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DVD Forum / NO Full Bandwidth HD over Component Analog Video - Page 3  

post #61 of 233
What does this mean for TV's with only DVI (HDCP) inputs? Will they allow that?
post #62 of 233
If you mean will an HDMI output be compatible with a DVI input with HDCP support then the answer is, I believe, yes. HDMI is pin-for-pin compatible with DVI digital - and HDCP is part of the HDMI spec - so if your DVI digital input is HDCP compatible then a simple cable or adaptor and cable will allow you to connect an HDMI output to your display's DVI connector. However HDMI has additional pins to carry audio that won't be useful for a video-only DVI input - so you'll need to take your audio from your source separately (I guess via Coax digital, Toslink or analogue?)
post #63 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000
It is interesting to see how 1394/iLink/Firewire appears to be popular in the US and Japan as an HD interconnect (carrying the compressed MPEG2 and possibly VC-1 or MPEG4 video).

It is likely that this will not be the case in Europe I suspect - Sky are not supporting it on their proprietary Sky+ PVR HD set top box due to launch next year... Shame - but I guess any route for digital HD to leave the "walled garden" - even if there is a degree of copy-protection - is less likely to be introduced on a new system unless it is legislated for.
Take a look at what DLNA is doing with DTCP/IP. It's really slick. Bye bye 1394.
post #64 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000
It is interesting to see how 1394/iLink/Firewire appears to be popular in the US and Japan as an HD interconnect (carrying the compressed MPEG2 and possibly VC-1 or MPEG4 video).

It is likely that this will not be the case in Europe I suspect - Sky are not supporting it on their proprietary Sky+ PVR HD set top box due to launch next year... Shame - but I guess any route for digital HD to leave the "walled garden" - even if there is a degree of copy-protection - is less likely to be introduced on a new system unless it is legislated for.
Take a look at what DLNA is doing with DTCP/IP. It's really slick. Bye bye 1394.
post #65 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by sneals2000
It is interesting to see how 1394/iLink/Firewire appears to be popular in the US and Japan as an HD interconnect (carrying the compressed MPEG2 and possibly VC-1 or MPEG4 video).

It is likely that this will not be the case in Europe I suspect - Sky are not supporting it on their proprietary Sky+ PVR HD set top box due to launch next year... Shame - but I guess any route for digital HD to leave the "walled garden" - even if there is a degree of copy-protection - is less likely to be introduced on a new system unless it is legislated for.
Take a look at what DLNA is doing with DTCP/IP. It's really slick. Bye bye 1394.
post #66 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
Take a look at what DLNA is doing with DTCP/IP. It's really slick. Bye bye 1394.
Yep - I think the issue is that Sky (in the UK) have always embraced "sealed box" solutions (they have locked down their receivers and PVRs with no outputs apart from baseband analogue video) - and have zero interest in providing useful features like Firewire compressed video, or conditional access modules to allow use of 3rd party receivers.

I suspect the only way we'll get anything other than HDCP encrypted digital video out of a Sky box in the UK is if there is legislation mandating it... (Unlikely - and even though there is EU legislation relating to conditional access - Sky still don't provide a CAM...)

Sky HD boxes are supposedly going to have a network connection on them - though it is thought that this is mainly to allow the use of broadband internet connections, rather than a telephone line and modem, as a back channel for interactive and authorisation purposes.

Hopefully the BBC HD broadcasts will, as their SD broadcasts are, be Free-to-air and unencrypted on satellite - so it will be possible to receive and record these using non-Sky equipment. If they use DVB-S2 rather than DVB-S modulation we'll need to wait for PC receiver cards that cope with this until we can use our HTPCs I guess though...

(Sky broadcast some tests last year in MPEG4 using DVB-S - and these weren't encrypted. People recorded these as transport streams and have been able to replay them on PCs with VLC etc.)
post #67 of 233
The only reason we have firewire in the US is that the FCC forced the cable companies (and only the cable companies) to do it. The usage base is pretty small for it.
post #68 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
Take a look at what DLNA is doing with DTCP/IP. It's really slick. Bye bye 1394.
Not untill everyone is running IP with the same QoS standard ... which isn't going to happen any time soon. Untill then, they'll both be used.
post #69 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dt_dc
That would be up to the manufacturer. Given the cost ... my guess would be no.

The manufacturer could also completely leave out 1394.

Or the manufacturer could simply send whatever codec is used on the disc out via 1394. 1394 isn't restricted to MPEG2. H.264 and VC-1 can be sent via 1394. There just aren't (currently) many other Firewire devices that can support them ... yet.

Huh, I'm not aware of any device (TV) that supports h.264 via 1394 now.

Yeah, I was aware that any content can be sent via 1394, it's just anything that would use 1394 out of the box today would be MPEG-2.

Interesting... So far my vote goes to blu-ray (only because they haven't released information that cripples the analog outputs) Not to mention sony IS is using mpeg-2. Which should make 1394 to todays components work.
post #70 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy
Interesting... So far my vote goes to blu-ray (only because they haven't released information that cripples the analog outputs) Not to mention sony IS is using mpeg-2. Which should make 1394 to todays components work.
Yep - AIUI current Sony BluRay recorders sold in Japan offer iLink connectivity (I think both ways) - though the second generation of BluRay being launched outside Japan will support MPEG4 and VC-1 AIUI.
post #71 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintit77
IMO Best Buy and CC will tell people that Component will work with the new DVD players to there TVs and people will buy the new HD-DVD player, hook it up over component and think its HD. I mean they tell people all the time that the only way they can recieve HD is over HDMI and DVI. They love selling those $150.00 Monster HDMI cables and when needed the DVI converter for $50.00. Those cables give them a 100% Margin. It costs them $50.00 Bucks for the cable and they sell them for $149.00 plus tax. I was in line at the customer service desk at my local BB two months ago. Behind me was a lady returning one of those $149.00 HDMI cables. She said it wouldn't work with he cable box. I asked her who the supplier was and she said Comcast. I said Comcast doesn't even turn on the DVI on the boxes. They only send a signal through component. She said the BB sales person told her that Comcast only uses an HDMI cable. I said, he was on crack and she laughed.
You must be one of these lurkers that just has it out for any CE retailer. Your logic for why they should be sued is completely flawed. We have no control over the inputs manufaturers put on their tv's. We have no control over whether the FCC and Hollywood get broadcast flags on material OTA or on high capacity discs.

I also could care less which cables people buy, so long as they know HOW to get HD and don't come back blaming us that their TV looks like crap when they aren't even subscribing to any sort of HD programming.
post #72 of 233
Don't argue with these people. One of them actually thought the FCC could be sued over this in addition to all CE manufacturers! (Just between you & me, I'd keep it secret from these folk that analog hi-def Japanese MUSE laserdiscs won't work on their HDTVs either! Quick, sue NHK too! They're in collusion with MPAA! If the evil CE companies had released analog HD laserdisc players, everything would be OK now!)

Notice how none of these guys have demanded lawsuits against the government & every company in existence requiring the immediate release of every movie these guys want on D-Theater--a system which exists NOW & is very nearly dead for new releases. A lawsuit forcing the release of everything on D-Theater is only marginally less stupid than one demanding that corporations redesign their proprietary new hidef disc systems. These people have no faith in the market at all to punish the corporations...
post #73 of 233
[/quote]If the evil CE companies had released analog HD laserdisc players, everything would be OK now!)[quote]That is funny. Especially since those same Japanese companies now have Blu-Ray players/recorders which DO output HD content via component outputs... :)

Then again, I am sure that the Studios will be able to shut them down once pre-recorded discs are available for playback with whatever "phone home" CP is also required. :(
post #74 of 233
Quote:
If the evil CE companies had released analog HD laserdisc players, everything would be OK now!)
That is funny. Especially since those same Japanese companies now have Blu-Ray players/recorders which DO output HD content via component outputs... :)

Then again, I am sure that the Studios will be able to shut them down once pre-recorded discs are available for playback with whatever "phone home" CP is also required. :(
post #75 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger999
Notice how none of these guys have demanded lawsuits against the government & every company in existence requiring the immediate release of every movie these guys want on D-Theater--a system which exists NOW & is very nearly dead for new releases. A lawsuit forcing the release of everything on D-Theater is only marginally less stupid than one demanding that corporations redesign their proprietary new hidef disc systems.
I won't even think about a class action, after this last nail, it's a NO SALE here! While I know it may not matter to the MPAA what I do, trust me NO MATTER what you and others like you say I'd buy a chipped player off shore, or NONE AT ALL, understand? YMMV, which it most likely does. BTW: I have D-VHS / D-Theater NOW and enjoy the hell out of it. :D
post #76 of 233
Long live D-VHS (especially the HM-DT100)!

HD over 1394 and component.

Paul
post #77 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by snatch
I also could care less which cables people buy, so long as they know HOW to get HD and don't come back blaming us that their TV looks like crap when they aren't even subscribing to any sort of HD programming.
Off topic, but I had to note this comment on your part. If this is indicative of what your sales people tell customers, it is not encouraging about the accuracy of what they're saying. Many of us here (myself included) are getting great HD pictures off-air without subscribingh to anything.
post #78 of 233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dacoop1
The new HD players will have component outs, but just won't pass HD resolutions through them. Do you really think that a sales guy on the floor of BestBuy is going to either accurately know this, accurately tell a potential customer about this, and be capable of accurately describing why this is? I envision a slew of people buying these new players not even realizing that they aren't getting full resolution. Do you think that the salespeople at BestBuy are telling people buying TVs now without a digital tuner are jumping at the chance to tell them that they won't be able to get OTA in a few years? Not unless they can upsell them to a more expensive TV. I think that the BestBuys are gonna love this, it'll give them another method of pushing the more expensive newer HDTVs.
I totally agree! If nothing else their should be adds run on TV, Newspapers and Magazines telling potential victims of this crime that they are getting screwed. I have personally seen first had the kind of sinister tactics BB and CC use to sell people stuff they don't even need. My favorite was from BB. They told this women that they only way her TV can recieve HD is from a DVI or HDMI cable. She used Comcast which doesn't even send a signal out of their DVI outputs on their set top boxes. Its just Bull ****. They are going to tell everyone that comes in their stores that HD-DVD will output HD over component. Lie, Lie, Lie.
I am going to send them an E-mail right now that I will be watching them.
post #79 of 233
I'm sure they're quaking in their shoes.

TM
post #80 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by snatch
You must be one of these lurkers that just has it out for any CE retailer. Your logic for why they should be sued is completely flawed. We have no control over the inputs manufaturers put on their tv's. We have no control over whether the FCC and Hollywood get broadcast flags on material OTA or on high capacity discs.

I also could care less which cables people buy, so long as they know HOW to get HD and don't come back blaming us that their TV looks like crap when they aren't even subscribing to any sort of HD programming.
While I don't trade at CC, I do at BB, it goes both ways, on topic example, when the first upconverting DVD players came out DVI output only for this feature the guy at BB told me the whole truth and I did not buy one, guess he figured he's make up the sale to me later on another item, guess what he was RIGHT!

The other side was almost too funny and sad to repeat here, it was a question about fixing a damaged D-VHS tape container, and I was told to do this in the dark as it would EXPOSE the tape and fog it, needless to say I left the store while I still had control of myself. ;-)

None the less more often than not at the BB store I trade at, does a good job, considering it's not some high end place, and they understand NO THANKS real well. YMMV.
post #81 of 233
The problem with a class action suit, as I see it is whom to sue (I am not a lawyer):
1). The device manufacturers seem to have no liability for products they did not build.
2). The MPAA did not build anything.
3). The manufacturers of our EXPENSIVE obsolete sets are not responsible either.

We need an offshore company to produce a box which provides multiple (selectable) HDMI inputs converted to one componet output.

If this could be done for as much as $1000, there would be lots of customers. I would be willing to bet that a lot of sets with HDMI inputs actually don't work with HDMI devices made by a different manufacturer; there will be a general need.
post #82 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Desmond
Off topic, but I had to note this comment on your part. If this is indicative of what your sales people tell customers, it is not encouraging about the accuracy of what they're saying. Many of us here (myself included) are getting great HD pictures off-air without subscribingh to anything.
Improper choice of wording on my part. I didn't mean subscribing as in exclusively paying- to get HD. When I said that I want people to understand HOW to get HD, that's what I meant- be it through Sat, Cable or OTA. I too get most of it OTA and one of the first things we tell customers because it's the biggest misunderstanding among your avg consumer with HDTV- is that in order to get 'this' (our in store feed) picture quality, you will need an HD signal of some type. Most people think all they need is an HDTV and walla...great picture. Then they go home, watch TBS on their basic cable and come back telling us the TV is broken, doesn't work right etc.

Seriously, all I care about is that our customers are informed with the basics of HDTV- they can choose what they do or don't want to buy.
post #83 of 233
Correction noted.

It's a sore point because too often I have had conversations with people who are very, very surprised by the idea that I am able to receive HD programming off-air without having to pay any sort of subscription fee.
post #84 of 233
I wonder how the talk will be at the CEDIA convention. Almost all custom install jobs require running long runs of video and the wires need to be terminated on-site. How many custom installers do you think terminate DVI or HDMI on-site. I would say very few to none. DVI cables can't be snaked at all. So most use RGBHV or YPbPR (Component). Boy this will be hilarious to watch, as the chaos surmounts.
post #85 of 233
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by snatch
You must be one of these lurkers that just has it out for any CE retailer. Your logic for why they should be sued is completely flawed. We have no control over the inputs manufaturers put on their tv's. We have no control over whether the FCC and Hollywood get broadcast flags on material OTA or on high capacity discs.

I also could care less which cables people buy, so long as they know HOW to get HD and don't come back blaming us that their TV looks like crap when they aren't even subscribing to any sort of HD programming.
Let me make this clear. I am out for any CE retailer that tells a customer or potential customer that they can only get HD through HDMI or DVI. I also have an issue with CE retailers telling potential HD-DVD Buyers that they can recieve 1080i and 720p over Component Video Cables to get the sale. I don't think we have to worry about CC because you don't sell Toshiba. I have sent CC an E-mail telling them that they need to inform their potential customers that the new HD-DVD players will not show 1080i or 720p which is called High Definition over Component. If you do tell potential customers that they can receive HD over Component Video Outputs on a HD-DVD player that costs $1000.00. Then yes you should be sued. I for one will be testing my local BB and CC and anyone else that sells HD-DVD players. Then I can get my Standard Definition (It Used to Be a High Definition TV until HD-DVD and the Broadcast Flag made it into a SDTV) 65 Inch CRT WIDESCREEN tv replaced for Free
post #86 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by paintit77
If you do tell potential customers that they can receive HD over Component Video Outputs on a HD-DVD player that costs $1000.00. Then yes you should be sued. I for one will be testing my local BB and CC and anyone else that sells HD-DVD players. Then I can get my Standard Definition (It Used to Be a High Definition TV until HD-DVD and the Broadcast Flag made it into a SDTV) 65 Inch CRT WIDESCREEN tv replaced for Free
You have started several threads on the subject of HD component video and many of your comments are pretty silly in my opinion but stating you are going to try to dupe a retailer into giving you a free HDTV is probably the silliest thing I have seen so far. I don't know of any retailers that are selling HDTVs now by telling customers that the HDTVs are going to play the upcoming HD discs in HD resolution over component video. Since you already seem to know that both of the formats are going to have the ability to restrict component video, you already know that any statements to the contrary made by the retailers are misleading and you can't be damaged by such statements. The proper thing to do is explain politely to any misinformed sales personnel, if you find one, what you understand.

All DTheater tapes and HVD discs play over component connections in HD but not very many titles anybody would find of interest are available in either format and I have both. If HD-DVD and Blu-ray allow all titles to play in HD resolution over analog connections, I am confident neither of those formats will have many titles of interest either. Nobody is trying to screw early adopters of analog input only HDTVs, the issue is one of control over software and protection by the law. The DMCA offers legal protection and there will never be any such protection by law or control over analog. You can continue to watch OTA, satellite and whatever else you are currently watching in HD with the old monitor and watch the new formats in 480p until you upgrade to a new monitor. Adding another format in 480p is hardly obsoleting your old monitor which will continue to work as it always did. If you bought your HDTV believing it would be able to play any possible future formats, you likely haven't been purchasing consumer video products very long. Formats come and go continually with this hobby and new formats often require new equipment to realize its full potential.

Chris
post #87 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Gerhard
You have started several threads on the subject of HD component video and many of your comments are pretty silly in my opinion but stating you are going to try to dupe a retailer into giving you a free HDTV is probably the silliest thing I have seen so far. Chris
Come on Chris, we all know your very pro MPAA, for what ever reason, your welcome to your opinion, but to me the downrez of the AUDIO is the last straw, this HD Optical is DOA, wait for it! Pay all you like, it will COST you way more! ROFLOL, looser! :)
post #88 of 233
We know of several players that upconvert DVD's that are easliy upgraded to do this over component. I now am the owner of one such unit.

This is not in line with the DVD Forum, so how do such things happen?? Is it an accident or an "added feature" that is hidden?? If it is meant to happen, will there some of the next generation players also have these "added features"??
post #89 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843
We know of several players that upconvert DVD's that are easliy upgraded to do this over component. I now am the owner of one such unit.

This is not in line with the DVD Forum, so how do such things happen?? Is it an accident or an "added feature" that is hidden?? If it is meant to happen, will there some of the next generation players also have these "added features"??
Current DVD players run all their code on a single CPU that is easily accessible, so easier to hack. And some manufacturers are living on a very thin edge.

On the BD and HD-DVD players, only application code runs on the CPU. The DRM code to control what the analog/digital audio/video outputs do is on a separate security CPU, not generally/easily accessible and it will run only properly encrypted/signed DRM code. Plus the DRM code fron one player will not run on another player. Since the player manufacturers will only be developing on the application CPU, and not the security CPU, the ability of them to add backdoor features is greatly reduced.

A very big and very hard club will come down on any company that intentially adds a backdoor to override any DRM rules. Smaller companies would not survive financially.
post #90 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack
Current DVD players run all their code on a single CPU that is easily accessible, so easier to hack. And some manufacturers are living on a very thin edge.

On the BD and HD-DVD players, only application code runs on the CPU. The DRM code to control what the analog/digital audio/video outputs do is on a separate security CPU, not generally/easily accessible and it will run only properly encrypted/signed DRM code. Plus the DRM code fron one player will not run on another player. Since the player manufacturers will only be developing on the application CPU, and not the security CPU, the ability of them to add backdoor features is greatly reduced.

A very big and very hard club will come down on any company that intentially adds a backdoor to override any DRM rules. Smaller companies would not survive financially.
depends on what country thier in..... *crosses Fingers* what really pisses me off is that most tvs only have 1 HDMI input ......
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