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Colorimeter in <1K$ category? - Page 6  

post #151 of 353
Actually I'd like to try the EyeOne Display 2. (the little tear drop thing) It specs at 10X more sensitive to low light than the Pro. (.02 cd/m^2 vs. .2 cd/m^2)

My motherinlaw has the Display 2 and I could try it out with CF. (if I could get the wonder dongle :) )

I don't know if umr's stuff would read the Display 2. I imagine it might if we were lucky.

As far as the non-Display EyeOnes they are all the same basic sensor as Jeff says - Beamer/Pro/Pro Accelerated/Photo/Proof/Monitor....

Only diffs are the EyeOne Monitor (bundled with CF) doesn't have the internal light source or come with the diffuser. And the Accelerated runs faster, but otherwise is the same.

Ken
post #152 of 353
Now I am really confused - because Milori sells the Eye-One Beamer!

http://www.milori.com/milorionlinecatalog/enter.html

Go to Accessories...
post #153 of 353
Kevin - the price there is the same as the MSRP for the EyeOne Beamer used to be. Whether it is the same package as the stand-alone Beamer would have to be answered by someone at Milori (but Ken has indicated his is different...).

Later,
Bill
post #154 of 353
Ken,

My software could work with the Display if I modified it. It only supports CRT and LCD (TFT) and a very limited set of features compared to the Pro. Ken you might want to look at the shootout I put on my website(linked under my signature). This is with one of the "new" pods (like the Display) versus my Eye-One Pro. I personally have abandonded using devices like that based on my experience and others in the biz with these devices.

It is because of these problems along with a few other issues I took matters into my
own hands.
post #155 of 353
I see no reason to support any device other than a spectroradiometer or spectrophotometer at this time. The issues with the others is not worth the headaches. Unless it is a Philips color analyzer which I have heard great things about.

I would much more likely support a Sencore generator in the future if I could get my hands on one and a manual on how to communicate with one.
post #156 of 353
Quote:
Now I am really confused - because Milori sells the Eye-One Beamer!
Yes, and for 40% more than GMB's MSRP!

Quote:
the price there is the same as the MSRP for the EyeOne Beamer used to be. Whether it is the same package as the stand-alone Beamer would have to be answered by someone at Milori (but Ken has indicated his is different...).
I guess Milori needs to keep the web site a little more up to date.
post #157 of 353
Jeff,

Ok, I looked at your shootout. Sorry I didn't read it before. I thought you were referring to that shootout with colorfacts and some others in a magazine years ago. (WSR? or Perfect Vision?) Anyway, I had heard the test conditions were too flawed to be useful.

I see now that your technique erases the low light sensitivity advantage of the filter pods.

Well that's big news! I can't wait to test my i1. If only I could find the data I have comparing it to the LightSpex.

Ken
post #158 of 353
I did spend a large portion of my life as an engineer modeling systems that are MUCH more complex than the CIE models for x and y. Handling noise in data is a key component of that activity. I just applied a little of that knowledge to this problem.
post #159 of 353
Ken and I did some experiments last night. The ColorFacts CF-6000 sensor does work with my software. However, it is not accurate for directly reading the projector because it lacks a diffuser and the proper calibration for that mode.
post #160 of 353
Yes the EyeOne is an awesome colorimeter. My 3 yr. old i1 matched Jeff's new one almost exactly with or without the diffuser.

The real story is the additional low light sensitivity with Jeff's DCS calibration software. Whereas, with ColorFacts my sensor is would measure accurately down to 30% video levels, with DCD it went down to 10%!!!!

Actually, since the CF i1 didn't come with a diffuser, this low light sensitivity is even more important. If you have the diffuser you can accurately measure the light directly out of the projector. Without the diffuser you need to measure off the screen. With DCS you measure far far lower off the screen.

Truthfully, the i1 is a steal at <$1k. It is a TRUE spectrophotometer, whereas ALL the pod types are not. The pods use a filter stack in front of one or more photo detectors, which is cheap but fraught with problems. Mimicking the CIE Photopic response curve is going to be next to impossible by stacking filters and the filters are going to drift with age.

With a devices like the i1 you're measuring the spectrum directly and so can mathematically match the photopic curve exactly. And, since the diffraction grating is a physical device that doesn't drift it will last virtually for ever. Now the responses of the 100 photodiodes can vary over time, but for very little money gmb will recalibrate back to spec. You could never do this with a filter pod. (and if my eyeone is a good example it's held up very well for at least these 3 years)

So my recommendation to anyone wanting accurate screen calibration, but doesn't have $5k+ for the next best spectrum analyzer, is to get the EyeOne. If you already have an EyeOne then I recommend Jeff's DCS software to get the increased low light sensitivity.

I'm going to call gmb Monday and see about getting a diffuser. I'll let you know what they say.

Ken
post #161 of 353
Jeff, I read a while back in this thread that you would like to try the New SpyderTV spectroradiometer with your software. Is the theory based on the fact that this new probe will do all types of displays but with the added bonus of getting greyscale with the addition of your software and spyderTV? $300 complete Package?? Very interesting if true and you can interface with this probe. Thanks.

Samsonite
post #162 of 353
SpyderTV is not a spectroradiometer like the EyeOne. SpyderTV is what's called a "Filter Colorimeter" which I referred to as a "Pod Type" in my above post.

These Filter Colorimeters do not measure the spectrum of the light. They use a stack of filters in front of 3-4 photo diodes. EyeOne for example, a true Spectro Radiometer, breaks the incoming light into its spectrum and then measures the spectrum at 100 points.

Jeff will speak for himself, but it's my interpretation that he's moved on from Filter Colorimeters to the true Spectroradiometer in the EyeOne.

Ken
post #163 of 353
Brad - the project I am working on will interface to the Spyuder2 probe, of which the SpyderTV will be one. My major interest in the EyeOne at this point is to take a known, usably-accurate probe and compare it against my Spyder2. The net result, at a minimum, will be a system that is a lot faster and at least as accurate as using SmartIII.

Later,
Bill
post #164 of 353
My interest lies in the Plasma realm. I run my Panasonic with a HTPC. Should I be more interested in setting an ICC profile within the video card or should I be adjusting the display's settings to get optimal results? It is my understanding that the new SpyderTV probe will handle plasmas whereas the Spyder2 probe cannot.

1) should us HTPC'ers set ICC profiles or not?
2) will the cheapish spyderTV probe possibly be able to interface with your project to give a "near colorfacts" quality calibration at 1/8 the cost?
3) How soon do you think you or some other system will allow the DIYer to fully calibrate plasmas including the greyscale? It's a shame that the new SPyderTV will NOT do greyscales.

Thanks for all your contributions.
Samsonite
post #165 of 353
To answer your questions:
1) It is better to calibrate the display directly than to use an ICC profile on the HTPC, especially if you are using DVI. An ICC profile is no substitute for properly established contrast and brightness controls.

2) Near ColorFacts? That is why I aill be using the EyeOne to test. ColorFacts is much more feature rich than I will be able to cobble together, but the major difference is in the accuracy of the probe. Once the SpyderTV comes out, I will be able to say how it differs from the ordinary Spyder2.

3) Jeff's system plus an EyeOne will do that, but with a target price about twice as expensive as an ISF calibration. My system will do the math to do a grayscale, but whether the data that the sensor provides is accurate enough to get a targeted grayscale is another question. (I can get you a flat grayscale, but just not necessarily to D65).

Later,
Bill
post #166 of 353
Ken

Spyder2 has 7 filters and edge sensors - with the 8th being a luminance/refresh meter - thus the Spyder (eight!) name For black level readings, stability and saturated primaries it is much improved over the Spyder1. Of course it is subject to degradation because of the filter stacks - but I think less so than the others. While I was researching the Beamer I found a photo site review that ranked the Spyder1 worse than the Beamer - but the Spyder2 was better (using their matrixed criteria). Of course - it cannot sample screens as it is not a spectroradiometer! When I used the Beamer I found it painfully slow for doing greyscale tuning - I have no intention of using it for that - I am just going to use it as a reference trainer.

Did a patent search for ColorVision - their patents detail the filter stacks more - very fascinating.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...RS=ColorVision
post #167 of 353
CIE defines the calculation for xy chromacity coordinates as functions of the spectra at 5nm spacings. No Filter Colorimeter can ever give you sprectra readings. The EyeOne gives spectra readings at 10nm increments so its not laboratory grade, but try to find 5nm spacing under $5k.

Training a Filter Colorimeter against a spectroradiometer is only going to give you the correction for the particular lamp (light source) that you train with. The correction will be something else for different light sources. If you used something like a broadsprectrum reference lamp then the correction might be more general purpose.

I wouldn't put much weight on features or speed of measurement. Whats a few minutes total to get superior results?

I understand low light sensitivity concerns with the EyeOne, but with Jeff's improved raw spectral data processing that is no longer an issue.

You might want to check out Jeff's software. It's incredibly inexpensive, supports the Acupel signal generator and the reports are customizable using Excel.

Ken
post #168 of 353
Ken

That is the whole point of training the Spyder2 with the Beamer - do it for the projector/screen combo I am using. Just I don't think you should paint the Spyder2 with the same brush stroke as some of the other pods out there.

The problem with the Beamer is that I work faster than it does - by the time it decides what the reading is - I forgot which way I was planning to go! It ruins my calibration mojo man! So I will use Spyder to do my tuning, and the Beamer to do my profiling. Just like AVIA PRO is better/worse than an Accupel - every tool has it's use..

I am using MatLab to write my reports now - so have that covered until Milori adds database/reports to their API. I am sure the spreadsheet software is a good DIY way to go - but even for a few hundred I have to say what does it buy me that I do not already have and must justify capital business expense to the BOSS (yes she owns half my business - community property state!)
post #169 of 353
Kevin,

Thanks for posting the PTO link it is a good presentation of their technology. However, remember a Patent does not guarantee quality even though I have authored several myself.



General Comment...

I don't plan on entering in on a debate between any pod device versus a spectroradiometer/spectrophotometer instrument. All pods will be substandard on accuracy and the Eye-One Pro is fast enough for me. People who want more information on pod performance in actual display colorimetry situations should look at my website for more information.

Is improved pod performance possible? Sure.

Will any device that uses significantly less than 10 nm samples ever be as accurate as one that does? I doubt it. Look at the shape of the attached spectral performance of a typical home theater device. The complexity of these response curves (that can change dramatically between lamps) makes it very difficult to obtain accurate color measurements when they are under sampled. The area under the curve is proportional to the color and over estimating or under estimating the area with less than 1% error (which is my goal for accuracy) is a very difficult task even with 10 nm samples much less significantly less.

Do some people have trouble calibrating with a spectroradiometer? Sure.

Do some people not have trouble calibrating with a spectroradiometer? Sure.

My goal here is to provide a tool that can be used to calibrate a home theater display at a price point under $1000. I thought that was what this thread was about and I delivered. Anyone else who has a better or equal option at this price point is free to offer it up as well.
post #170 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradSwanson
Jeff, I read a while back in this thread that you would like to try the New SpyderTV spectroradiometer with your software. Is the theory based on the fact that this new probe will do all types of displays but with the added bonus of getting greyscale with the addition of your software and spyderTV? $300 complete Package?? Very interesting if true and you can interface with this probe. Thanks.

Samsonite
I think Ursa handled this question.
post #171 of 353
The lowest cost beamer vendor from Jeff's website search is about $300 less than everybody else. Is it suitable for use with Jeff's software? Does it come with a diffuser? Do I need the diffuser at all?

If the <$600 beamer package works and with Jeff's introductory price, it would be really great.
post #172 of 353
The diffuser comes will all Eye-One Pro sensors. It is very useful if you plan on measuring a front projector. That deal should work if it is really available. I would call them and make sure it is really available and is not just the tripod mount, but the description sure looks correct to me.
post #173 of 353
There is also a low cost Beamer supplier on *bay whom I purchased mine from that has them in stock at a great price.
post #174 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkeung
The lowest cost beamer vendor from Jeff's website search is about $300 less than everybody else. Is it suitable for use with Jeff's software? Does it come with a diffuser? Do I need the diffuser at all?

If the <$600 beamer package works and with Jeff's introductory price, it would be really great.
The part number does not match, but it is worth a phone call to check.
post #175 of 353
That same low cost vendor has a return policy basically called "When Hell freezes over....."
post #176 of 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by krasmuzik
That same low cost vendor has a return policy basically called "When Hell freezes over....."
They also have another 'beamer' package with what seems to be the right part no. for >1.4k. I'll call but I don't expect anything informative. I bought a refurbished Denon 2800 mkII from them before and had no problem.
post #177 of 353
That is old MSRP that Milori also sells for. GMB themselves have it new MSRP $1K.

Great site for refurbs/closeout deals when it works out - but I only trust them for flash cards.
post #178 of 353
Ok, I couldn't resist...I bought an Eye-One Beamer (GMB part # 36.88.02) and Jeff's software. I am a complete n00b, and maybe I am getting in over my head, but I'm gonna give it my best shot. Even with shipping, the solution is well under the targetted $1k price point, though I decided to shell out extra for a Dell notebook to keep the whole thing portable.

Wish me luck! :p
post #179 of 353
Bob - Good luck! :)
post #180 of 353
Way to go Bob! I guess with two of us now, we can hold user conferences and demand that Jeff implement our feature requests. :)

Ken
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AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › Display Calibration › Colorimeter in <1K$ category?