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Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov - Page 2

post #31 of 6249
Hopefully pictures of these two TVs will be available soon.

A couple of questions (which I'm not sure anyone can answer yet):
1.)is Sony dropping the XBR designation then? I would have thought that the SXRD would hit the XBR line after tricking down from the Qualia.

2.)Seems like the SXRD chips in these TVs are different from the one in the Qualia. What *might* that mean in terms of quality? (I'm not real techincal when it comes to .61", what does this imply for quality)

Regards,
Dan
post #32 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post

2.)Seems like the SXRD chips in these TVs are different from the one in the Qualia. What *might* that mean in terms of quality? (I'm not real techincal when it comes to .61", what does this imply for quality)

Regards,
Dan

It doesn't mean a lot other than the chips are smaller and should be cheaper to make, and will need a less expensive optics engine to go with them.

The only real different from a performance point is the higher CR and the slightly lower fill factor / aperture ratio.
post #33 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50 View Post

Hopefully pictures of these two TVs will be available soon.

A couple of questions (which I'm not sure anyone can answer yet):
1.)is Sony dropping the XBR designation then? I would have thought that the SXRD would hit the XBR line after tricking down from the Qualia.

2.)Seems like the SXRD chips in these TVs are different from the one in the Qualia. What *might* that mean in terms of quality? (I'm not real techincal when it comes to .61", what does this imply for quality)

Regards,
Dan

The smaller chips should be a bit less light efficient due to "etendue," something on the order of about 20% to 30% less efficient based on the sizes of their original and a .6-inch die. The amount is a function of their illumination system including the lamp, but generally a smaller die will be less light efficient (but not by as much as the area reduction). Still a 3 panel LCOS at .6 inches should be as light efficient as a .8-inch single chip DLP (including the polarized light issues for LCOS) and much more light efficient than a .55-inch wobble mirror 720P DLP (a lot depends on the exact size and illumination systems).

The optics should be significantly cheaper in the long run (once ramped to production) with the smaller die since they will require much less glass.

I would think that making the LCOS devices should be optically easier/higher-yielding/better-quality with the smaller device. So in the long run the plusses outweight the minuses. Note that other LCOS devices are in the .7-inch range our about half way between Sony's Qualia 006 and the disclosed .6-inch panel.

I expect that in the next two years, the battle for rear projection will be between larger single chip DLP's with wobble mirrors and smaller 3-Chip LCOS displays. I think transmissive HTPS will loose out due to it scaling problems and the resultant cost of the optics to support the larger panel sizes. If LCOS companies do their jobs right, they will be be able to deliver 1080P displays at about the same cost as they can do 720P displays. They should be very competitive with DLP and will not have the Rainbow Effect and have "true" 1080P resolution (no wobble mirror). Anyway, the next couple of years look to be interesting.
post #34 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddisplay View Post

I expect that in the next two years, the battle for rear projection will be between larger single chip DLP's with wobble mirrors and smaller 3-Chip LCOS displays. I think transmissive HTPS will loose out due to it scaling problems and the resultant cost of the optics to support the larger panel sizes. If LCOS companies do their jobs right, they will be be able to deliver 1080P displays at about the same cost as they can do 720P displays. They should be very competitive with DLP and will not have the Rainbow Effect and have "true" 1080P resolution (no wobble mirror). Anyway, the next couple of years look to be interesting.

What about the convergence errors inherent in a 3-chip design? A single chip dlp has none of this, but does have the rainbow problem (at least for some people). Seems like there is a plus/minus for each technology.
post #35 of 6249
"I think transmissive HTPS will loose out due to it scaling problems and the resultant cost of the optics to support the larger panel sizes."

Sony and Epson sure seem to beg to differ. Tremendous innovation in HTPS LCD is coming soon.
post #36 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

What about the convergence errors inherent in a 3-chip design? A single chip dlp has none of this, but does have the rainbow problem (at least for some people). Seems like there is a plus/minus for each technology.

Sony seems to be able to nail it pretty accurately on their RP LCD TVs, so I don't think the SXRD chips will be any more problematic.
post #37 of 6249
Can someone please post a link or fill me in on the drawbacks of LCOS technology? I'm aware of the advantages and drawbacks of DLP and LCD (contrast and refresh rates) but not very familiar with LCOS. I've heard other companies have tried LCOS but were unsuccessful.

Thanks for any input.
post #38 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

What about the convergence errors inherent in a 3-chip design? A single chip dlp has none of this, but does have the rainbow problem (at least for some people). Seems like there is a plus/minus for each technology.

Convergence with microdisplays is a solved problem. The devices are glued in place. It can be done with cheap labor and once glued, it does not shift. It is not like the problems with big bulky RP CRT's.

The issue is the cost of the color splitting and re-combining optics but those are coming down with volume. By going to .6-inch panels, the cost of the optics will be driven down further.
post #39 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

"I think transmissive HTPS will loose out due to it scaling problems and the resultant cost of the optics to support the larger panel sizes."

Sony and Epson sure seem to beg to differ. Tremendous innovation in HTPS LCD is coming soon.

Sony seems to be advancing on both HTPS and LCOS but appears to prefer LCOS for the future. They seem to be focused on LCOS for 1080P and above resolutions.

Epson is certainly focused on HTPS and had a nice looking 1080P display at CES. But they are at about a 50% aperture with a .9-inch panel. I wouldn't be surprise to see them enter into LCOS.
post #40 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddisplay View Post

Convergence with microdisplays is a solved problem. The devices are glued in place. It can be done with cheap labor and once glued, it does not shift. It is not like the problems with big bulky RP CRT's.

The issue is the cost of the color splitting and re-combining optics but those are coming down with volume. By going to .6-inch panels, the cost of the optics will be driven down further.

I'm sure you know more about this that I do. I was only thinking about some of the reports I've seen about the JVC dila's having such problems.
post #41 of 6249
so what features will Sony omit in these new SXRD tv's that are currently found in the qualia 006 ? I'm sure they'd omit some to justify the price difference between 5-6k and 14k
post #42 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthJersey View Post

so what features will Sony omit in these new SXRD tv's that are currently found in the qualia 006 ? I'm sure they'd omit some to justify the price difference between 5-6k and 14k

From the feature list Lew Black posted there was no i.Link or 1394 Firewire connection. But these are prelimimary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

Folks, I missed something at the introduction to the new Grand Wegas. (This is a 70 page Adobe document that covers the phasing in of new Sony products). Hope this helps a bit more. Notice that the new SXRD sets are considered Grand Wegas. Lew

Wega Gate
Cinema Black Pro
PAP
MS Playback
PC Input
HDMI x2
TOS Link
Dolby Digital
TruSurround XT
Steady Sound
WEGA Engine HD
132W Lamp
0.61 3 SXRD
ATSC/POD
Analog TN x2
SXRD
50/60


The layout was weird so this is the best I can do with cut and paste.
post #43 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by braidkid View Post

Can someone please post a link or fill me in on the drawbacks of LCOS technology? I'm aware of the advantages and drawbacks of DLP and LCD (contrast and refresh rates) but not very familiar with LCOS. I've heard other companies have tried LCOS but were unsuccessful.

Thanks for any input.

Anyone?
post #44 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by braidkid View Post

Anyone?

I don't think we can give you a consistant answer for different attempts at this technology. The biggest issue has been yield in manufacturing the chips. Too many chips were defective. The JVC units have poor black level, great brightness, but this could be from using too high wattage a bulb. The Sony Qualia has excellent blacks, better than any other digital set I have seen. They may be doing something different in their LCOS implimentation. We shall see what these new sets look like this fall. I expect to see good black levels, hopefully close to the Qualia. Lew
post #45 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

I don't think we can give you a consistant answer for different attempts at this technology. The biggest issue has been yield in manufacturing the chips. Too many chips were defective. The JVC units have poor black level, great brightness, but this could be from using too high wattage a bulb. The Sony Qualia has excellent blacks, better than any other digital set I have seen. They may be doing something different in their LCOS implimentation. We shall see what these new sets look like this fall. I expect to see good black levels, hopefully close to the Qualia. Lew


The JVC 1080P's black levels weren't far off the Qualia's at the CES, but we'll have to wait to see the production models this fall....
post #46 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

I don't think we can give you a consistant answer for different attempts at this technology. The biggest issue has been yield in manufacturing the chips. Too many chips were defective. The JVC units have poor black level, great brightness, but this could be from using too high wattage a bulb. The Sony Qualia has excellent blacks, better than any other digital set I have seen. They may be doing something different in their LCOS implimentation. We shall see what these new sets look like this fall. I expect to see good black levels, hopefully close to the Qualia. Lew


Would it be a stretch to say we might see better blacks than the Qualia? When describing the chips that will be used in the new sets it listed a higher CR than the Qualia but a slightly less fill factor. If you also look at the sets of features it has, cinema black pro is listed. Could they be using a Iris in these new sets like the new 3LCD will have. I am hoping for this and HDMI inputs that will accept 1080p for blue ray/PS3. If so, then this will be the TV I purchase in October. Lets hope.
post #47 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by gazelle View Post

The JVC 1080P's black levels weren't far off the Qualia's at the CES, but we'll have to wait to see the production models this fall....

Good point. All of the 1080p sets are claiming better black levels. Lew
post #48 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv4 View Post

Would it be a stretch to say we might see better blacks than the Qualia? When describing the chips that will be used in the new sets it listed a higher CR than the Qualia but a slightly less fill factor. If you also look at the sets of features it has, cinema black pro is listed. Could they be using a Iris in these new sets like the new 3LCD will have. I am hoping for this and HDMI inputs that will accept 1080p for blue ray/PS3. If so, then this will be the TV I purchase in October. Lets hope.

I hope you are right, though I sure like the idea of better blacks through better basic performance of the chips. The auto iris will help in all dark or all light scenes, but will still have trouble in high contrast scenes. Lew
post #49 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

I hope you are right, though I sure like the idea of better blacks through better basic performance of the chips. The auto iris will help in all dark or all light scenes, but will still have trouble in high contrast scenes. Lew

This not quite accurate. The auto irises do not operate in bright scenes, nor do they have trouble in high contrast scenes. The iris only activates in dark scenes, to lower the black floor, and extend the dynamic range.

They can't increase the intrascene CR beyond that of the native device, but for the current generation of pjs, the limiting factor for intrascene CR will be the room, and not the device.

As anyone who has seen the Sony HS51 will agree, it is extremely effective.
post #50 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv4 View Post

Would it be a stretch to say we might see better blacks than the Qualia?


We already have, and a better contrast ratio (3500:1) and response time (4ms).

http://gom5.com/hdtv.htm
post #51 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sycore View Post

We already have, and a better contrast ratio (3500:1) and response time (4ms).

http://gom5.com/hdtv.htm

Please tell me that "TV GUIDE" is just a sticker that comes off.

Are there hard numbers for $$$ and availability on the LG LCoS yet?
post #52 of 6249
So the main drawback of LCOS technology has been contrast? What about refresh rates or burn in?
post #53 of 6249
As is the case with DLPs, LCOS TVs suffer no burn-in...

As for response times:

http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/3947

Quote:
Sony's SXRD liquid crystal materials utilize an innovative molecular material, which is vertically aligned to the cell substrate, in contrast to the twisted Nematic liquid crystal commonly found in other projection devices. According to Baxter, this new material ensures improved optical performance and enhanced driveability even in such a thin cell gap. The unique combination of the new material and the thin cell gap results in exceptional black level performance, in addition to a rapid response time of less than five milliseconds. This is nearly a three-fold increase over conventional projector contrast levels.


Really, LCOS is a very nice tech.....the problem is, it is newer (or should I say, less mature) than someting like DLP so they are are further down the improvements curve on stuff like contrast ratio (compared to DLPs)...

The biggest issue with LCOS displays has been figuring out how the hell to manufacture them(and many have tried).....

The only onse who seem to have a good handle on LCOS manufacturing issues are JVC and Sony....
post #54 of 6249
Ok, so besides 1080p, what picture benifit would these LCOS sets have over sony's new A10 models coming out this summer?
post #55 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sycore View Post

We already have, and a better contrast ratio (3500:1) and response time (4ms).

http://gom5.com/hdtv.htm

Sony's new SXRD chips at 5,000:1 PCR have already bettered that CR mark.

Technology moves on!
post #56 of 6249
If these new SXRD tv's have the same PQ as the Qualia, I'll definitely be buying a 60" one this fall/winter. Then I'll just have to figure out how to get rid of the 300lb Sony 40" XBR beast in my living room....
post #57 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

This not quite accurate. The auto irises do not operate in bright scenes, nor do they have trouble in high contrast scenes. The iris only activates in dark scenes, to lower the black floor, and extend the dynamic range.

They can't increase the intrascene CR beyond that of the native device, but for the current generation of pjs, the limiting factor for intrascene CR will be the room, and not the device.

As anyone who has seen the Sony HS51 will agree, it is extremely effective.

You are correct. I meant to say that the iris can't help the LCD technology in high contrast scenes. For me, this is one of the situations where I find LCD lacking. You have a brunette who is slightly shaded in a well lit scene and don't see individual hairs on his/her head. The iris won't do anything for this problem. I have seen the HS51 and it does wonderful things. I have high hopes for the A10 series, but find the new SXRD sets more intriguing because the technology has inherently better blacks and contrast, not because they will use the auto iris. Lew
post #58 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Sony's new SXRD chips at 5,000:1 PCR have already bettered that CR mark.

Technology moves on!

You can't take these C/R figures seriously. They are based on full on, full off. Any technology that is transmissive, like LCD, lets light through when it is on, but gives great black when it is off . DLP suffers from internal light reflections. LCOS must reflect some light where we are supposed to have perfect black when it is on. Turn it off and you have a much darker screen.

At Runco's website they list an 1800/1 C/R for full on-off on one of their DLP projectors. They also use a home theater spec that is honest and depends on the projector being calibrated to 6500 degrees K. The projector has to be on for the test. Contrast ratio measured this way:156/1. Refreshing (pun intended) to have such honesty in a spec.

So, if anyone takes these specs seriously I have this dandy, 4,000 watt receiver I will sell you for just $199 Lew
post #59 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

I have this dandy, 4,000 watt receiver I will sell you for just $199 Lew



Are we talking used or new? 5.1 or 7.1, and does it have any HDMI inputs. This might be just what I was looking for. PM with details
post #60 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonHoyaFan View Post

Sony's new SXRD chips at 5,000:1 PCR have already bettered that CR mark.

I'm not sure if that other number was system on/off CR or chip, but we should be careful not to confuse the two. Of course, if Sony uses a dynamic iris they can get higher than their chip CR, but otherwise it will definitely be lower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

You can't take these C/R figures seriously.

If you don't understand how they relate to real world video then you can't, but if you do understand then you can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

They are based on full on, full off.

For systems they are based on 100 IRE and 0 (or 7.5) IRE. Off does not mean the projector is turned off, or there wouldn't even be any reason for the spec since it would basically be infinite:1 in all cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

Any technology that is transmissive, like LCD, lets light through when it is on, but gives great black when it is off . DLP suffers from internal light reflections. LCOS must reflect some light where we are supposed to have perfect black when it is on. Turn it off and you have a much darker screen.

And no matter what technology it is, if you know the white level then the on/off CR gives you the absolute black level exactly (simple math). Talking about why it is at that level is a different matter, since you already have the number at that point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

At Runco's website they list an 1800/1 C/R for full on-off on one of their DLP projectors. They also use a home theater spec that is honest and depends on the projector being calibrated to 6500 degrees K. The projector has to be on for the test. Contrast ratio measured this way:156/1. Refreshing (pun intended) to have such honesty in a spec.

People seem to get pretty confused about contrast ratio. Think of it like speed (MPH). You can have top speed through cones and top speed in a straight line. They are both speed, but neither one is fake. Just like 0-60 and 0-100 times are both times, but it doesn't mean that one is fake. And just like neither on/off CR or ANSI CR is fake. They both help you determine what instantaneous CRs you will get across the range of images (along with the blackout level) and either one can be the weak link in any one image. Here is a tool for seeing the instantaneous CRs that result from different on/off and ANSI CRs (along with room reflections) for different checkerboard levels (the dark always being video 16). I discussed this here. If people want to see how different on/offs effect the instantaneous CRs with checkerboards like 10/0 IRE and 5/0 IRE (relating to dark scenes), then they can just plug in different on/off CRs and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

So, if anyone takes these specs seriously I have this dandy, 4,000 watt receiver I will sell you for just $199 Lew

If you mean because they exaggerate their numbers (just like exaggerating lumens) then I understand, but if you mean that on/off CR is not real and doesn't relate to real world video, then you might want to read up some more.

--Darin
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