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HDTVs and Video Game Lag: The Problem and the Solution. - Page 3

post #61 of 718
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleCard View Post

How do you know for certain that in the scenarios above a Samsung DLP would not try to perform some type of picture enhancement (color / sharpness), or put the signal through the DNIe pipeline that would still result in some form of lag, even on native resolutions??

Unfortunately, you may be right, but we have no way of knowing since Samsung doesn't reveal the processing delay times. However, I think you can probably rest assured that the big problem of noticeable lag is coming from the scaling of resolutions and not from native image processing.

As I have stated in this and other threads countless times, go to your local HDTV dealer and TEST the games that you want to play on the HDTV you are interested in buying. Even if you have to make a long trip to do this, it's better than making such an expensive gamble with a blind Internet purchase.

Finally, if you are interested in buying an HDTV with the sole intent of playing a next-gen system (such as 360 or PS3) I would definitely wait until you actually own the console before buying the HDTV. We don't even know if there is going to be a standard resolution for all games on these new consoles yet! It is pretty certain that X-Box 360 will be displaying all games at 720p but that still has yet to be fully confirmed IIRC.
post #62 of 718
Add me to the list of frustrated people who own a samsung dlp. I played halo2 at my brother in law's house last night and couldn't believe the difference...it literally was a different game without the lag. Sniping was once again a joy. If lag is still prevalent at 720p my tv is gone, one way or another.
post #63 of 718
One thing I will add is I am having my set professionally calibrated in two weeks, and one of the things he already mentioned he's doing is disabling the DNIE. When I get a better explanation on why this is I will pass it along.
post #64 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLP-Lag View Post

One thing I will add is I am having my set professionally calibrated in two weeks, and one of the things he already mentioned he's doing is disabling the DNIE. When I get a better explanation on why this is I will pass it along.


Can you let us know if calibration fixes the lag problem?
post #65 of 718
Fubarduck, you aren't entirely correct with your statement that avoiding the TV's scaler is the solution to lag problems. The following items also add lag time:

Analog to Digital Converter
De-Interlacer / Interlacer

Display Type Specifics:
CRT: Electron Beam Travel
LCD and Plasma: Crystal Charge Time
DLP: Mirror Movement Time

Until a game console comes with a purely digital output there is no way to bypass the A/D Converter.

The interlacer/de-interlacer can be bypassed by keeping the consoles output (progressive or interlaced) the same as your set's native display.

And of course you hit on setting the console's resolution output to most closely match that of your television to bypass the scaler or decrease it's processes. I just thought people should be aware that while your article is quite informative and is correct the information presented, however the scaler is not the only, or even the main source of lag.
post #66 of 718
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Posi View Post

-snip-
And of course you hit on setting the console's resolution output to most closely match that of your television to bypass the scaler or decrease it's processes. I just thought people should be aware that while your article is quite informative and is correct the information presented, however the scaler is not the only, or even the main source of lag.

Sorry if I didn't make it clearer before, but I'm not an A/V expert but a gamer who dabbles in A/V. Unfortunately there are not enough people who are experts in both, hence the amount of ignorance present about this problem.

However, on the TV's that I have dealt with by actual testing by playing video games that I know exact timings for, outputting a 480p signal has happened to always fix that problem for me.

I'm sure what you say is true, as some people claim to own LCDs with some wacky native resolution that doesn't lag on any source at all. That is also why I emphasized that people ought to go to the store and test products before they buy them. Since we are all so uneducated on the subject, our only choice really is to make sure the products work before we buy them. It's quite unfortunate that we even HAVE to do that, but sadly there is no other choice. It's not so bad since most of us here only buy a new TV every few years.
post #67 of 718
Everything technically adds lag time. You might as well factor in the time the controller's button makes contact with the circuit board, down the wire, through the console, out to the display and on the screen.

The tested result seems to be that source signals 480p and up eliminate lag to the point where people don't notice and that's what's important.

Cush
post #68 of 718
Ok, I have read quite a bit about this lag issue. I have a recently purchased Samsung HLR4667W. I am very happy with the TV with the exception of the lag! I have a modified xbox (X3 mod chip) and I play lots of console emulation games on it.

If I push the info button on the samsung remote, it tells the current resolution. it is usually 720 x 480 @ 60 hz for Halo 2 and XBMC. It does not say if it is progressive scan or interlaced. Is that apparent from this resolution?

The mod chip as the option of using VGA out with an adapter I believe. My tv has a VGA input. Would using this method eliminate the lag problem? Thanks for any help
post #69 of 718
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigceezy View Post

Ok, I have read quite a bit about this lag issue. I have a recently purchased Samsung HLR4667W. I am very happy with the TV with the exception of the lag! I have a modified xbox (X3 mod chip) and I play lots of console emulation games on it.

If I push the info button on the samsung remote, it tells the current resolution. it is usually 720 x 480 @ 60 hz for Halo 2 and XBMC. It does not say if it is progressive scan or interlaced. Is that apparent from this resolution?

The mod chip as the option of using VGA out with an adapter I believe. My tv has a VGA input. Would using this method eliminate the lag problem? Thanks for any help

720 x 480 @ 60 hz tells you nothing about whether the 480 is progressive or interlaced, which is what's important.

First, go to your dashboard and go to settings. If 480p is set to "on" in your HD Video settings, and Halo 2 still lags, then VGA is not going to change anything--you will simply be getting 480p via VGA instead of via Component Video. The infamously slow Samsung DLP will still be happy to bog down your video game to unplayable levels =)

As for your emulators, I believe that a few of the emulators on X-Box allow you to play them in 720p resolution! You may be able to solve lag on a few specific emulators this way by enabling that setting from within the emulator.

However, it is pretty much agreed upon that Samsung DLPs lag with 480p material as well as 480i, so if you're really interested in playing a lot of games then you should invest in a different HDTV.
post #70 of 718
Quote:


However, it is pretty much agreed upon that Samsung DLPs lag with 480p material as well as 480i, so if you're really interested in playing a lot of games then you should invest in a different HDTV.

Which ones besides Halo 2? I think this is a Halo 2 issue. Of course, Halo 2 is a popular game so that could also be why reports of this game lagging are frequent. I'll try Mario Golf for the GameCube. That should settle my opinion on 480p.

As for your Samsung HDTV, yes, it is telling you whether or not it's progressive; it's just not readily apparent.

720x480 @ 60Hz is progressive because the info button will display 720x480i @ 60Hz if it's interlaced. At least the HLPs do.

Cush
post #71 of 718
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cush1978 View Post

Which ones besides Halo 2? I think this is a Halo 2 issue. Of course, Halo 2 is a popular game so that could also be why reports of this game lagging are frequent.

Cush

Precisely. I played Halo 2 in 480p lag free on my Sony XBR910 so it is not an issue with the game. Halo 2 is simply a game that MANY people play that requires split second timing, and like a fighting game, it's ridiculously easy to notice when there is the slightest bit of lag. Although I can't verify it, I'm almost certain that this is a TV-related problem.
post #72 of 718
People that are experiencing lag may want to contact local repair shops or local custom installers. We've had problems with Tivo's and lag on some Plasma's, with the LG's for example, we use a service remote to change a delay/processing setting to help eliminate it.
post #73 of 718
My laptop has a vga output. i am going to try running a game on it and plugging it into the vga input on my tv and see if it fixes the problem. Sounds like it should (at least help some) according to the first post in this thread.
post #74 of 718
Just wanted to update in the event that my findings help someone else

After using the vga output from my laptop, I did not experience any lag whatsoever from using the vga out and playing games. So I figured I would use vga output from my xbox. However, the vga out option on my modchip is still in development and the results from others were not to positive. Lots of problems with sync-on-green.

So I decided against that route and just replaced all of my emulator programs with ones that display in 720x480p and that seemed to be the solution. Now I can play all of my xbox games lag free.
post #75 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cush1978 View Post

There are no real "VGA" boxes for the Dreamcast. All the VGA boxes do is tell the Dreamcast to output a 640x480 VGA signal because the console, not the box is capable of doing that. Any VGA box for the Dreamcast will not lag. In fact, that's what the VGA port on my HLP is currently used for.

Cush

This is the opposite of what I have heard. My understanding was the design of the Dreamcast had more of a natural VGA output anyway so the VGA box was truly VGA which is why there was never anything good released for the Xbox or PS2.

I don't know if this makes any sense but in a nutshell I understood that it was true VGA.
post #76 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubsr1 View Post

Add me to the list of frustrated people who own a samsung dlp. I played halo2 at my brother in law's house last night and couldn't believe the difference...it literally was a different game without the lag. Sniping was once again a joy. If lag is still prevalent at 720p my tv is gone, one way or another.

How do you know it's not lag from online play? Have you tried single player sniping And it was that much difference?
I really don't know how you can quantify this lag issue. I personally have never seen it on my samsung, it seems to respond quite normally actually.
I would think you would have to have a regular TV set up right next to it and do a quick switch to see.
post #77 of 718
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxThe Deanxx View Post

This is the opposite of what I have heard. My understanding was the design of the Dreamcast had more of a natural VGA output anyway so the VGA box was truly VGA which is why there was never anything good released for the Xbox or PS2.

I don't know if this makes any sense but in a nutshell I understood that it was true VGA.

You just rephrased exactly what Cush originally said.

VGA Boxes for Dreamcast were simply VGA cables that told the Dreamcast to output VGA, which it was capable of doing natively (much like the X-Box 360 is able to do).

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxThe Deanxx View Post

How do you know it's not lag from online play? Have you tried single player sniping And it was that much difference?
I really don't know how you can quantify this lag issue. I personally have never seen it on my samsung, it seems to respond quite normally actually.
I would think you would have to have a regular TV set up right next to it and do a quick switch to see.

Scrubsr1 didn't mention anything about whether or not he was playing online, but it would be silly to make a post like that if it were online as we all know all online gameplay experiences more lag than a TV will ever introduce. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt and assumed that he was referring to offline play. If he responds, maybe he can clear it up for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xxThe Deanxx View Post

I really don't know how you can quantify this lag issue. I personally have never seen it on my samsung, it seems to respond quite normally actually.
I would think you would have to have a regular TV set up right next to it and do a quick switch to see.

I've never messed with Samsung DLPs, but there are still a ton of people that claim the set lags at 480p. Although the lag might not be as bad as playing 480i material on the set, I can only assume that the people who post here are largely unmistaken. Obviously, how well you can see lag in a set depends on overall reaction time and many of us can see lag in a set without doing any switching to a regular TV.

There are also a lot of people that claim that they are playing their games lag-free when they play online, which obviously is untrue. HDTV lag is much harder to see than online lag, but it's still definitely there which is why we're all here and why this thread is here.
post #78 of 718
Sorry for the confusion but the lag is significantly present both on and off line. This tv was all I ever played halo 2 on until I played it at my brother in laws house. Since then I had some friends over for a system link party so I could do some back to back comparisons with a regular crt based tv. Going from my dlp to the other set confirmed the fact that this hdtv(hlp-5063) presents significant lag, even at 480p. I was also quite suprised to find that halo1 lags just as bad halo2.

I've yet to experiment with games that support 720p, hopefully this "lag" issue will be resolved at the native resolution of the set.
post #79 of 718
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scrubsr1 View Post

Sorry for the confusion but the lag is significantly present both on and off line. This tv was all I ever played halo 2 on until I played it at my brother in laws house. Since then I had some friends over for a system link party so I could do some back to back comparisons with a regular crt based tv. Going from my dlp to the other set confirmed the fact that this hdtv(hlp-5063) presents significant lag, even at 480p. I was also quite suprised to find that halo1 lags just as bad halo2.

I've yet to experiment with games that support 720p, hopefully this "lag" issue will be resolved at the native resolution of the set.

And there you have it. Obviously if you are only playing on a laggy set, you'll get used to the lag after a while but in the end you're still playing with lag. Hope you try a CRT out one day so you can see how much lag you've been playing with, Dean.
post #80 of 718
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLP-Lag View Post

One thing I will add is I am having my set professionally calibrated in two weeks, and one of the things he already mentioned he's doing is disabling the DNIE. When I get a better explanation on why this is I will pass it along.

Can we PLEASE get an update on this? Admins, could you email this guy? I need to know because my hl-r5067 lags on everything.
post #81 of 718
Hey, everyone! I purchased the 5087w a few weeks ago and its being delivered to my new apartment on the 22nd - VERY excited! The reason I'm writing is to inquire about gaming lag. I'm a huge gamer - I will probably use this set 90% for gaming. I own a PS2, Gamecube, Xbox and soon a XBOX360 (stupid pre-order). I'm even going to hook up my PC every once in a while in play some CS:S.

I've read horror stories about Samsung DLPs and gaming today. It's kind of scaring me actually. The xx67 models seem to be the ones suffering the most. There was a couple people in here that stated they had no gaming lag except for on a couple PS2 games? I would prefer no lag at all and might move my money over to a Toshiba 52HMX95 if Best Buy carries them.

To sum up, is there anybody here that actually plays games on a daily basis on their 5087w and can describe the gaming lag they may or may not be experiencing? It would really dispel my worries, because right now I'm really worried.

Oh, I'll be playing games in 480i (PS2, Gamecube, XBOX), 480p(Xbox and some PS2 games) and eventually 720p on Xbox360.

PLEASE HELP !
post #82 of 718
Wow, this thread still lives.

First, calibrating your DLP will not fix the issue. My service tech lives in my neighborhood and every time he hears something that may alleviate the delay, he stops by my place to try it. Unless something has changed with recent models, this is a no-go. But hey, professionally calibrating your set should be worth it for the visual quality. I'd like to have mine done some day.

As for the Dreamcast, yeah, in short, the Dreamcast console does the work of producing a VGA signal. The VGA boxes do no conversion; they tell the console to output VGA.

As for Halo 2, I've heard the bug with lagging shows at 480P and widescreen. Was this Sony TV widescreen as well? I don't own an XBox so I haven't done my own tests. I still maintain that from the vast library of XBox games, the same two always seem to be problematic.

I did test Mario Golf on my GameCube at 480i versus 480p. The swing meter is akin to Hot Shots Golf. I have no problems making good swings at 480p. I still maintain 480p is "good enough" to reduce lag to unnoticable amounts.

Rorktor, there are numerous posts about the lag issue. Lag will always be present at standard definition signals at 480i. The lag is so minute, you will not notice on most games. I can play fast-paced games like I-Ninja and Jak and Daxter without having a problem. However, on games that require precise timing (sports swing meters, rhythm games), the lag is immediate noticeable. This is for all Samsung DLP models to my knowledge although some claim the pedestal models have no such problem.

One more month of paying off my TV, then I can buy an XRGB-2+...

Cush
post #83 of 718
would a 1000x780 scale xbox 360 games with no lag?
post #84 of 718
I'm making a purchasing decision and am leaning towards a DLP set.

I called Samsung support (I'm looking at an HL-R5067) and they said that "game mode" fixes lag issues with any input. They also said that if I'm experiencing lag, that it would be a servicable problem. I haven't seen much in the thread here about game mode on the Samsung HLRxx67's. Comments?

My other consideration is a Toshiba 52HM95. Does anyone have lag issues with these Toshiba units? Do they have a game mode? Does it help?

Is there anything in the 50" range that's under $2,500 without much lag? How about the Sony LCD, KDF-E50A10?

I plan to use 480p when available, but I'm sure I'll end up using 480i at times. How bad is the lag with a dance pad playing DDR?
post #85 of 718
As far as I know, the HLRs don't fix the lag issue. A Samsung tech told me on the phone that "Game Mode" turns off Digital Noise Reduction and DNIe (which you could do in the standard menus for the HLP models). He said there was no difference. It is certainly not a serviceable problem. I've been on them since 9/2004 when I bought my TV.

No, you can't play DDR on a Samsung DLP; you will notice the lag.

Cush
post #86 of 718
Has anyone confirmed whether or not boxes like the XRGB-2+ fix the lag on the HLRxx67W's? I was set on getting a 5667W, but if the lag is really a problem (the wife and I are DDR fans), that's out the window. But if a VGA box fixes it...
post #87 of 718
The first post in this thread states the XRGB2+ is a solution and also cites a user who has done this with a Samsung DLP. Since the lag is the same from the HLM to the HLR, I would say it's a good bet. Can't promise you until I buy one myself. Do the HLRs have a VGA port? I can't remember; I have an HLP. If I recall, the HLRs have a VGA port and 2 HDMI ports; it's the DVI port they lack.

Cush
post #88 of 718
I just came back from my local best buy and I really had my heart set on purchasing the samsung HLR5067W until I hooked up my 360 on it. When I first hooked it up and changed the settings to HD, I thought I was in TV/Video game heaven. The blades on the menu worked perfectly and I noticed no lag.....until I started playing games and demos. First, I played Halo 2. Even though I downloaded and installed the patch for 720p support it still lagged when trying to aim at a moving target. Next, I played perfect dark against 15 bots. No matter what I did, its like when I would try to target one of the bots it just didn't respond fast enough to actually hit them. I even went into the visual options of PD and I changed it to DLP but all this did was improve the color and not the lag. Lastly, I played the NBA live 06 and Madden 06 demos and this was just unacceptable. Whether trying to make a juke move on the field or trying a quick ball fake on the court, the lag was hard not to notice. While this tv has superior picture quality and a really decent price tag. It just can't handle fast moving/time based games. So I'm going to go back tomorrow and demo some more DLP sets. I'll let you know what I find
post #89 of 718
Just to be absolutely sure, you hit the "Info" button on your DLP and it says 1280x720@60Hz or whatever it's supposed to display. You're describing the problems associated with 480i inputs. I don't have a 360, but I run my computer desktop (right now even) at 720p without any issues at all. I think keyboard and mouse input would be easily noticed.

Cush
post #90 of 718
If the tv displays 720p natively and they are showing HD channels in the store I would assume that is what the tv is set to. I used the component cables that came with my system and it had lag. I don't know what else to tell you. When I go back I'll let you know what the info button displays, but I don't expect it to show anything that will change the lag that I have experienced
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