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DVD Forum / NO Full Bandwidth HD over Component Analog Video  

post #1 of 233
7/6/05 at 8:58pm
Thread Starter 
Well. It looks like HD-DVD is going to screw 5 million HDTV owners by down converting to 480p over composite. I had a feeling about this. It doesn't specifically say COMPONENT Video, but they use the term Analog. So I read it as we are S*** out of luck!

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/Article2098.phtml

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post #2 of 233
7/6/05 at 9:44pm
Composite would be 480i so maybe the article is in error a bit.

Otherwise, given the current trend with upconverting players, I don't think anyone really expected (but hoped anyway) that 1080i/720p HD-DVD or BluRay would be available over *component*.

Paul
post #3 of 233
7/6/05 at 10:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintit77
Well. It looks like HD-DVD is going to screw 5 million HDTV owners by down converting to 480p over composite. I had a feeling about this. It doesn't specifically say COMPONENT Video, but they use the term Analog. So I read it as we are S*** out of luck!

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/Article2098.phtml
No suprise here. Sad...very sad. I spoke with folks at a local high end video parlor....they said it would be hell for them if this turns out the case since they have outfited systems in the 20,000+ range over the past 5 years...many without DV/HDMI. Try to explain to someone who 48 months ago put together a killer HD system that he will not be able to watch HD DVD's.

Hackers...start your engines!
post #4 of 233
7/6/05 at 11:59pm
Oh thank goodness. It sure is a good thing that they’ll be down-rezing the analog outputs. Just imagine all the damage that would be caused if those hundreds of people that own W-VHS recorders could make almost perfect copies of HD-DVDs onto tapes that only they can play. :rolleyes:
post #5 of 233
7/7/05 at 1:44am
What if Blu-Ray saw this as an opportunity and convinced their studio partners (starting with Sony pictures maybe?) that it really isn't that big of a deal, and allowed full bandwidth HD over analog?

Instant traction in an HD player market with an installed base of 5million early adopters whose grubby HD content hungry paws are clutching $...

That would be cool...
post #6 of 233
7/7/05 at 5:45am
To be fair, they aren't worried about WVHS owners. They are worried about the people willing to spend $5k on a Mac system that will allow you to capture and convert off analog. Not saying it isn't silly, but it happens.
post #7 of 233
7/7/05 at 6:13am
I think the words **** and YOU are in order here, folks.
post #8 of 233
7/7/05 at 12:25pm
Many of us were hoping in vain that we would be given at least first or second generation players that would output full PQ over component before Hollywood closed the "analog hole"

I guess some of us can use our dollars to tell them where to shove their "hole".
post #9 of 233
7/7/05 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet
To be fair, they aren't worried about WVHS owners. They are worried about the people willing to spend $5k on a Mac system that will allow you to capture and convert off analog. Not saying it isn't silly, but it happens.
Next they will prevent someone from using a camcorder (to record the screen) by having the only output be electrodes attached directly to your brain. You might even have to go to a special decryption class to learn how to interpret the signal before they will hook you up. :eek:
post #10 of 233
7/7/05 at 6:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDHTPC
Next they will prevent someone from using a camcorder (to record the screen) by having the only output be electrodes attached directly to your brain. You might even have to go to a special decryption class to learn how to interpret the signal before they will hook you up. :eek:
Actually there are projects in development for exactly this issue though not as extreme as the electrode suggestion. The main thust is commercial theaters since camcorder smuggling is the primary source of piracy. But these technologies could easily be extended to home video.

My employer is currently working on such projects. Let's put it this way to avoid any non-disclosure, the eye is easily fooled. An image does not have to be assembled in sequential order, your brain does an excellent job of sorting things out the way they should look. A camcorder is not that smart!
post #11 of 233
7/7/05 at 7:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDHTPC
Next they will prevent someone from using a camcorder (to record the screen) by having the only output be electrodes attached directly to your brain. You might even have to go to a special decryption class to learn how to interpret the signal before they will hook you up. :eek:
Naw...they will just make it almost impossible to use your HD camcorder to take footage of virtually anything. Try taking your camera/camcorder to a public place in a major city...watch how long it take the local authorities to pay you a visit.

I spend a lot of time on Martha's Vineyard during the summer. I always enjoyed taking video of the boat trip out to the island. Well now..if the local gestapo sees you framing the ferry or the dock in the viewfinder...they will be on you like flies.
post #12 of 233
7/7/05 at 8:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProofTech
Oh thank goodness. It sure is a good thing that they’ll be down-rezing the analog outputs. Just imagine all the damage that would be caused if those hundreds of people that own W-VHS recorders could make almost perfect copies of HD-DVDs onto tapes that only they can play. :rolleyes:
Too funny, and I am one of the several hundred that own a W-VHS VCR. I believe the concern is about an affordable MPEG encoder to use with component video that will be available sometime in the future. With unrestricted analog video, the encoder would be availabe sooner rather than later. There is no copy protection over analog component video.

I like my W-VHS VCR but would never use it for recording Blu-ray or HD-DVD since the blank tape costs about as much as I expect the discs to cost and the quality is considerably less than almost perfect.

Chris
post #13 of 233
7/8/05 at 4:16am
"I think the words **** and YOU are in order here, folks. "

You bet, along with NO THANKS!
post #14 of 233
7/8/05 at 4:38am
Take HDMI and shove it! I ain't playing your MPAA games no more!
post #15 of 233
7/8/05 at 4:39am
Maybe some off-shore company can develop an HDMI or DVI to component video adapter and sell it on the internet........
post #16 of 233
7/8/05 at 5:59am
Quote:
therwise, given the current trend with upconverting players, I don't think anyone really expected (but hoped anyway) that 1080i/720p HD-DVD or BluRay would be available over *component*.
I still expect full rez component outputs. They have a fairy narrow time window here as they have dallied for some time on the copy protection and other issues. Now DVD sales appear to be peaking and newer technology around the corner might cause the HxDVD tech to be skipped completely if it doesn't become a standard fairly rapidly. And it has almost no chance for rapid acceptance if crippled so it can't talk component properly.

- Tom
post #17 of 233
7/8/05 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trbarry
And it has almost no chance for rapid acceptance if crippled so it can't talk component properly.

- Tom
Exactly, which makes one wonder why they (CE and/or MPAA) seem to want to have the current HD optical (either format) to be still born, which has a better chance of happening than a mass D* ST revolt, IMHO.

I remain wondering, but loosing interest quickly, enough terrorism at home!
post #18 of 233
7/8/05 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by telemike
Maybe some off-shore company can develop an HDMI or DVI to component video adapter and sell it on the internet........
They already have that, and it's a U.S. company.
post #19 of 233
7/8/05 at 10:39pm
Thread Starter 
It looks like the DVD forum is putting the finishing touches on the new HD-DVD format. And from what I reading into it, analog outputs are going to be down rezzed to 480p.
Here is the article, it is interesting and frustrating. What I want to know is, how can Hollywood Justify allowing component video outputs on D-VHS but not on the next generation disks?

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/Article2098.phtml

This is Bull S***. I can't believe they are going to screw 5 million HDTV owners like this.
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special...vddilemmas.html
post #20 of 233
7/8/05 at 11:03pm
"What I want to know is, how can Hollywood Justify allowing component video outputs on D-VHS but not on the next generation disks?"

Lack of content and lack of owners.

"I can't believe they are going to screw 5 million HDTV owners like this. "

I posted this a while back... The quoted post I reference is much older still...

"I did the HDCP math some time back....

Here's an excerpt from the post...

"Here are some data points...

>2002 HD-ready sets: 4 million
2003 HD-ready sets: ~4 million
2004 HD-ready sets: ~7 million
2005 HD-ready sets: ~11 million

By 2003, 90% of the sets sold were HDCP compliant. For arguments sake, I'll assume that the total sold before 2003 was around 50%. It's currently 95%+...

So we are looking at 2.0 + 3.6 + 6.3 + 10.5 = 22.4 with HDCP of 26 million at the intro of high-def DVD. "

Some quibbled with my 2.0 million of the first 4.0 million (I have lots of evidence from what I know to believe I'm right, but feel free to cut the numbers a bit there). There is almost no way that the year end figure won't be at least 20 million of 26% or >3 in 4. And the evidence suggests it's actually going to be >85%.

Even taking the lower initial estimate of 20 in 26 million and adding 23 million of the next 24 million with HDCP gets 43 of 50 and ensures we are looking at 85%. That assumes no mothballing or failure or whatnot.

Given that probably fewer than 1 in 10 active sets are going to be HDCP incompatible by the end of next year, the component-on-high-def DVD crowd is likely to be disappointed."
post #21 of 233
7/9/05 at 2:32am
My CRT FPTV and no Component = me no purchase :mad:

there is the dtrovision DVI to VGA converter with HDCP pass, but I worry about quality, people without VGA connection like my CRT projector would have to add another conversion from VGA to component

-Gary
post #22 of 233
7/9/05 at 4:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell
...there is the dtrovision DVI to VGA converter with HDCP pass, but I worry about quality, people without VGA connection like my CRT projector........

-Gary
Gary..... First thanks for posting this information, my HD LCD has a VGA in, but not on my larger direct view CRT. About all I can see is I "could" use one of the upconverting DVD players (DVI out) and hook it through this device to my LCD VGA in, total cost aprox. $500 (device and player), well it's a solution for some.

"Matt S's" comment along with NO THANKS comes to mind quickly.
post #23 of 233
7/9/05 at 6:14am
What the HD-DVD camp hasn't figured out is that big retailers like Best Buy are not going to want to sell these things, since they won't be compatible with most sets sold over the last ten years.
post #24 of 233
7/9/05 at 7:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens
What the HD-DVD camp hasn't figured out is that big retailers like Best Buy are not going to want to sell these things, since they won't be compatible with most sets sold over the last ten years.
Likewise, I sure hope there is some truth to this, but seems something funny is going on at Best Buy, lots of close outs on the DVD front, and no sign of new models?

I'm also going to look into several other options, and check the number of models they have with at least DVI inputs, six months ago it was about nill. Plus it seems I've read of many folks who clame HDMI issues, who knows?

Right now it's NO THANKS (to HD Optical)! I'll suffer through with D-VHS and my friends ;-)
post #25 of 233
7/9/05 at 8:24am
Judging by the reaction here, the lack of HD analog outputs could well make any HD disk format a non-starter.

While I've heard the argument that we're the "fanatical minority" and other folks who aren't as in to video and HD won't really care about this issue, I'm not so sure that this is true. After all, we're the people that family and friends come to with questions about video technology. So if a large number of us refuse to buy technology that does not work with our legacy analog-only or non HDCP-compliant digital input sets, it really will have a ripple effect into the wider market.

I certainly don't intend to give recommendations to buy equipment that I can't try out myself because it doesn't work with my television...and I have zero interest in a HD disk format that down-rezzes to SD on my television. If it looks no better than standard DVD, why would I bother to spend the money?

Meanwhile, the dedicated pirates certainly won't be stopped -- if they can afford $5k for professional grade MPEG encoders, they can probably also afford the equipment to get around HDCP. And just think: if the pirates produce DVDs that reencode the pirated material into the DIVX format, there already is at least one DVD player on the market that will output that in analog HD to our legacy televisions. As I recall, doesn't the "Link Player" have this capability for $3050? This means that 5 million of us will find ourselves in the position where the legal product played on a $1,000 HD disk player won't work with our televisions, whereas pirated product played on a $300 player will.

Um, yeah. Great way to discourage piracy, Hollywood.
post #26 of 233
7/9/05 at 8:29am
I apologize if this has already been posted elsewhere. It's from the August 2005 issue of AV Guide Monthly's article by Gary Merson, "Toshiba Line Show 2005":

"HD DVD Player: The player will only output high def from its
IEEE 1394 and HDMI outputs. The player's component outputs
will downrez to 480 lines, with the digital outputs set to
handle 1080i and 720p. The HD DVD player will also have a
USB interface for computer connectivity, which will allow
additional content such as video games and disc extras to be
accessed through the Internet to take full advantage of the
player's interactive capabilities. New mastering specifications
will be based on 1080p."
post #27 of 233
7/9/05 at 9:13am
See the thing is we have all seen this coming for years around here. Those of us who do research etc for fun can blame no one but ourselves for decisions we made but the folks who bought HD sets over the past several years based on advice from dealers should be pissed. Really, think about it , it's like buying a new car to find that all of the new highways that have been built ,opening in September , are verboten to you. :eek:
post #28 of 233
7/9/05 at 9:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt_Stevens
What the HD-DVD camp hasn't figured out is that big retailers like Best Buy are not going to want to sell these things, since they won't be compatible with most sets sold over the last ten years.
The new HD players will have component outs, but just won't pass HD resolutions through them. Do you really think that a sales guy on the floor of BestBuy is going to either accurately know this, accurately tell a potential customer about this, and be capable of accurately describing why this is? I envision a slew of people buying these new players not even realizing that they aren't getting full resolution. Do you think that the salespeople at BestBuy are telling people buying TVs now without a digital tuner are jumping at the chance to tell them that they won't be able to get OTA in a few years? Not unless they can upsell them to a more expensive TV. I think that the BestBuys are gonna love this, it'll give them another method of pushing the more expensive newer HDTVs.
post #29 of 233
7/9/05 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikey p
Likewise, I sure hope there is some truth to this, but seems something funny is going on at Best Buy, lots of close outs on the DVD front, and no sign of new models?

I'm also going to look into several other options, and check the number of models they have with at least DVI inputs, six months ago it was about nill. Plus it seems I've read of many folks who clame HDMI issues, who knows?

Right now it's NO THANKS (to HD Optical)! I'll suffer through with D-VHS and my friends ;-)
Matt and others.......

Before someone corrects me, I'll stand corrected, BEST BUY "now" has many sets with HDMI (w/HDCP) a input (and digital tuners) actually it was hard to see one with out. Plus what ever upconverting DVI out DVD players they had have disapeared, only HDMI outputs that upconvert. So it looks as the DVI hole (if there was one?) was closed also. Seems a whole lot has changed in the last few months while few were watching.

So face it guys, we were screwed, unless you would like to replace most of your high $$$$ stuff...... :o
post #30 of 233
7/9/05 at 11:09am
Thread Starter 
I think your math maybe a little off due to the fact that we don't have an accurate assesment of how many of the 2002/2003 sets with DVI are actually HDCP compliant. I have a friend who is the sales mananger at a local Soundtrack and he thinks that HDCP didn't become the standard until late 2003 early 2004. So just becuase an HDTV has a DVI doesn't mean that it is HDCP compliant. All the Zenith and LG products produced in 2002/2003 and early 2004 were not HDCP compliant. My friend won a Zenith Plasma that was produced in January, 2004. The DVI will not work with even a Zenith Up-Convert DVD player becuase it is not HDCP compliant. After sending it to Zenith 3 times with software up-grade after upgrade, they could it not get it to shake hands with anything that had HDCP.

The other issue that no one is talking about is the fact that all of the CE Retailers continue to sell HDTVs that don't have a DVI or HDMI. Wal-Mart, Costco and Sam's Club are the most guilty but check out your local Circuit City and BB and you will see 10-15 models in the store with no HDMI or DVI. Its rediculous. I've said it before and I'll say it again, we should start a class action lawsuit against everyone. The CE Manufacturers, The Nazi MPAA, CE Retailers and especially the FCC and the Government over the the broadcast flag. This is the biggest screwing of the American consumers in the last five years. Total Bull. We should get together and sue them so they have to replace our equipment with TVs with a DVI/HDMI or give us some sort of waver and a box that will allow us to watch HD content through component. I have a Samsung DLP with an HDMI and DVI and there is no difference in quality over component. I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't buy my HDTV to watch down converted content. I bought it to watch High Definition.
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