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the definitive Grafik Eye master thread!! - Page 3

post #61 of 1342
8/13/05 at 8:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblueline View Post

Thanks for the great info on the Grafik Eye, the suggestion of the mason box will save me some headaches later. I am just getting ready to drywall and it would have been a pain to find out the 3 gang plastic box I have installed is too small.

I have a 3000 series 3 zone Grafik Eye that I will be installing in the room. I know the GE will take dimming commands from a remote. However I was wondering if the remote has to be directly pointed at the unit for it to work. My GE will be at a 90 degree angle from the seating postions. I was hoping to use a good Harmony remote or the like to run my audio/video equipment and use the macros to dim the lights while starting the movies. If the remote is pointed towards the front of the room at the AV stuff will it still be able to dim the lights, or is line of site a must with the built in IR of the GE.

I have read about IR repeaters. Are these special or specific to Lutron and GE or are there 3rd party vendors that make these for the GE. My wiring skills are pretty basic. Right now the GE is wired with one power line into the box, a common neutral for the GE and then each zone running out to the cans. Is an IR repeater (or I've also read they might be called "IR blasters") something I need and is it difficult to install?

Thanks for all the great info. I'm just finishing up insulation of the room and still have time to correct anything I overlooked.

I would like to know the answer to this as well - I also want to control my lights with sceens from the Grafik eye and all my rack A/V from the same remote. I'm guessing you will need a IR repeater to do this.

gary
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post #62 of 1342
8/16/05 at 3:32pm
There are a couple of Lutron accessories - notably GRX-CIR - that relay commands to the GE using the data link.

You can also use IR repeaters, but it's tricky to get the emitter inside the GE cover. There are a couple of recent threads on this. Use Search.
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post #63 of 1342
8/19/05 at 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post

There are a couple of Lutron accessories - notably GRX-CIR - that relay commands to the GE using the data link.

You can also use IR repeaters, but it's tricky to get the emitter inside the GE cover. There are a couple of recent threads on this. Use Search.

If I put the Grafik Eye in the front of the theater, there is no need for an emitter inside the cover - right? Any remote will trigger the Grafik eye with line of sight to resolve this.

Gary
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post #64 of 1342
8/20/05 at 11:57pm
In general, yes. But check the IR photometrics in the GE Specs document. There's a surprisingly narrow angle of incidence.
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post #65 of 1342
8/21/05 at 5:58am
OK will do. Looks like I will run a emmitter to the grafik eye anyway since the walls are open (just in case). never hurts to be prepared.

thanks for the info,

gary
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post #66 of 1342
8/21/05 at 3:59pm
There is one part in this thread I am curious about"

"You can also use a zone in switch mode as a programmabe relay to trigger fans, window shades, screens, lifts,etc., although there are better ways to achieve this IMO."

I will be installing a motorized shade to cover a window and wanted to be able to control this via my remote. I thought about using one of the zones on a Graffik Eye to do this (just open or closed).

What are the better ways you elude to?

Dave
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post #67 of 1342
8/22/05 at 8:28am
I was a little mystified about reference to the "switch mode" so I did some research:

When you set up a zone in the GE, you enter load type. (The type defaults to Incandescent/MLV so it's rarely changed.) Two options are NON-DIM, where the GE simply acts as a switch. Any scheduled output turns the zone ON; no output turns it OFF.

Note: These are not momentary ONs. The circuit is powered so long as the zone is ON at any level.
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post #68 of 1342
8/22/05 at 9:49am
Any idea if this also an option with a flourescent light (or in my case, a movie marque)? I'd like the GE to turn the marquee on/off as per scene.
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post #69 of 1342
8/22/05 at 11:47am
Yes, but there's this note:

Quote:


â–  Fluorescent non-dim loads with electronic or magnetic ballast must use: a GRX-TVI interface ... or ... HP 2*4*6 ...
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post #70 of 1342
8/22/05 at 11:53am
When using the Lutron GRX-CBL-346S Class 2/PELV cable to wire accessory controls, there is a jacketless 24 AWG drain wire in the shielded bundle. This wire is not shown in any of the wiring diagrams, so what to do with it? After receiving two apparently incomplete answers (one from Lutron Tech Support) I stumbled across this on p.5 of the Installer's Guide for Models MR and IA, under 'Installing Accessory Controls, Mounting':
Quote:



3. Connect two ... pairs for Class 2/PELV wiring (daisy-chain between stations).

If shielded wire is used, the drain wire must also be daisy-chained. Do not connect drain wire to earth/ground or Accessory Control (unless a "D" terminal is present).
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post #71 of 1342
8/22/05 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMF View Post


I think the MSRP on the 3506 is $1150.

To add PC and RS-232 interfaces to the 3500 series one needs the GRX-PRG for about $800. It combines the RS-232 interface with a real-time clock so that the 3500 control unit can be programmed by a PC (Lutron has lighting control programs) and scheduled like a timer. One GRX-PRG can be used with up to 8 control units.

I just called a place to find out about programming the 3506. They are not aware of this GRX-PRG needed to program the 3506. They obviously don't know what they are selling and are useless.

Do you have any link to info on this GRX-PRG? What kind of hardware is this? If this is true and the cost of purchasing the 3506 is an additional $800, then it makes more sense to program at the unit with the 3106.

thanks for any info DMF,

Gary
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post #72 of 1342
8/22/05 at 10:22pm
GaryKagan,

The GRX-PRG is an external box tha add's RS-232 control & timer functions.

BE CAREFUL! I told my installer I wanted to control the system via RS-232 and he installed a RS-232 add on, not the PRG. Only the PRG can control individual zones- the standard RS-232 controller is limited to controlling scene's only.

Here's a link to the basic documentation: documentation

control is very easy, and it uses the same commands as the standard rs-232, plus new commands to set the timer functions and individual zone control.
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post #73 of 1342
8/23/05 at 6:31am
Thanks, looks like I will stick with the 3106, program scenes at the unit and call it a day. Keeps it in budget that way...

thanks all,

Gary
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post #74 of 1342
8/24/05 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by orbitzboy View Post

GaryKagan,
BE CAREFUL! I told my installer I wanted to control the system via RS-232 and he installed a RS-232 add on, not the PRG. Only the PRG can control individual zones- the standard RS-232 controller is limited to controlling scene's only.

Does one need the GRX-PRG to set the lighting in 1% increments or just for timed events and individual zone control?

Does anyone know (or know of a chart or website that compares) the features of the GRX-PRG vs. the GRX-IA-232 ?
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post #75 of 1342
8/24/05 at 8:40am
The Spec Sheet PDFs of each list the features.

The Liaison software is (obviously) designed to work with the -PRG, but the -232 command set seems to be a subset, so it might work too. If I get some time today I'm going to try it.

Only way to tell for sure on the 1% control is to look at the -232 command set. (See Lutron tech page for that document.)
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post #76 of 1342
8/24/05 at 11:05am
This PDF show's the commands available to both the RS232 & the PRG.

You can make your own decision if the -232 command set is enough. It wasn't for me.

http://www.vimco.com/onespec/applica...3k4k_RS232.pdf
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post #77 of 1342
8/24/05 at 2:21pm
Use this one on the Lutron web site. The one on the vimco site is 1998 vintage.

I tried to talk to the -232, but of all the orphan wall warts, I don't have a single 12VDC. But I did play with the Liaison application. It doesn't seem to want to talk to a -232, or do much of anything with a 3100 series GE. It may not be useful for this.
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post #78 of 1342
8/24/05 at 9:57pm
Okay, got the -232 powered and talking via the Liason software's Terminal Mode. No devices hooked in, so I can't programmatically change scenes (e.g.). It understands NONE of the -PRG commands, returning errors on all.

The -232 parts of the command set is pretty limited. You can:
  • report or set the scene on a control unit,
  • sequence through scene groups (1-4 or 5-16, no combos),
  • raise or lower a specific zone (NOT set X intensity, just Start/Stop Lowering or Raising),
  • get the firmware version.
That's all!

Frankly, I don't find it useful for a small installation.
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post #79 of 1342
8/25/05 at 3:44am
Let me muck up the waters a bit ...
The Lutron PRG is $800 ... you're going to get a $1000 pronto system (ok, maybe a bit less).
You can get a Crestron ST-LT for $600, a Crestron CP2 for $800 ... now all you need is a touch panel and you can control your entire HT system and eventually integrate HVAC and whole house functions over time. Hummmm
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post #80 of 1342
8/25/05 at 9:27am
Darn you, Erskine!


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post #81 of 1342
8/27/05 at 9:24pm
Thread Starter 
I don't see how the savings of $50 or so of the GRX-232 vs. the GRX-PRG is that big of a deal, but if you don't care about the astronomical clock, save the money.

DMF, using Liason is not really intended for our market... and a GRX-232 or GRX-PRG will not work with a 3100 series GRX.

The real value is to be able to use the GRX-232 (or GRX-PRG) to allow a 3500 series GRX to accept serial commands from a controller like the ones commonly used in theater and whole house installs from AMX, Crestron, and RTI.

Even with a modestly priced RTI RP-6, you can send commands for any combination of zones from one to all to dim to any percentage from 1% to 99% over any duration from 1 second to

I agree with Dennis that pushing the state of the art with GRX is a little short sighted compared to getting started with a real control system (like AMX or Crestron) and a real lighting control system (like Lutron HomeWorks Interactive).
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post #82 of 1342
8/27/05 at 9:35pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by HendersonD View Post

There is one part in this thread I am curious about"

"You can also use a zone in switch mode as a programmabe relay to trigger fans, window shades, screens, lifts,etc., although there are better ways to achieve this IMO."

I will be installing a motorized shade to cover a window and wanted to be able to control this via my remote. I thought about using one of the zones on a Graffik Eye to do this (just open or closed).

What are the better ways you elude to?

Dave

You can implement contact closures and voltage triggers more effectively through just about any level of automation system that can be triggered by other sources and not just as a part of lighting scenes.

Models from Xantech & RDL Labs are among the reasonably priced solutions that are pretty easy to implement with any level of remote.

AMX and Crestron have relays directly on the controllers for anyone at that level.
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post #83 of 1342
8/28/05 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cinemascope View Post

... a GRX-232 ... will not work with a 3100 series GRX.

The Lutron GRX-RS232 docs disagree with you. They claim compatibility with "Grafik Eye 3000 and 4000 Series Control Units", and the wiring diagram (p.4) shows it connected to a 3103. I could hook mine up and try it if you really want...

Otherwise, I see the point about using a real control system. I really only purchased this to play with, and now see what I have learned.


Btw, I don't get your point about the relative cost of the -232 and the -PRG. I picked up the -232 for about $150. Cheapest I've seen the -PRG is almost $800 (although I haven't priced it through my wholesaler). Can it be had for $200 or so?
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post #84 of 1342
8/28/05 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 
The comment was based on a retail price of $750 for the GRX-232 in Lutron's price sheet.

I don't know if there has been a massive price shift or if you benefitted from some sort of closeout, but even dealer and distributor pricing is significantly higher than what you paid.

Personally, I would love to buy a GRX-232 for $150....

The compatibility with the 3100 series is not guaranteed, but it may work.

You certainly cannot access 1% dimming increments or zone specific dimming, because the 3100 will not support these functions at all.

If it works at all, it will likely be a carbon copy of the IR control, and you may be able to access status through the GRX-232 to a touchscreen if that's the way you use it.

The 3500 series will definitely allow status with a GRX-232.
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post #85 of 1342
8/29/05 at 10:11am
I picked up my GRX-3106 during fixture sales for the Ultimate Electronics closures in Dallas. The 3106 was linked to a GRX-232 which I picked up as well. Haven't hooked them up yet, but given that UE had it hooked up this way, and documentation indicates so, the -232 should be compatible with the 3100 series. I have a small HT I am buidling (13x18). Trying to figure out if I really have a use for the GRX-232.

Regards,
Bob
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post #86 of 1342
8/29/05 at 10:17am
Will your HT be PC controlled?

If so, serial communication is great for automating the process.
5 minute warning flashes the lights on a zone or two
Starting the movie turns off lights
Pausing the movie brings up a low-light scene.
stopping the movie brings up the house lights, etc...

I've set up my home theater intro video to include a lighting demonstration (pointing out the speaker's, bringing up the star field, flashing lights on a lightning strike etc...).

IMHO it adds a level of professioinalism that differentiates the experience.
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post #87 of 1342
9/2/05 at 8:00am
My NTGRX-4S-IV wall unit always has all 4 LED's lit. From reading the 3106 manual, it appears that only the scene selected should be lit.

Do I need the 3106 to be set to A-, 5 and 6 to be in the up position with the wall unit set to 5 and 6 in the down position?

Come to think of it, the wall unit has never really indicated it communicates with the 3106, although I can select a button there and program it at the 3106. Sounds like they are on different scenes.

And a real bugger is the universal remote codes don't seem to trigger anything other than a zone 5 on the 3106.

Why don't one of you come over to program these for me. The manual is not much help after the 10th reading. argh
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post #88 of 1342
9/2/05 at 9:42pm
Thread Starter 
With gas prices the way they are, a service call to Michigan could cost a pretty penny, let's see if we can walk you though this...

I don't like to assume anything, but for this I will assume that you have used the correct MUX cable between the NT-GRX-4S Wallstation and the GRX and that the connections were made according to the instructions in the Installation Guides...

It sounds like your issues revolve around addressing your Wallstation and getting it to communicate to the GRX.

Here is the description for how to accomplish this in straightforward language:

Step One: Address the Wallstation
If the dipswitches 1-4 on the NT-GRX-4S are all up, that means you are addressing that wall control as "location #1". If you only have one wallstation, then this is what you want.

(If you have multiple wallstations connected to the GRX, assign them each their own location number by referencing the dipswitch settings on page 4 of the GRX Wallstation Installation Guide)
http://www.lutron.com/instructions/030814a.pdf.

Step Two: Address the GRX
Put the GRX into setup mode by pressing the "Scene 1" and "Off" buttons simultaneously for 3-4 seconds.

Flip up the cover and scroll through the Setup modes with the arrows in the FADE box, watching the readout on the LED window which is also in the FADE box.
Once it reads "A-", you are at the Address menu. (if it reads Sd, Sc, LS, or LC, keep scrolling up or down with the FADE arows)

To take it out of default A- mode ad assign and dedicated address, press the "master up" arrow button which is just to the right of the LED display to set it to A1, A2, A3, etc. (do NOT press the the FADE arrow buttons directly below the LED display, as you will be scrolling through Setup options again)

Take the GRX out of setup mode by pressing the same combination you used to put it into setup mode.

Step Three: Initialize Communication between the GRX and the Wallstation(s)
Now, go to the NT-RX and put it into "talk" mode by pressing the scene 1 ad scene 4 buttons simultaneously for 3-4 seconds.

When it is in "Talk" mode, press the scene 1 button on the GRX (make sure the GRX is NOT in setup mode before you start this process)
Pressing the Scene 1 button tells the GRX to "Listen" to the Wallstation(s) that are in "Talk" mode at that time.

Take the NT-GRX-4S out of "Talk" mode using the same button press combination you used to put it into "Talk" mode.

Setting the scenes for the Wallstation to control
If dipswitches 5 and 6 on the NT-GRX-4S are both up, then your NT-GRX-4S will mimic the front panel buttons on the GRX and they will both control Scenes 1-4 that you have programmed into the GRX.

(If you have more scenes programmed in the GRX, and you would like the NT-GRX-4S to control Scenes 5-8, 9-12, or 13-16 instead of 1-4, then you can adjust the dipswitch settings according to the chart at the top of page 5 of the Grafik Eye Wallstation Installation Guide.

You are done.
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post #89 of 1342
9/3/05 at 5:19am
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Everything worked except the 3106 needed to stay at A-, not A1.

I even reprogrammed my MX700 to work now.

Now onto macros!
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post #90 of 1342
9/3/05 at 8:09am
Thread Starter 
I'm glad it worked out for you.

About the A- vs. A1 setting, I was under the impression that we always had to address every GRX with a unique A(*) address when using any accessory controls.

As they say, "if it ain't broke..."
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