a lot but it did happen. It was pretty common for mine to get a grid, and listings with only the 08.05.40 patch loaded.

Picture1.JPG 114k .JPG file
Picture2.JPG 56k .JPG file

Mark
post #28552 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Possumgirl View Post

^^^
We both know that's not going to happen. biggrin.gif

Why not? wink.gif
post #28553 of 29213
^^
At 5:00am this morning there was still no Front Panel Clock. I turned on the DHG and TV only to find there was still no screen clock either. Karchin must have some other form of magic going on at his location . . . eek.gif
post #28554 of 29213

And now for something completely different:

 

Last Sunday night set the clock via tape. Still using .21, full lineup and CBS HD mapped to the guide's analog channel. Set to record Letterman at 11:36pm daily.

 

11:40pm last night noticed no red light and clock on FP was --:--. No action, I went to bed.

 

This morning I hit power on and 1080i displayed for about five seconds then analog 16 TWC and clock displayed. Clock was 3:45pm yesterday and 16 is where I left DHG yesterday morning.

 

Checked recording list and Letterman was not recorded. No change in the schedule.

 

Plan: full factory restore, zipcode to 00000, set the clock and see what happens.


Edited by JoeKustra - 6/7/13 at 6:20am
post #28555 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

^^
At 5:00am this morning there was still no Front Panel Clock. I turned on the DHG and TV only to find there was still no screen clock either. Karchin must have some other form of magic going on at his location . . . eek.gif

Surely this was not a surprise. biggrin.gif

I went back and read the Sony thread where Karchin posted that his clock set channel was 1:69-0. He was asked what channel actually appeared if he tried tuning 1:69. He never responded, but JoeKustra posted "KSWB".

So Joe, what I'd like to know is how you came up with that? Just because RF69 was KSWB in the analog days doesn't mean Cox Cable uses that frequency does it? And even if they do, don't cable companies carry more than one channel per frequency? Couldn't KSWB and XETV be sharing a frequency?
post #28556 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Possumgirl View Post


Surely this was not a surprise. biggrin.gif

I went back and read the Sony thread where Karchin posted that his clock set channel was 1:69-0. He was asked what channel actually appeared if he tried tuning 1:69. He never responded, but JoeKustra posted "KSWB".

So Joe, what I'd like to know is how you came up with that? Just because RF69 was KSWB in the analog days doesn't mean Cox Cable uses that frequency does it? And even if they do, don't cable companies carry more than one channel per frequency? Couldn't KSWB and XETV be sharing a frequency?

I may have been confused by the post about the Sony forum :

http://www.avsforum.com/t/537711/sony-dhg-hdd250-500-official-thread/28150_50#post_23214787

 

Cable feeds carry many channels on one frequency. Usually it's one HD and two or three SD, or about 10 SD. Music channels can have over 40.

 

I can't speculate on the physical frequency used by Cox for KSWB. Without a device with good diagnostics it is impossible. I have found that a clear QAM channel and it's cable card mirror will have different channel numbers but use the same physical frequency. My cable feed just published almost all their QAM frequencies: http://www.secv.com/cdocs/qam_sun.pdf

 

Or I could just be wrong. It has happened before. I think. smile.gif

post #28557 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

^^
At 5:00am this morning there was still no Front Panel Clock. I turned on the DHG and TV only to find there was still no screen clock either. Karchin must have some other form of magic going on at his location . . . eek.gif

Perhaps a chicken needs to be sacrificed? biggrin.gif

post #28558 of 29213
Joe, thanks for clarifying that there was no real basis for thinking 1:69-0 had anything to do with KSWB. Back in April, pretty much the only place Karchin's clock set could have been coming from was XETV and since Cox carries both channels I'm going with that answer. smile.gif

Another red herring bites the dust. wink.gif
post #28559 of 29213
Update: It's still been all smooth sailing with the DHG in my household. My personal Excel works extremely well to coordinate all my shows and showtimes.

So far the clock drift I was fearing has not showed up yet. How many months has it been since Rovi died? Still on the same DHG time differential as before, so I have not had to re-edit my schedule start/end times yet.

In fact, I've changed them due to the new season's shows coming on, before I had to due to clock drift.

I actually have come to find the new "Unknown" grouping to be a blessing. Who knew? All the many 'maybe' but mostly don't care shows like AM talk shows, local news, national news, PBS news, PBS local daily shows, Dr Oz, etc... shows that I MIGHT want to watch SOMETIMES (big news event happens, etc) are mixed with the fewer true "must see" shows. Now I watch the few "must sees", and can in one key click delete ALL the don't care shows to make room. This alone is worth dumping Rovi. Before with Rovi and umpteen don't care show titles to babysit each day, it was a pain. Delete daily 30 min local news, delete daily local new on other channel, delete national news... etc, etc... one by one by each show title. Now it's watch the one or two shows I want per day, and the rest go poof in one "delete Unknown". Perfect. I would have paid for that time-saving feature. Who knew?

So far we and the little mighty DHG are soldiering on... and we continue to be quite happy with it post-Rovi. Hope everyone else is experiencing the same joy too...
Edited by teleskier - 6/7/13 at 6:32pm
post #28560 of 29213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Possumgirl View Post

Joe, thanks for clarifying that there was no real basis for thinking 1:69-0 had anything to do with KSWB. Back in April, pretty much the only place Karchin's clock set could have been coming from was XETV and since Cox carries both channels I'm going with that answer. smile.gif

Another red herring bites the dust. wink.gif

I don't think so...

According to KARCHIN on the 'Sony dhg-hdd250/dhg-hdd500 Sony DVR's' site:
Quote:
Post 291: WELL THIS SITE SEEMS TO **** OUT MY ANSWERS

THE CLOCK CHANNEL IS ONE COLON SIXTY NINE DASH ZERO.
and
Quote:
Post 292: The failing clock channel was the same one colon sixty nine dash zero

His information aligns very well with TV IV information: KSWB-TV which is channel 69 virtual not XETV which is channel 23 digital or 6 virtual.

Just the facts.
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