Coming Soon Ultimate HS51 VS Barco Data 808s thread!! - Page 3  

Hey Gary,

I am looking forward to reading your "report" :-)

But instead of going for the HS51 now, have you considered waiting for the rumered HS100 with the 1920x1080 panel that is supposed to be out late 2005???

No, but I'm looking for one if your selling........

Cliff

It is the Runco VX2C.


http://www.runco.com/OP_DLP_vx2c.html

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Runc...reme_VX-2c.htm


Cliff

Now, there is a G70 for under $1k on ebay. Has the world gone topsy turvy.

Ericglo

You might be thinking of Tryg. Vutec does the same kind of thing and their owner pretty much walked away when I said it was an interesting demo, but really an optical illusion.

I went down to Tryg's place and took a High Power with me for some comparisons. I know he didn't really like the Firehawk (the gray screen), but I thought it had the most image depth in his room. His projector wasn't super bright, so not as much room for a gray screen though.

You really wouldn't want to look at them side-by-side if you want to see how they will look by themselves (the way you will use them), although it can be interesting for some stuff.

A similar test would be to show a CRT on one half of a screen (or on one screen) with a digital shooting right next to it. If the digital is much brighter then it would give the illusion that the CRT couldn't do white and it could also wash out the low level details on the CRT. The reason for the gray instead of white is that white is relative (with our eyes adjusting) and the brighter digital would make the CRT whites look gray. White can be anywhere from say a couple of ft-lamberts to thousands of ft-lamberts and whether we perceive it as white is very dependent on what is around it. So, in a case like this you would mostly want to look at each unit as you would use it and not really simultaneously. One person equated the simultaneous side-by-side testing of white and gray screens to comparing Coke and Pepsi by using two straws to drink both at the same time, one into each side of your mouth.

The HS51 can actually take quite a bit longer than others because of its dynamic iris. Kris Deering has some numbers from when we calibrated his that might work as a testing point. I think the most important thing is to use the iris on auto, otherwise the CR is much lower.

--Darin

I know that you are hiding :), but truth be told, didn't you also say that those 2 LCOS digital projectors you got for $500 a piece beat the $40k Runco? Would it surprise you if the HS51 beat those and the Runco? Note that I'm not saying the HS51 beats the G70 for images, as I already gave my opinion there.

--Darin

That is a very important point. particularly for viewing the pjs displayed in AV stores. The pjs tend to be setup in "dynamic" mode, because it gives a "punchier" and more impressive looking image. It is certainly the brightest mode, and one which may make the pj stand out to joe sixpack in the high ambient light store setting. Unfortunately, this is the worst PQ mode for the HS51. The IRIS is off, blacks are crushed, and whites clipped. This does create a "contrasty" looking image, at the expense of accuracy and detail. In this mode the HS51 is basically a 600:1 CR pj.

I always take peoples comments about pj the saw in a store with a grain of salt. You just don't know what you are getting.

The interesting thing is that one of my neighbors has a HS51 on my recommendation. He always uses the dynamic mode, because he likes the "punch", go figure. :)

Yes Darin, I do think that LCOS is superior to DLP. Just my 2 cents. Black levels still sucked though........

Cliffy

Every time I see this thread I recall this QQQ classic:
Coming for Christmas - the Definitive CRT versus Digital Shootout

I don't know which is funnier... that Gary hasn't even seen the HS51 yet and he has his mind made up. Or that you guys are already frustrated that he's made the wrong choice even though he hasn't done the shootout. :D

I'm sure Gary's seen this, but it's a pretty good review:
http://ultimateavmag.com/videoprojectors/205sony/

I think it'll fit your room better, but I'm interested to see if the SDE bothers you or if you can adjust to it as an extreme type of H+V scanline.

OK, somewhat guilty. I do think that this is a good match up for the projector shopper. Heck, I'd like to thank Sony because if the HS20 wasn't so damn bad looking, I wouldn't be enjoying a CRT now--instead, I'd have had the HS20, then after Sony showed me how bad their product really was, I'd be figuring out how do dump it to upgrade to the better HS51 now, then in 8 months when Sony showed me how bad the HS51 is, I'd be trying to figure out how to upgrade to their next "innovation".

I guess the one kind of annoying thing is that there are guys that go digital to CRT and guys that go CRT to digital. The guys that go digital to CRT seem to be much more low key then the other way around. It seems too often that when the guys go CRT to digital, they start telling half truths or outright lies about the digital performance and bashing the CRTs with misinformation (think Vic). Now, Gary has not done that here, but it does seem to be a common pattern.

I do have to wonder the reaction someone would get in the digital forum to a post like:

"Ultimate H77 vs. Ampro 4600" thread if you said something like, "Well after years of contentending with planned obsolence, no black, horrible pixel structure, and a flat image, I called up one of the CRT resellers and I've got an Ampro 4600 on the way. I'm so excited to try a mature proven technology that most experts still consider the best. If it is 90% as good, then I'm done with digitals."

From what I've seen over there, they would bury you alive!

I've read this, and I have to say, two comments. I agree completely with this statement (emphasis mine): "For now, however, I'd urge anyone in the market for a digital projector priced below the stratosphere to take a close look at the VPL-HS51 Cineza.

Yeah, "for now" because in 2 months, it won't be the hot ticket anymore.

The other interesting thing is that Sony can actually get idiots to pay 10% of the cost of the projector ($299) for a mount to hold the thing on the ceiling. I guess they figure if you went for the PJ, you'll go for this! I'm surprised there's not a digital cable pitch in there too, "oh, you get too much digital signal loss with this cheap cable, you need to upgrade."

Sheesh, my PJ mount was $60 worth of unistrut and it holds up 10 times the weight of the HS51. $299-Ha!

Dave

Not exactly the same, but there is a thread by someone inquiring about going to CRT in th >$3,500 Forum.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=552296

Check it out.

If people make really dumb claims or tell lies then yes, they are likely to get trashed. I think that thread that HoustonHoyaFan is fairly indicative of what most people get when they ask for feedback.

--Darin

His post is a concrete example of what I'm saying--a very rational post about pluses and minuses. My sample was not like this, mine was more the inverse of this thread or Vic's post over there.

Don't have time right now to find the threads, but I've seen the examples, heck when someone over there said that they don't understand what the CRT guys are saying because he compared his DLP front projector to a CRT RPTV and the CRT wasn't really better, Clarence comically (and correctly) pointed out that the comparison was about as valid as comparing the DLP FP to a computer CRT monitor, he got absolutely no support, instead they immediately jumped in with "Watch out, the CRT guys are going to hijack your thread."

Hey, what was the result? :rolleyes:

Pretty close. I would say about 2 month and 14 days, since my hope is CEDIA brings introductions from both Sanyo and Panasonic of D5 720p LCD projectors that surpass the HS51 and can be had for close to $2k. D5 1080p availability and pricing still remain one of the biggest questions though.

--Darin

Gary, the 1080p units will be released within about a year, so the second part of this does say you'll be an update every year guy! :)

I hear ya! I've been VERY frustrated a couple of times (rebuilt green tube went bad, etc). Both times, I start calling the friends with the digitals telling them to bring them over or I go to their house and HT specialty stores to check them out. Each time I've come back cursing "Why can't those SOBs build a tolerable digital under $30,000? Back to the Barco!"

Dave

I hope the HS51 answers your prayers. From the dozen dPJ's I've seen, 720p from $2500-$5000 d!%!#@| doesn't yet tempt a replacement of 8" EM, much less 9" LC.

Predict the intersection date of 2 moving targets:
when 1080p dPJ's cost less than a 9" LC with nice tubes

I said it a couple of years ago and it still applies:
CRT: worth the weight.
dPJ: worth the wait?

I hope the HS51 answers your prayers. From the dozen dPJ's I've seen, 720p from $2500-$5000 d!%!#@| doesn't yet tempt a replacement of 8" EM, much less 9" LC.

I know darin has emphasized repeatedly that there's more to projectors than PQ and cost, but those factors are still pretty important to me.

Predict the intersection date of 2 moving targets:
when 1080p dPJ's cost less than a 9" LC with nice tubes

I said it a couple of years ago and it still applies:
CRT: worth the weight.
dPJ: worth the wait?

This is not a technological question, this is a market question. I've worked in tech all my life, we are still in the "early adopter" phase of DTV tech in general and digital FP in particular. You don't "blow your wad" during that phase. It does not pay. During the early adopter phase, you count on your early adopter to keep buying model after model in a rapid succession. Go over to the digital forums, they are doing it like crazy. The market has to be on the cusp of widespread adoption to make it worth your while to deliver your "final" technology.

So, your question is really, "Predict when digital front projectors will be mainstream."

Dave

Nope, my question is still...
Predict the intersection date of 2 moving targets:
when 1080p dPJ's cost less than a 9" LC with nice tubes

I've always cheered the early adopters.

But for me the point of interest is when pq exceeds my current technology at a comparable price.

So, what would you put as the cost of a 9" LC with nice tubes? Just as an example, I'll say it costs $8k given that there are 9" LCs lower than the G90. Now let's say for the sake of argument that the Epson group decides to release 1080p LCD at $7k and it is nice enough that the 9" LC moves to $6k. Then later they come out with another 1080p model that is $5k and the 9" LC moves to $4k. It still wouldn't have caught up because much of the market values some of these other things. Basically, the digital will affect the CRT pricing. If the first 1080p LCD is $6k but has some major flaw, then it would have less effect and there is more likely to be in intersection. Basically, the higher the quality of a low priced 1080p dPJ the less chance of an intersection.

As far as price/performance, these things could get all the way down to $2k and $1k with the 1080p digital having better absolute PQ in most people's opinions than the 9" LC and a person who doesn't care about size and things could still get more price/performance for the things they care about out of that 9" LC.

I don't think that is really his question, but I do find your twisting it interesting. I am curious as to whether you think PCs and/or video cards are at the early adopter stage. If not, why would they have to deliver their "final" technology for Clarence's intersection to happen. Are you claiming that if we get reasonably low cost 1080p digitals that it will mean this market is no longer in the "early adopter" phase? If not, what is it you are predicting about 1080p digitals?

EDIT: I see that Clarence responded while I was typing.
Since you said "moving targets" I assume that you are talking about the prices at those points, and not prices today. So, what if that intersection doesn't happen until they are both under $1k (years from now) but you would get better PQ by spending $2k on a digital at some point along the way? Then would they interest you?

--Darin

Well, where I put the cost of 9" LC is not typical. A couple of months ago I paid $500 for a 9" LC with nice tubes but I haven't seen it yet. Pete picked it up for me and it's sitting in his garage. Sure, it's only an Ampro 4200, but I still think it has a potential to best my M8500 or 1208s2.

But my original point was intentional and critical... the cost of 9" LC's is moving as much as the cost of d!%!#@| 1080p.

Good point. Yes, if/when a dPJ can deliver better PQ at 1080p for less than $2000, that is a great price point for me and probably most Americans.

The Ampro 4200 for $500 also came with some digital imagers that went for $440 on Fleabay.

Not a bad deal.

Pete

Sorry, Gary.

I don't think this has a nasty spin yet, but I'll nip my perceived bashing in the bud until you post your assessment of HS51 720p vs 8" CRT.

I'm still rooting for your personal satisfaction and I'll trust your assessment. It's still a ways away for me.