Colorimeter in <1K$ category? - Page 8  

Ursa, would you say that it is an inexpensive bet to just get the SpyderTV now, use it for what it is, then wait for your program to do the gray scales?

Can you elaborate on your software a little further?

The price is right.

Samsonite

To be fair there is another <1K option not mentioned:

The optical Comparitor.

This is an interesting device to have even if you have a meter.
Any idea where to buy one?

-- Rich

Brad - I do not want to get too far ahead of myself, but the core product is there. Like Jeff's software and SmartIII, it is Excel-based and the math is painfully explicit (e.g., I have two methods for calculating Gamma, each with advantages and disadvantages, but they agree within <0.1 for most of my test data - typically within 0.04 to 0.05).

My target market is the same as the SpyderTV in general: it will not replace a professional tool or a professional calibration, but for folks who are looking to get close, this may be the right tool. Expect a release in the late-September/early-October timeframe (I need to do some testing with the shipping software from the SpyderTV for a while, and make sure that my interface did not break with the shipping product).

How I see the market:
- Enthusiast/hobbyist who is willing to spend the money on "good enough" tools: SpyderTV/Spyder2PRO is for you
- If you want to spend >2x the cost of the Spyder, then you are in the market for any of the other tools mentioned here.

The major difference between the Spyder2PRO and SpyderTV is that the TV includes a test pattern disc (no AVIA or DVE required) and a tripod/flat panel mount. The TV is not designed to work with DLP front projectors, but given that the Spyder2PRO will, it may be a simple software update to ensure its accuracy, or that may be a deciding factor to go for the PRO version. The PRO version includes the ability to create ICC profiles, so it is probably worth the extra $30 if you have several PCs around the house.


Jeff - If I can get free from this project, I would love to do a comparison of the three meters. Maybe after Labor Day?

Ursa - the hardware changes are minor - white diffusor on front and firmware tables, and Milori API. So it makes absolute sense not to have a DataColor vs. Milori stock.

Of course a tripod mount in the package would be a good idea. Miloris is a cheap powder coated steel plate with mount holes.

If indeed they allow the API access then the spreadsheet method is the cheapest way to go.

You may be right. The diffuser is underneath the "light guides" on my two, and I would expect any software changes to be in the main software as a correction factor(s), rather than in the firmware in the meters themselves. However, if the Spyder2PRO update requires a firmware change to the meter, then we will know our answer for sure.

Later,
Bill

Yes, the fact that the SpyderTV can be placed in contact with the screen makes all the difference from what I have been told. I only have LCDs, CRTs and DLP FP to test it on, so this is not from first-hand experience, but the SpyderTV product is designed to handle it. The Spyder2PRO will also be able to deal with them as well soon.

Ursa

You are supposed to remove the honeycomb light pipe for front projection - I understand it also has a filter in it for LCD. See the patent I posted earlier - there is a table of sensor corrections in the firmware - it has a FPGA to update the numbers. What would be really interesting is if you could train the sensor with these correction factors based on a reference spectro - but Milori just does that with colormath in their software when you use the training feature. They do calibrate the sensor at the factory (with what - I dunno)

I had to be sure to order a Milori Spyder - DataColor just modded a ColorVision Spyder2 into a Spyder1 casing with the Milori Spyder updates - bit of a hybrid in-between product really!

I would rate the options in order of cost and quality in the under $1k category to obtain a good color calibration as follows.

I would only consider a spectroradiometer or an optical comparator if you want accurate colors for anything, but a CRT. This is based on several less than stellar experiences with filter based colorimeters. I cannot begin to tell you how satisfying it is to pay over $1k for a colorimeter that tells you a screen is blue when it is red. If you can adjust the color gamut on your display then an optical comparator is not sufficient.

1. Purchase a Kodak gray card as a D65 reference and a good 6500K light source like this http://www.hellolights.com/150wat65iw.html . This is the lowest cost option and not likely to yield poor results assuming you know how to adjust the cuts and drives to get it right.

2. Hire an ISF calibrator who has a good optical comparator, spectroradiometer, signal generator and test media that fit your sources including possibly DVD, D-VHS and LD. Do not underestimate the importance of quality test equipment and skill.

3. Buy a new Sony PVM-96 D65 monitor and use it as an optical comparator. This is a better optical comparator option and not likely to yield poor results assuming you know how to adjust the cuts and drives to get it right.

4. My software with an Eye-One Pro spectroradiometer for an instrument with excellent accuracy assuming you are unwilling to hire this capability.

You could always sell the Sony PVM-96 or the Eye-One Pro when you are done to reduce the cost if you choose one of those options. You can probably recover more of you cost for the Eye-One Pro than the PVM-96.

Also, don't forget the cost of whatever you are going to use to generate test patterns in the equation.

Jeff,

I think you've answered this, but I couldn't find it with search: Does the EyeOne Design ($795) include the diffuser and all required licenses to be fully functional with your software?

Am I giving up anything by going with Design rather than Photo as far as monitor and projector calibration with DCS?

Thanks,
Ken

Ken - You are giving up the tripod mount and getting all of the basic printer/monitor calibration goodies vs the Beamer. If you follow Bob's post above, you will find that the lack of a tripod mount is not a big deal since you can't use the diffuser with the tripod mount anyway. The Photo is a more advanced beast than the Design (I'm not sure how or where it makes its calculated corrections).

In case it is not obvious, I bought the Design, and at $550 after trade-in, I thought it was a good deal.

Later,
Bill

I guess I should tell everyone that I've been using Jeff's DCS software with my ColorFacts EyeOne.

He's added one feature (I think I requested it?) that takes a measurement when you press the button on the EyeOne. It makes things go much faster.

And the new R,G,B chart is nice too!

Bob, have you calibrated anything with DCS yet?

Ken

Would this light be good to check the calibration on an Eye One? I have that with ColorFacts and have thought of sending it in to get recal'd if needed, but if that light would work for telling me if it is reading off then I would probably rather do that.

--Darin

Yes the design has the diffuser.

http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/index/p...-includes2.htm

Eye-One Design calibrates and profiles:

Monitors - LCD, CRT and Laptops
RGB and CMYK printers with "small test chart technology

http://www.gretagmacbeth.com/index/p...o-includes.htm

Eye-One Photo calibrates and profiles

Monitors LCD, CRT and Laptops
RGB
CMYK Easy* with small test chart technology
Scanners
Digital Projectors
Digital Cameras

Eye-One Photo also provides the ability to:

Edit Profiles**
Capture Flash and Ambient Light
Measure Spot Colors

What about that hand help black box that is interally lit and has selectable gray boxes?

We discussed this off-line. But after my experience with a particular ISF Calibrator I am not much interested in this. I know this is unfair, but to me it is just a $300 crap shoot. I now have green-scales. Really obvious ones at that.

This was the result of either improperly calibrated equiptment, but more likely afternoon room lighting.

I just want to do a half decent job myself. Your software and the Eye One Beamer may be the best choice. But the Eye-One presents other problems since there is no easy way for me to syspent it near the wall mounted screen. Massive Tripode I guess.

For test patterns, Avia will do for DVDs. I think I can locate some Transport stream gray patterns for high def too.

-- Rich

Ursa,

I've got the beamer stuff that came with ColorFacts. Never used it :)

I do need the diffuser though. I wish I knew where to buy the diffuser material and save myself the hassle of buying a whole new sensor package.

Hmmm... I might try taking using the diffuser off my old Spyder I with my EyeOne.

Of course I'll have to get Jeff to compare my results with his to see if it works. (Yeah, I'm the customer from hades and Jeff's offered me double my money back to quit bothering him :) )

Ken

It might have, but it is probably too late. I have not used that lamp so I don't know its spectrum. I would use something that you can read its spectrum and compare it back to. The best source is something more like what we are measuring. That has uneven spectral response. I am using a Sony PVM-96 to do this. It serves two functions. One as an optical comparator, but primarily as a check for my instrument.

The GMB Diagnostics are not a bad option either. You can download those from GMB. You won't have the full capability with your Eye-One Monitor that a Pro model does, but it is better than nothing.

Based on my limited sample size of two instruments the stability of these devices seems to be very good after three years.

Darin,

Bill Cushman uses a tiny Sony Professional Broadcast Monitor as a stable checkpoint for his measurement devices. The phosphors are physically mixed at D65 and so are stable over time.

So anytime he needs/wants to check the drift on a sensor he fires up the Sony and measures the screen. It may be the model Jeff referred to above.

Ursa, I meant to ask where you got such a deal on the Design.

Jeff, I read/knew most of that, but does any of the missing options affect the workings/features of DCS?

Thanks,
Ken

Avia has flawed colors in its gray scale. You would need to disconnect the Pr and Pb wires to use it properly. Here is an example of RGB correction factors required for Avia. They are not small at low light levels. http://www.accucal.org/documents/Avi...on_Factors.doc

There is no reason to mount the sensor. I use it hand held all most all of time.

The internal light models I believe are not available at this time. The Kodak gray card I am suggesting should get you close to that capability. I believe the box model uses white paper and a gray card along with a 6500K light source. What I am suggesting is functionally equivalent and available. You can contact ISF if you want to find out if they will sell you one.

The problem with these types of comparators is getting the light levels correct. The eye is easily fooled on color versus level.

P.S. - Sometimes when I answer a question it is for a wider audience than the person who asked it. I was trying to provide a complete perspective on the <$1K choice.

DCS does not need any GMB licenses to function and will work with any Eye-One Pro or Eye-One Monitor.

My Sony monitor is the same model as Bill's.

Jeff,

What does your EyeOne measure on your Sony D65 monitor?
Did you ever compare it to Bill's?

Is it exactly .3127 .3290 from 10-100IRE? :)

Ken

Extremely informative thread. By the looks of it, I can get an Eye One Design package and Jeff's DCS software and have everything I need to calibrate my Benq 8700+ DLP projector. I also have a professional photo printer and CRT monitor that I can profile - nice all-in-one solution. :)

The Eye One Design is $1130 CDN (looks like MSRP!) at Vistek.ca. I wonder if there is any alternative Canadian distributors?

By the way, a review of the Eye One Design here:

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/a...ne_design.html

It briefly mentions that the Eye One Display 2 does NOT use a spectrophotometer.

Nice review.

I don't support the Eye One Display or Display 2 for that reason although it would be pretty easy to do so.

Sort of off topic

When searching the Colorvision website for info on the Spyder2 Pro I came across these home theater calibration options. Notice anything about Colorfacts?......
A free SpyderTV is included!


http://www.colorvision.com/profis/pr...artment_id=404

There is also a 25% pre-order discount.

The upgrade is free to CFPRO but I wonder if the SpyderTV upgrade is free too!

Nope, the SpyderTV is only if you purchase it. The ordinary Spyder2 package would be the cheapest option for purchase of the base sensor.

Picked up an EyeOne Design package for $559 today. (Thanks to Ursa's tip!)

Can't wait to be able to take proper readings off the projector using the cosine corrector.

Ken

I ordered one as well, thanks to Ursa. Unfortunately, it still hasn't shipped since i made the order last week. I'm keeping my fingers crossed...

Ken, did yours ship yet?

Hopefully I will get mine in time before UMR's sale price ends. :)

No, I just ordered it today. I'm trading in my old Spyder I for the $200 off.

Ken