HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 6

I love my RP CRT even more after reading this thread.

Wow, this thread was almost EXACTLY what I was looking for. Thanks for all the great info fubarduck.

I'm looking at buying a DLP "projector". Can I assume that the same technology and lag issues will be at work on a projector as they would in a DLP-based set?

I'm trying to decide between LCD and DLP projector and my budget is around $5k. I won't tolerate lag, but if I can spend $2-3k on a projector and another $2k on a scaler or some other solution to this problem, that works just fine for me.

Fubarduck: Do you have any opinions on how projectors coupled with scalers handle the lag issue? Or just (newer) LCD/DLP projectors in general in the $3-5k range?

Thanks!

GPF.

Have any of you ever tried or seen a scaler like this?

Copy and paste this exact title and search for it on google and you'll bring up a website that has it. "Ultra 5x3 Multi-Format Video Scaler Switcher with TV Tuner". (AVS won't let me post a link yet)

Why wouldn't this scaler work? I welcome any opinions on this scaler.

Also, GoldenSilver

What I was trying to say was wouldn't it be better to put the XBOX's display at 480p even though my TV will display in 1080i because if I have the XBOX set to 1080i and I play a 480p game then it actually otputs 480i. Seems like I should keep it on 480p so that it will output 480p because supposedly the hardest thing for the TV to do is upconvert a 480i signal and that is where most of the lag comes from? What do you think? I mean it sounds counter productive to set the XBOX to display in 1080i if it just outputs most everything at 480i. Thanks again.

Thanks for the great info everyone! I'm in the market for an HDTV and thought I knew enough. Nope.

Quick question for anyone who has an idea or opinion...

How will the new Sony XBR2 line of LCos HDTVs' fair in the lag category?

They are coming out around the same time as the PS3 and I'm assuming they must be engineering the XBR2's around the PS3. It may be too soon to know anything but one would think they would want the XBR2 to show off the full horsepower of the PS3 (considering the PS3 needs an additional edge on the 360 to justify its higher price, besides BD)

I realize since there not out we can only guess, but I was hoping someone might have an opinion. ($7800 for the 70in xbr2 is alot of dough for a lag problem)

You would think, but I wouldn't assume that. I believe the display and game console are two separate branches of Sony. I have heard problems with Sony components not working together as they should.

With that said - the XBR2's look like they will be very nice displays. If the lag is as minimal as my XS955 they should work great with the PS3.

Anybody heard about lag on the new lcd 1080p tv's with ps2 and the original xbox.
if i have a dvd player putting out at 480i will it also lag?
i know there wont be lag from my pc but thats about it, not too sure i want a 2,000 dollar monitor since it would be useless to me with lag.........

There will be some form of lag no matter what when taking anything but 1080p and displaying it on a 1080p TV.

So your PS2, Xbox, and DVD player will all lag if they are only outputting 480i or 480p resolutions.

anyone try the XRGB 3 that NCS is selling yet?

This is a great thread and I appreciate furbark for creating it and all the great input that has gone into it. I am now, however, wondering if I should even get an HDTV. I want to get an Xbox 360 and experience it in all of its 720p/1080i glory, but I also have a large library of retro games. Namely for my NEO GEO and Saturn. I was considering going DLP, but that is off now, considering the reports with lag reaching upwards of a quarter second. LCD the way to go? I am also struggling with the 1080p decision. I want to future proof my TV, but is the extra money really worth it? Won't 1080i just tide us over?

Big Ev,

I can't speak to your HDTV questions, but I can make a recommendation for your Neo Geo, Saturn, and all older game systems: use an SD display.

It may seem counterintuitive but HD is not always the best solution, and it's certainly not for old, low-res video games. The vast majority of console games before the Dreamcast appeared ran in what might be called 240p, the form of 480i that looks progressive and has scanlines. Systems like Neo Geo and Saturn displayed their graphics at 320x240 or below, and were intended to be viewed with scanlines. The scanlines soften the jagged edges of these low-res images so that they actually look pretty good.

In comparison, an HDTV (and fixed-pixel displays in general) cannot display these low-res signals in their native format; it has to process and modify the image, which always means line-doubling and usually means additional effects which vary by HDTV model. This results in a 480p image devoid of scanlines. In their place are duplicated lines, so each pixel looks twice as tall. It's akin to viewing a game on a PC-based console emulator. Along with motion shearing and other possible artifacts, the end result is not pretty in my opinion, though it's definitely a judgment call.

In addition, the HDTV's signal upscan process runs the risk of introducing processing time, which will be noticed as input lag. Obviously, this is to be avoided at all costs, and varies by HDTV model.

I could not live with the compromises inherent in retro gaming on an HDTV, so I sought out a superb RGB-compatible Sony CRT (KV-29DS65) that I finagled out of Japan. Analog RGB was the best signal type possible before Component appeared, and is what arcade games use (or used to). With my RGB setup for old games and soon a solid HDTV for Xbox and later, I'll be all set.

For more info on retro game RGB stuff I recommend the GamesX forum (check Google). It's down at this specific moment, but should return whenever. Essential resource.

Edit: I should add, there is a possible middle-of-the-road solution. You could use the Micomsoft XRGB-2 (described in this thread's first post) to upscan your old consoles' 480i/240p RGB to 480p VGA. The XRGB-2s have a "fake scanline" feature that draws black lines over every other line. It's a fair effect, better in the later XRGB-2+ models than the old non-plus ones. It's not perfect, but could well be good enough to get your game on.

BJT, nice post, and I agree completely. Also, thank you for the references -- they should come in handy.

Sure thing. Nice to see other old-school RGB enthusiasts around here.

I've done some testing of HDTVs, 12 displays tested so far.

My test is rather crude and has a fairly large margin of error, but it's consistent across all the displays I've tested so the results should be at least comparable with each other.

If you're interested in seeing the results, check out hdtvlag_dot_googlepages_dot_com. (sorry for the _dots_ but I'm within the 5 post minimum and the forums won't let me post a straight-up URL, which is unfortunate because I really think this is relevant.)

As an aside, I picked up an LG 42LC2D. Contrast ratio sucks and image quality could be better, but it was one of the fastest displays I tested. After being burned the first time around with a Samsung purchase, I wasn't looking to compromise speed for anything else.

Here is the same link for those who are interested:
http://hdtvlag.googlepages.com/

Nice work on this. There are some quite interesting results in there. I'm curious, on some of the TVs that have a "Game Mode", were you able to see if the lag was any less?

My experience with game mode has generally been that it does nothing more than drop the brightness and contrast slightly.
Regardless, all the tests were actually conducted with game mode on and as much of the image processing turned off as possible to try and get the display to perform as fast as it possibly could.
An interesting note though, if you take a look at the Toshiba 37HL86 results, I've got scores for it in 16:9 and 4:3. You can see just how much time is spent on the scaling routine alone by comparing the two results for that model.

I have read through a good portion of this thread but I would like a definitive answer (if there is one). I would like to buy a new HD TV in the 50" or so size. I had read a good deal about picture quality for movies and HD shows so I thought I was on my way to a plasma. I know my teenagers are going to want to play their Xbox on this new tv and are hoping for an Xbox 360 in the future. Based on this thread, is the older technology of a rear projection CRT tv less likely to lag than new plasma and lcd tv's? It won't be much fun to buy a new 360 if the large screen tv doesn't play it well. If RP CRT tv's do a better job of gaming, it looks like I'll be back to square one researching RP CRT's.

Thanks,

Scott

Scott,
CRT HDTVs aren't really any better off when you're talking about the actual video processing being the culprit of the lag. Anytime it has to scale or perfect the image, it's going to add some processing time.
As for the Xbox360, the theory has been that if the TV is running in a native HDTV resolution, the upscaling routine isn't required and the lag should essentially disappear (this wasn't the case with the Samsung I purchase initially however, so make sure you look for this sort of thing). Although I don't believe the lag can ever be completely gone (read the 'theory' section on my hdtvlag site) it can at least be minimized.
The question at this point would be, is that 'good enough'?
As for a definitive answer, the very nature of the problem is that it's subjective. The majority of the people that I've discussed this with write me off as being overly anal about the issue. I see it differently however, I'm not looking to drop thousands of dollars on something that isn't adequate for what I want to do.
I think BJT's post above is the most definitive. If you want to play older consoles, grab a nice SD CRT and don't worry about it. The newer consoles that run in hdtv native modes will probably run fine on most HDTVs.
Again, it's a subjective problem. Just test everything thoroughly before you commit.

Thanks for the reply Kernon.

I've learned alot about plasma, lcd's and microdisplays by reading this forum but often my head swims with all the technical reading so I'm often left feeling more confused. Kind of like getting an answer to one question which opens the door for three more!

Anyway, I've been slow to plunk down $2,000-$2,500 for a new HD tv without feeling more confident of my choice. I've been reading some on the RP CRT's and I may give some thought to buying a RP CRT for $1,000 now and wait until next year to buy a newer technology tv when prices drop more and a few more bugs are worked out.

Scott

Just keep in mind that the problem isn't necessarily LCD vs Plasma vs CRT. It's a problem with HDTV as a whole. The best you can do is minimize the lag.
The interesting point about my experience was that if you were just watching tv/dvd, you'd never know the difference. It was the gaming that I noticed the problem.
So take a good look at your needs and if letting your kids play xbox on it is important, than by all means take that into consideration. But if you're not looking to play games on it yourself, you might be better off telling the kids to save up for their own tv.

Yeah, I still haven't solved this problem myself either. I keep my 27" TV hooked up next to my 50" DLP. It seems the XRGB2 will do what I want when I get around to ordering one. I'm curious to see if this Xploder thing works too.

Previously I'd tested a generic PS2 VGA adapter (Redant) and an iScan Plus without any success in reducing lag. Then I got tired of buying hardware...

Cush

All the fixed pixel engine displays can have lag issues, it just "happens" to show up more freqently with DLP sets. To be safe you need to find out how the specific model you want behaves with what you plan to use on it connected the way you plan to connect it. A DLP display with nasty lag via analog inputs may have no lag issues with a 1080i digital input via DVI/HDMI.

Can someone please help me out. This is driving me crazy. I am looking at the Samsung HL-S4666W 46" DLP. Does anyone have this TV? Does it lag with 480i? I want the TV for my 360 and the Nintendo Wii when I get one. I also would like to play some older consoles on it and thats where im worried about the lag. Anyone use this tv?

If not the Samsung, im thinking of getting the Sony KDF-E42A10 LCD.

JustinSane, I haven't tested those models specifically, but Sony and Samsung generally speaking were among the slowest displays I tested.
If you're looking for speed, I recommend going with LG, JVC, Panasonic or Phillips.
Depending on your size requirements, you can start cutting manufacturers pretty quickly as I don't believe Panasonic or Phillips make a screen larger than 37".

I read somewhere I can't remember if it was Olevia or Westinghouse, maybe both, it said that they use the LG screens on their tvs. If this is true it should be as fast as the LG tvs right?

By the way, thank you for doing those tests. Because of that page I didn't make the mistake of just buying whatever HDTV I could and expect it to not lag.

I recently ordered a 56 inch Samsung 1080p DLP (HL-S5687W). I drug my PS2 and a copy of Frequency (rhythm game) to Circuit City to give it a run through first. With the game mode off, Frequency was unplayable. But with the game mode turned on, there was no noticeable lag at all. Also tested Gran Turismo 4. I'm a pretty hardcore gamer, and I realize that the testing scenario wasn't ideal ( standing up, music blasting in store), but I think it was just fine. I'll know for certain when I get the set home.

I'm about to purchase the Sharp LC-32D40U Aquos 32" to be used almost exclusively for gaming. Initially I'll have it hooked up to an original XBOX with 480p but soon will be upgrading it to work with the X360 or Wii.

Does anyone have experience with this set and its gaming? Its spec says the response time is just 6ms which seems quite good.

My main concern is that I want to make sure there is no lag. I will not be playing any 480i games - mainly just 480p or 720p/1080i. What do you guys think? Thanks!

lovingdvd:
Sorry, don't have any details on that LCD specifically. Just wanted to clarify something about response time and input lag.

AFAIK response time on LCDs is not really relevant to the gaming input lag we're talking about here. A poor LCD response time will lead to noticeable image blurring (which is bad, yes), but not the discernably slow response to controller input which is being discussed here. Controller input lag is generally caused by the image processing the TV does to the console's video signal before it displays it, the details of which have little to no relation to an LCD's 6ms response time rating.

By the way, manufacturers play fast and loose when quoting LCD response times, so don't take that 6ms spec as gospel. Real-world performance could look less impressive, so try to take the set for a test drive.

Sounds good, although I will still probably go to tweeter and test for myself. I was looking at getting a HL-S5088W and I am pleased to hear that the game mode fixes the delay.

edit: Went to tweeter and the putz there said he had never heard of anything like this and fefused to let me test it out. I kindly made my exit and headed over to Circuit City. Well sadly they were remodeling that section so the displays were all moved and not hooked up . Then I went to Best Buy and they don't have the 88's yet but I was willing to test a 87. Too bad they didn't have a HL-S5087W on display. Although the employee who was helping me insisted that if you use the component video cables for the PS2 that it does the up-converting for the TV. Is this a nice piece of mis-information? I kindly explained to him that not all PS2 games support 480p/1080i. I offered to show him the delay on one of the display models but I think he was getting tired of assisting and declined.

I think I am just going to order a HL-S5087W for a nice price and hope for the best...

I definitely feel the RGB love. I have custom cables I made for my NEO GEO to hook up to the RGB inputs on an old Sony PVM I have