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Sony SXRD 50" and 60" - Oct/Nov - Page 3

post #61 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddisplay View Post

Sony seems to be advancing on both HTPS and LCOS but appears to prefer LCOS for the future. They seem to be focused on LCOS for 1080P and above resolutions.

Epson is certainly focused on HTPS and had a nice looking 1080P display at CES. But they are at about a 50% aperture with a .9-inch panel. I wouldn't be surprise to see them enter into LCOS.

Why did Sony announce a whole new generation of HTPS parts with record performance then? They are clearly committed to both, one cheaper than the other.

Why does everyone at AVS think everything is mutually exclusive? Samsung makes LCD >>and<< plasma >>and<< is commited to DLP.
post #62 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

...Any technology that is transmissive, like LCD, lets light through when it is on, but gives great black when it is off . DLP suffers from internal light reflections. LCOS must reflect some light where we are supposed to have perfect black when it is on. Turn it off and you have a much darker screen.

DLP may have internal light reflections but from what I understand LCOS is not better. The current JVCs black levels are inferior to the HD2+ DLPs. And while I haven't seen the Qualia or the unreleased Sonys Sxrds, With manurfacturers listing 5000:1 as the contrast ratio I would expect Sxrd and the new 1080DLPs to have similar black levels. I guess we'll have to wait about 4 months to find out .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lew Black View Post

...So, if anyone takes these specs seriously I have this dandy, 4,000 watt receiver I will sell you for just $199 Lew

Some manufacturers really overdoit with specs. You know the old Kraco car amps that put out 1000 watts of distortion . But judging from the past, the 61" Samsung HLN had a contrast ratio of 1000:1 or 1500:1(can't remember which) whereas most 60" HD2+ DLPs have a contrast ration of about 2000:1-2500:1 and you can tell a major difference in brightness and black levels. Though this number doesn't tell it all, it is the best guideline to give us a general idea of what what to eexpect from black/white levels from TVs not yet released.
post #63 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uninvited Guest View Post

Please tell me that "TV GUIDE" is just a sticker that comes off.

Are there hard numbers for $$$ and availability on the LG LCoS yet?

That is the LG's current 62" DLP chassis, it is just a pre-production LCOS test unit. The 62" and 71" LCOS sets will have a sleeker design.
post #64 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by sycore View Post

That is the LG's current 62" DLP chassis, it is just a pre-production LCOS test unit. The 62" and 71" LCOS sets will have a sleeker design.

sycore, do you know where the speakers will be located on the LG LCOS sets?
post #65 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

DLP may have internal light reflections but from what I understand LCOS is not better. The current JVCs black levels are inferior to the HD2+ DLPs. And while I haven't seen the Qualia or the unreleased Sonys Sxrds, With manurfacturers listing 5000:1 as the contrast ratio I would expect Sxrd and the new 1080DLPs to have similar black levels. I guess we'll have to wait about 4 months to find out .

JVC's DILA implementation is pretty close to piss poor.

They can't make their chips cheap enough, so they skimped and tried to cut cost at nearly every other aspect of the design to compete with DLPs on price. They used cheap optics (all the chromatic abberation and convergence problems reported). They used a cheap analog section. The set has a lot of internal reflections.

So, it's a bit of a misnomer to proclaim LCOS is not better simply because JVC couldn't make a good one at the same price as a DLP.
post #66 of 6249
Will the new SXRD chip also be used in a 70" model or would the reduced fill factor be a problem in the larger size? Any news on the timetable for a non-Qualia 70" or are they more likely to reduce the price of the current model?

Any word on whether the sets will be able to accept 1080p signals?
post #67 of 6249
Quote:


Ok, so besides 1080p, what picture benifit would these LCOS sets have over sony's new A10 models coming out this summer?

Well, the A10 models are LCDs..

These new SXRDs should have a 90% fill rate (compared to ~60% with LCDs, IIRC) so you are going to get much smaller interpixel gaps/screen door with LCOS/SXRD compared to the A10s....of all the microdisplay tech currently out there (LCD/DLP/LCOS) LCOS have the smallest interpixel gaps of them all...

I am not sure how fast the response times are on the A10 LCDs but the <5ms respone time with SXRD might be another advantage....

Several Qualia 004/006 owners have raved about the shadow detail performance of their TVs so that (along with contrast ratio) might be another advantage....

I also believe SXRDs are notable for their color accuracy (wide gamut?) but how much of that is attributed to the Xenon bulbs used in the current Qualias and how much is attributed to the basic design of the SXRD technology is anyone's guess at this point...

One thing is for sure, these cheaper SXRDs will not use an expensive Xenon bulb so those lucious reds everybody raves about with the Qualias will probably be a distant memory....

LCOS is a much newer display technology compared to LCDs and even DLPs.....the trick has been getting decent blacks/CR performance and manufacturing the damn things

Quote:


Any word on whether the sets will be able to accept 1080p signals?

Well consider these facts:

The Qualia 004 R2 will accept a 1080p signal via HDMI...

The Sony PlayStation 3 will output 1080p via HDMI

These new SXRDs have dual HDMI ins (to match the dual HDMI out of a PS3)

IMO, there is no good reason to omit the abilty to accept 1080p signal on these sets.
post #68 of 6249
Just to keep in mind with regards to the Xenon lamp comment about the "reds". The Qualia 006 uses a 200W UHP Lamp. Only the Qualia 004 uses a Xenon lamp.

I just wanted to add that for clarification.
post #69 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

Well, the A10 models are LCDs..

Sony is not helping with the model numbers are they?

To clarify:

KDS-R50A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD
KDS-R60A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD

KDF-E55A20 1366 x 768 LCD
KDF-E60A20 1366 x 768 LCD

KDF-E42A10 1280 x 720 LCD
KDF-E50A10 1280 x 720 LCD
post #70 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post


The Qualia 004 R2 will accept a 1080p signal via HDMI...

Both the Qualia 04 and the HS51 currently accept 1080p24sf which is ideal for film source content, and also happens to be a HDTV standard.

The rumored Qualia 004 R2 is said to accept 1080p60 input. Of course we will then anxiously await sources...
post #71 of 6249
Could someone explain why a smaller chip requires less/ cheaper optics?
post #72 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

I also believe SXRDs are notable for their color accuracy (wide gamut?) but how much of that is attributed to the Xenon bulbs used in the current Qualias and how much is attributed to the basic design of the SXRD technology is anyone's guess at this point...

Could it be possible to swap one of these Xenon bulbs into the new SXRD's? Seems like once the original bulb burned out, this would be an easy swap?
post #73 of 6249
If we are going to start guessing about bulbs and cost, I have to say that considering the tv's will cost around 5k USD, if they use the same qualia bulb it wont be all that out of place and if the color raves really are thanks to the bulb then I hope they leave it alone.

http://www.sonystyle.ca/commerce/ser...=n32050n100052
Thats the CA site so I assume that to be CA dollar, so around $400USD seems fine to me. =)
post #74 of 6249
Rogo, (MythBuster)

KDS-R50A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD
KDS-R60A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD

Do you think that these sets will actually make it to market by Oct/Nov, considering there is so little info on them right now?

Will they have a 1080p/60 input?

Fact or Myth?
=======================================================

What was the real reason for the HDMI bottleneck with the new 1080p sets?

Some say 1080p is not in the HDMI spec, but it is as an option. So why did the manufacturers of the upcoming 1080p sets not exercise this option?

I have also heard that Silicon Image cut corners by meeting the barest requirements of the spec in their current HDMI chips. But if this is the case what HDMI chip is Sony using for the Qualia upgrades?

Others have mentioned that there are no 1080p sources, therefore no 1080p HDMI. This is complete bunk, the PC is a 1080p source with some 1080p content.

DVI can handle 1080p/60, but HDMI currently cannot. Does HDCP have anything to do with this? Is Hollywood slowing down the 1080p/60 approval process pending some new, more intrusive DRM?
(I do not understand the limitation when DVI and HDMI are so similar with the exception of HDCP and audio.)

Thanks,

J.T.
post #75 of 6249
Quote:


Others have mentioned that there are no 1080p sources, therefore no 1080p HDMI. This is complete bunk, the PC is a 1080p source with some 1080p content.

Not only that, but the PlayStation 3 was quoted by Sony to output 1080p games....so you could potentialy have some compelling 1920 x 1080 progressive content there too...

Also, BRD/HD-DVD movies (some? most? all?) wll also be sourced @ 1080p30 too so it it just a matter of deinerlacing 1080i or upscaling 720p, if this is what we are to be "stuck" with concerning BRD/HD-DVD player video ouputs...

BTW, how do the Sony DRC chips compare to the DCDi chips in the areas of scaling and de-interlacing???


Also, I read in another thread that Silicon Image are to release the Sil 1771/1772 HDMI 1.2 reciever/transmitter chips which have enough bandwidth(165Mhz, I believe?) for full 1080p/60fps
post #76 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Could someone explain why a smaller chip requires less/ cheaper optics?

Because The physical lenses are smaller. Therefore they are easier to make and cost less.

Compare the lens of a small digital point and shoot (which uses a small chip) to a digital SLR's lenses (which uses a large chip). It's the same idea. Larger chips need larger lenses and optics.
post #77 of 6249
All the talk about bulbs, I think everybody is missing the 132w lamp note in the preliminary specs we have. This is the same wattage bulb in the XS series.

Wega Gate
Cinema Black Pro
PAP
MS Playback
PC Input
HDMI x2
TOS Link
Dolby Digital
TruSurround XT
Steady Sound
WEGA Engine HD
132W Lamp
0.61 3 SXRD
ATSC/POD
Analog TN x2
SXRD
50/60


There will be a lot of unhappy campers around here if you think we are getting a slightly smaller Qualia for $4k & $5k. Think enhanced XS series. Look at the specs above. No iLink (1394), 132w lamp (Q006 is 200w), what else is this missing from the Qualia?
post #78 of 6249
At least the lamps will be cheaper to replace. Does the lamp really impact PQ that much? The greater wattage of the Qualia lamp may be due to it having about 30% more screen size to light up.
post #79 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by KLee View Post

Well, the A10 models are LCDs..

I believe Sony denotes display technology with the model prefix, and features with the suffix. Thus, KP denotes rear projection CRT, KDF rear projection LCD, KDS rear projection SXRD, KV direct view CRT, KVL direct view LCD, KE/KDE Direct view plasma. Anything after the dash denotes size and featureset. Exceptions exist but this has been the rule.
post #80 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by empire_of_one View Post

At least the lamps will be cheaper to replace. Does the lamp really impact PQ that much? The greater wattage of the Qualia lamp may be due to it having about 30% more screen size to light up.

I doubt it. The 42we610, 50we610/655 and 60/70XBR950 use the same lamp (the 120 watt xl-2100).
post #81 of 6249
This set doesn't have to live up to the Qualia. It only has to compete with other 1080p sets in the same price range. It should do so with no problem.
post #82 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by empire_of_one View Post

At least the lamps will be cheaper to replace. Does the lamp really impact PQ that much? The greater wattage of the Qualia lamp may be due to it having about 30% more screen size to light up.

There are several factors that have to balance together. The brightness of the lamp will establish you maximum brightness that the TV could ever achieve. Then you subtract from that highest point for every item that gets put between you and the lamp. The SXRD chip loses a little light through reflection. Every optic lense and mirror, even the transmisivity of the screen being projected upon will subtract from the original brightest white-point. Too bright and you blow out the highlights and get grey blacks. Not bright enough and you get black crush and grey clouds.

All of these variables have to be balanced by the engineers developing the television to meet a price-point/feature-set established by a non-engineer bean counter. It's impossible for me to say how dramatic a lower wattage lamp effect will be, but you have the possibility of greater dynamic range (highlight to shadow) with a brighter light source coupled with an imager capable choking the light off when rendering darkness.
post #83 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by UUronl View Post

This set doesn't have to live up to the Qualia. It only has to compete with other 1080p sets in the same price range. It should do so with no problem.

Don't be so sure about that. I think the coming Sony SXRD's might have some trouble developing into anything but a niche market for this year, anyway. By late fall when all the manufacturer's 1080P DLP's, D-ILA's and LCOS lines are out competition for market share will be fierce. Street prices for 54"-58" 1080P sets will be well under 3K and 60"-64" models won't be very much over 3K. Sony will either have to drop their eventual street prices substantially from where they are anticipated to be or have a tremendous quality advantage over all other lines to become a mass market seller - -
post #84 of 6249
"Does the lamp really impact PQ that much? "

Yes. The color spectrum coming from a lamp can be very different depending upon the lamp technology. The Xenon bulbs used in the Qualia can allow for the reproduction of colors a UHP bulb can't offer.
post #85 of 6249
DLP units seem very sensitive to vertical viewing angle. Does anyone know how Sony SXRD does in that regard?
post #86 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinTurboZX View Post

This sounds really exciting, something worth replacing my CRT with. Keep us posted.

While 1920*1080 LCOS is exciting remember the bait and switch tactic Sony played on the pricing of the Qualia 006. A price of $10K was widely spoke of, but then like magic it was released at $13K. Beware!
Will these new Sony set accepts the 1920*1080 output from the Sony Play Station 3 cell computer?
post #87 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericlhyman View Post

Will the new SXRD chip also be used in a 70" model or would the reduced fill factor be a problem in the larger size? Any news on the timetable for a non-Qualia 70" or are they more likely to reduce the price of the current model?


To add to your question, if someone was wanting a 70" set, how does the combined difference in die size and fill factor affect picture quality?
post #88 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveCanem View Post

Rogo, (MythBuster)

KDS-R50A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD
KDS-R60A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD

Do you think that these sets will actually make it to market by Oct/Nov, considering there is so little info on them right now?

Will they have a 1080p/60 input?

Fact or Myth?
=======================================================

What was the real reason for the HDMI bottleneck with the new 1080p sets?

Some say 1080p is not in the HDMI spec, but it is as an option. So why did the manufacturers of the upcoming 1080p sets not exercise this option?

I have also heard that Silicon Image cut corners by meeting the barest requirements of the spec in their current HDMI chips. But if this is the case what HDMI chip is Sony using for the Qualia upgrades?

Others have mentioned that there are no 1080p sources, therefore no 1080p HDMI. This is complete bunk, the PC is a 1080p source with some 1080p content.

DVI can handle 1080p/60, but HDMI currently cannot. Does HDCP have anything to do with this? Is Hollywood slowing down the 1080p/60 approval process pending some new, more intrusive DRM?
(I do not understand the limitation when DVI and HDMI are so similar with the exception of HDCP and audio.)

Thanks,

J.T.

Well it is so nice to read someone else who is capable of critical analysis and thinking!

1920*1080/60fps has a bandwidth of 148.5Mhz. There are HDMI transmitters and receivers available now that have 165Mhz bandwidth:
http://www.siliconimage.com/products...mily.aspx?id=1

Maybe someone should contact Silicon Image and speak with an application engineer to find out if HDMI 1920*1080/60fps is a problem. If it is a problem, then it may have to do with long blanking intervals.
post #89 of 6249
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaveCanem View Post

Rogo, (MythBuster)

KDS-R50A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD
KDS-R60A10 1920 x 1080 SXRD

Do you think that these sets will actually make it to market by Oct/Nov, considering there is so little info on them right now?

Will they have a 1080p/60 input?

Fact or Myth?
=======================================================

What was the real reason for the HDMI bottleneck with the new 1080p sets?

Some say 1080p is not in the HDMI spec, but it is as an option. So why did the manufacturers of the upcoming 1080p sets not exercise this option?

I have also heard that Silicon Image cut corners by meeting the barest requirements of the spec in their current HDMI chips. But if this is the case what HDMI chip is Sony using for the Qualia upgrades?

Others have mentioned that there are no 1080p sources, therefore no 1080p HDMI. This is complete bunk, the PC is a 1080p source with some 1080p content.

DVI can handle 1080p/60, but HDMI currently cannot. Does HDCP have anything to do with this? Is Hollywood slowing down the 1080p/60 approval process pending some new, more intrusive DRM?
(I do not understand the limitation when DVI and HDMI are so similar with the exception of HDCP and audio.)

Thanks,

J.T.

I don't think there is a technical reason why 1080P is not directly supported as an input. 1080P at 60Hz is clearly supported in the HDMI/CES/VESA specs. As has been said it outputs at 148.5MHz. There are PC graphics cards that support this such as ATI's graphics cards (ATI has their own DVI/HDMI implementation). Silicon image makes chips that support up to 160MHz (including the 148.5MHz 1080P spec). They have chips such as the 1161 without HDCP and 1169 with HDCP chips that support 1080P and beyond.

I think it probably has more to do with some of the factors below:

1. Business decision on what to support on the TV.
2. That the sets may not look that good when supporting a 1080P source. There may for example be some artifact problems and they don't want to enable consumers seeing it.
3. Maybe there are issues with "compatibility" between all the implementations of DVI/HDMI. I have read that not all the implementations of DVI/HDMI are as good as others.
post #90 of 6249
I have come across several HDMI cables on sale on the web and they all advertise they support 1080p. Further I just read a review where HDMI cables were tested with 1080p and worked flawlessly, despite claims that HDMI does not support 1080p.

I think the only reason there are HDMI claims of not supporting 1080p is because 1080p is not available. The Sony PS3 will output 1080p via HDMI. New Sony sets will support it's reception.

When I bought my 1920x1200 computer monitor with a DVI-D input, I was told that DVI did not support anything above 1600x1200. Well, that was clearly wrong and now all the specs have been modified.
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