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Which HD-DVD titles would you buy? - Page 3  

post #61 of 98
I say wait until Blu-Ray is out and THEN start considering what to purchase. It would be foolish to jump up and buy HD-DVD stuff before we know the difference.

As far as I know the HD-DVD players to start (at least Toshiba's) will not offer 1920x1080p output even if the disc is encoded at 1920x1080p. A major oversight.

The Playstation 3 with Blu-Ray has specs. calling for 1920x1080p output (possibly both HDMI outputs can do 1080p simultaneously-- it may be for two person play with dual displays, but at least it calls for 1080p).

Again, I will wait it out.
post #62 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering
Gonna be a LLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG wait.
Yep gonna be a long wait for those studios to release movies on BR. Heh the irony is that HD DVD players will be $500 by fall of 2006 so people really have no excuse.
post #63 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
PS Kris, do you think when just the PS3 will have hit 1M and at the same time HD-DVD has only hit 100-200k devices (if lucky) that the studios wont do the math and see $$ in their eyes and support BR? the only one that might keep up appearance will be TW because it is the only one with something to lose. By the end of 2006 I think all studios minus TW will have BR versions of the movies. As an example look at UMD, when the PSP came out only Sony made UMD movies, how long has it been out? all studios except TW now produce UMD version of movies.

Please stop parroting the same rediculous flawed arguments. Every person who buys a HD DVD player or PC drive will buy HD DVD movies. Every person who buys a PS3 there will be around 1% of people who will buy HD BR movies. Oh and I guess you didn't get the memo about $500 HD DVD players by fall of 2006. :cool:

Keep dreaming about Paramount and Universal movies on BR anytime soon.
post #64 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison
1 Million PS3 does not equal 1 Million HDTV sets with HDMI. UMB is a proprietary platform and isn't comparable to the HD-DVD/Blu-Ray battle at all.

I'd bet money that you don't see everyone but TW with BD movies. The PS3 is only going to ship mid 2006 and it'll probably be constrained for at least a qtr as all new consoles are. I don't think you have much clarity in this theory.

Exactly...why people keep bringing up PS3 as some sort of evidence studios will jump ship is highly suspect. It's a weak argument.
post #65 of 98
Quote:
Every person who buys a PS3 there will be around 1% of people who will buy HD BR movies
agree

but HD-DVD player in market=X, PS3 in market =100X, people buying HD-DVD movies=X people with PS3 (alone) buying BR movies= 100X*1%=X so people buying HD-DVD movies= people with PS3 buying BR movies. So assuming people with stand alone BR players=X as well that means people buying HD-DVD movies=X, people buying BR movies =2X
post #66 of 98
You should share that equation with the studios, it might be the magic formula. But maybe you didn't consider that by the time the PS3 hits the market the XBox 360 could be supporting HD-DVD, so maybe you should factor that in. Or maybe the idea that all the stores have already been carrying HD-DVD titles for quite sometime already, so that is the format people are already used to seeing. Or maybe all the releases on the market are hybrids (Warner has eluded to this already) and people have already been amassing HD-DVDs as they've been buying their normal DVDs.

There are way too many factors to just start some silly equation based around a game console that MAY or MAY NOT even fully support what we think it will. Sony has hyped game consoles before and not delivered what was touted. Or maybe it will all work the way you think it will and by Christmas 06 we'll all be happy with our single BR format and laughing at what a mistake Toshiba and NEC made with HD-DVD. These things usually are that simple.
post #67 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
agree

but HD-DVD player in market=X, PS3 in market =100X, people buying HD-DVD movies=X people with PS3 (alone) buying BR movies= 100X*1%=X so people buying HD-DVD movies= people with PS3 buying BR movies. So assuming people with stand alone BR players=X as well that means people buying HD-DVD movies=X, people buying BR movies =2X
Oh god my head is hurting. There will be far fewer people buying standalone BR players than HD DVD players. I'll let you figure that out.
post #68 of 98
"-Oh god my head is hurting.-"

Grade School math too tough for you eh?

He said twice the amount of Blu-Ray discs will be sold even if only 1% of PS3 owners buy movies.

BTW... the 'fact' that only 1% of PS3 owners will buy Blu-Ray movies seems daft to me and really yet at eachother's throats you and Anthony seem to agree on this number -which neither of you have any evidence to even suggest this will be the case.

My evidence that it'll be higher than 1%? Every game mag and online game forum has made repeated reports that the PS3 should play Blu-Ray movies.
If this was only of interest to ~1% of game players they wouldn't bother to talk about it.
They talk about it a LOT though.

And certainly there are lots of AVSer's looking to get the PS3 and certainly care about it playing Blu-Ray movies.

I won't waste my time to note anything about Beta/VHS or DVD-A/SACD or the PSP movie sales 'cuz they're all totally pointless to this case.

BTW... 'Julie' are you a girl or guy? Just curious 'cuz it looks like a girl's name for your handle but people have called you a guy on other threads (and other things heh) and you didn't correct them.
post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by azryan
"-Oh god my head is hurting.-"

Grade School math too tough for you eh?

He said twice the amount of Blu-Ray discs will be sold even if only 1% of PS3 owners buy movies.

BTW... the 'fact' that only 1% of PS3 owners will buy Blu-Ray movies seems daft to me and really yet at eachother's throats you and Anthony seem to agree on this number -which neither of you have any evidence to even suggest this will be the case.

My evidence that it'll be higher than 1%? Every game mag and online game forum has made repeated reports that the PS3 should play Blu-Ray movies.
If this was only of interest to ~1% of game players they wouldn't bother to talk about it.
They talk about it a LOT though.

And certainly there are lots of AVSer's looking to get the PS3 and certainly care about it playing Blu-Ray movies.

I won't waste my time to note anything about Beta/VHS or DVD-A/SACD or the PSP movie sales 'cuz they're all totally pointless to this case.

BTW... 'Julie' are you a girl or guy? Just curious 'cuz it looks like a girl's name for your handle but people have called you a guy on other threads (and other things heh) and you didn't correct them.
I'm afraid you just don't get it. The 1% is from factoring in the measely 15 million HDTVs then out of those who have a HDTV even fewer will buy HD BR movies.

As to the fallacious two times the number of BR units out there, I'll let you figure it out since you seem capabable of gradeschool math....*chuckles*.
post #70 of 98
azryan: I agree, it should be higher then 1%, but none of us know what it will be the 1% mentioned was enough to make the difference, my guess 10% maybe even higher


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fallacious two times the number of BR units
when did I say 2x the BR units, obviously the BR units will be more then 2x, do you think there will be less then 2x the number of PS3 sold then HD-DVD players?

I said that the conclusion will be that 2x the BR movies will be sold,

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The 1% is from factoring in the measely 15 million HDTVs
but that would only be applicable if you could not watch BR movies on a none HDMI connection on the PS3, now if BR allows video (even downgraded) and the PS3 has other connectors, then it is reasonable to assume that the PS3 will have that feature. Now you might love to think that people will use the best a player has to offer and so if they don't
have an HDMI set they will not try movies, but how many people use composite on their DVD player? how many will buy a 30$ DVD player? and some of those people that "will use what I have" will try BR and even though it is downgraded to DVD levels, the movies should look better because they started of from a disk that was not compressed to such extremes, that should mean better colour and less artefacts. and even if you assume =DVD, that does no mean that they won't at least try one or two movie does it?


On the other hand in logic a conclusion is fallacious if the argument is fallacious and so to say my BR movie sales would be 2x HD-DVD movies you would actually have to show something else in the argument was fallacious in other word that 1+1 does not give 2 since I basically used your own reasoning to show why it will play a role
post #71 of 98
I just love how people here are arguing numbers of their own estimates and it comes out sounding like fact.
The only fact here is nobody knows how many people buy the PS3 and for what reason. The way people here speak, maybe MS and Nintendo should jump ship from the console market right now because they have no chance in hell to sell their consoles.

We seriously have to look at what the prices will be of these things. I have talked to 4-5 gaming friends about the xbox 360 and PS3. They told me right now price plays a big factor in which they will buy, regardless of movie playing. If the PS3 is priced too high then they will opt for a moderately priced xbox360.
post #72 of 98
Quote:
I said that the conclusion will be that 2x the BR movies will be sold

On the other hand in logic a conclusion is fallacious if the argument is fallacious and so to say my BR movie sales would be 2x HD-DVD movies you would actually have to show something else in the argument was fallacious in other word that 1+1 does not give 2 since I basically used your own reasoning to show why it will play a role
I just quote myself from the other thread:

you mean everyone who buys a PS3 will also buy a standalone BR player too? And two copies of the same title one for the PS3 and one for the standalone BR player? That's the only way you're going to see that delusional 2X number...*chuckles*.

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Now you might love to think that people will use the best a player has to offer and so if they don't have an HDMI set they will not try movies, but how many people use composite on their DVD player? how many will buy a 30$ DVD player? and some of those people that "will use what I have" will try BR and even though it is downgraded to DVD levels, the movies should look better because they started of from a disk that was not compressed to such extremes, that should mean better colour and less artefacts. and even if you assume =DVD, that does no mean that they won't at least try one or two movie does it?
The point is people are not going to pay more for HD BR movies to watch on a non HDTV just to prepare for the future which could very well be HD DVD. If they want to watch new non HD movies they'll just buy DVDs. At least with hybrid DVD/HD DVD people can play the discs in any standard DVD player so if HD DVD loses, the movie is still usable not so with BR. If BR loses, it'll be like having a Betamax movie collection that don't work on the VHS vcrs on the market.
post #73 of 98
No

The point is people are not going to pay more for HD-DVD hybrid movies to watch on a DVD player just to prepare for the future which could very well be BR especially if it is more inconvenient since it will be split on two DVDs or much worst quality(each hybrid is SL DVD) not to mention it is not fully compatible with DVD and the DVD forum estimates at least 2% of players won't be able to play them. If they want to watch new non HD movies they'll just buy DVDs. At least with BR people can play the discs in their PS3 that they own and the reason they bought the movie so if BR loses, the movie is still usable not so with HD-DVD since they never bought a HD0-DVD player and it does not pay on their DVD player. If HD-DVD loses, it'll be like having a Betamax movie collection that don't work on the VHS vcrs on the market.
post #74 of 98
Quote:
The point is people are not going to pay more for HD-DVD hybrid movies to watch on a DVD player just to prepare for the future
Who says everyone would? Everyone who buys a HD DVD player or drive WILL buy HD DVD movies. That's a fact. The people who don't buy HD DVD players drives MAY buy hybrid DVD/HD DVDs just like PS3 users MAY buy BR movies.

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which could very well be BR especially if it is more inconvenient since it will be split on two DVDs or much worst quality(each hybrid is SL DVD) not to mention it is not fully compatible with DVD and the DVD forum estimates at least 2% of players won't be able to play them.
Who says it'll be split? Who says it'll be SL? 98% of a few hundred million is what?

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If they want to watch new non HD movies they'll just buy DVDs.
Isn't that what I already said? *chuckles*

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At least with BR people can play the discs in their PS3 that they own and the reason they bought the movie
Problem is every person who buys a HD DVD player or drive WILL buy HD DVD movies while every person who owns a PS3 will not...*chuckles*

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so if BR loses, the movie is still usable
yeah kinda like the Betamax movies people are still playing on their Betamax vcrs.

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not so with HD-DVD since they never bought a HD0-DVD player and it does not pay on their DVD player.
Your posts are starting to sound increasingly delusional. :cool:

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If HD-DVD loses, it'll be like having a Betamax movie collection that don't work on the VHS vcrs on the market.
HD DVDs are backwards compatible with HVD so it has a long life ahead...*chuckles*

Apparently you didn't have an answer to why a person would buy a PS3 and a standalone BR player and two copies of the same BR movie title to support your delusional 2X the number of movie titles...*chuckles*

Finally I'll just post what others have been observing.

Eh? It seems like you're really shopping for a spec in a rather abstract way. It's kind of like shopping for a car on the basis of peak RPM, or wanting a rotary engine. It's somewhat relevant underneath everything, but it only matters in how it really effects the end-user experience.

For a nascent, ambitious format so tenuous--still evolving as we speak--I find it odd that the BD faithful continue to stand so firm in their convictions...honestly, it borders on religion or cult status...believe the hype, without question, fixtate on the sizzle, assume the steak will materialize.

That pretty much sums it up. :cool:
post #75 of 98
better shopping specs then saying nothing matter except .10$ in replication costs. and we should be happy having something slightly better then DVD and paying 10$ more for it.

Simple there is no incentive for anyone that does not have a HD-DVD player to buy hybrids because they will pay 10$ more for something they may never use if HD-DVD loses. On the other hand it makes perfect sense for someone who has a BR player (built into a PS3) to buy BR movies because they will have better extras, better sound and better quality video over DVD even if it is downgraded to 480p. For one all the bad motion artefacts and other compression artefacts that are on DVD wont be on BR.

Also according to the DVD forum the only hybrid is single DVD single HD-DVD. Single DVD sucks for movies, so why would someone that just has a DVD player pay 10$ more for a disk that is worst 9and the only way it would be equal would be to add a DVD with the second half of the movie, but then you would need two disks even with short movies, not to mention that according to the DVD forum the hybrid disk won't be compatible with all DVD players, so after a few returns because "this POS does not work" stores will be reluctant to stock them, not to mention people will lose faith in HD-DVD


as to the dumb question

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Apparently you didn't have an answer to why a person would buy a PS3 and a standalone BR player and two copies of the same BR movie title to support your delusional 2X the number of movie titles...*chuckles
no need to try and explain that, since asking that question means you did not grasp the basic concept of what was said. some times a poster needs to understand that the intended reader does not have the capacity of comprehension of a subject and any such discussion is useless.
post #76 of 98
Quote:
Simple there is no incentive for anyone that does not have a HD-DVD player to buy hybrids because they will pay 10$ more for something they may never use if HD-DVD loses. On the other hand it makes perfect sense for someone who has a BR player (built into a PS3) to buy BR movies because they will have better extras, better sound and better quality video over DVD even if it is downgraded to 480p. For one all the bad motion artefacts and other compression artefacts that are on DVD wont be on BR.
Retarded logic to support a weak argument. If people would buy BR movies to watch on their PS3 even if they know BR might lose then people will buy DVD/HD DVD hybrids to watch on the hundreds of millions of DVD players already out there even if they know HD DVD might lose.

BTW the hybrids DVD/HD DVD could be SL or DL. That has not been settle yet, but it's pretty obvious you're desparate to pin it down to SL.

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no need to try and explain that, since asking that question means you did not grasp the basic concept of what was said. some times a poster needs to understand that the intended reader does not have the capacity of comprehension of a subject and any such discussion is useless.
Question is only dumb when the person being asked doesn't have an answer.
post #77 of 98
Quote:
BTW the hybrids DVD/HD DVD could be SL or DL. That has not been settle yet, but it's pretty obvious you're desparate to pin it down to SL.
1) When the 2x2 (DL) is added to the specs I will discus it as a possibility at this time it is not and the SL is the only one there. So if people are making mythcal disks that is a different story.


2) it is easy for Sony to pass the message that a BR disk will play on the PS3 all they need is a small piece of paper with big font saying "PS3 plays Blu-Ray movie disks" on the other hand how will Toshiba pass that message to all DVD owners. Sony can even go further by including a movie, or on a Demo disk have some clips and games on a BR disk.

3) like everything DVD and HD-DVD the hybrids will not be 100% compatible and might not play on a DVD player, so I don't know why anyone would pay 10$ for something that won't play on their DVD player or their none existing HD-DVD player. It will also screw with people mines, "buy HD-DVD they play on your DVD player, but the title I want is HD-DVD only because they did not use a hybrid.
post #78 of 98
Quote:
1) When the 2x2 (DL) is added to the specs I will discus it as a possibility at this time it is not and the SL is the only one there. So if people are making mythcal disks that is a different story.
Specs aren't finalized so it's premature to discuss specs period. Everything is based on conjecture unless you're from the future...*chuckles*.

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2) it is easy for Sony to pass the message that a BR disk will play on the PS3 all they need is a small piece of paper with big font saying "PS3 plays Blu-Ray movie disks" on the other hand how will Toshiba pass that message to all DVD owners. Sony can even go further by including a movie, or on a Demo disk have some clips and games on a BR disk
.

I don't think the issue is people not realizing PS3 can play BR movies. The question is will they care.

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3) like everything DVD and HD-DVD the hybrids will not be 100% compatible and might not play on a DVD player
It'll be 98% compatible which equals hundreds of millions of DVD players capable of playing them.

Your arguments are circular and has not made any progress because you have ignored everything that has been said to parrot the same nonsense based on a weak argument. Repeating the same rhetoric will not make it more valid.
post #79 of 98
Quote:
Specs aren't finalized so it's premature to discuss specs period. Everything is based on conjecture unless you're from the future...*chuckles*.

well if it is premature you are more then welcome to stop discussing this until it is not. No, if something is in spec it is ion spec and will be in spec, if something is not it might never be. I could be here making all my calculations on the 8L BR, but then that would be dishonest because it is not in the spec. On the other hand if TW has decided to use a hybrid and has started making versions of their movies that fit on the hybrid, and the only hybrid is a 1x1 they can't very well be using a format that might never exist, can they?

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I don't think the issue is people not realizing PS3 can play BR movies. The question is will they care
well UMD and PSP shows they will

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It'll be 98% compatible which equals hundreds of millions of DVD players capable of playing them.
wow and 98% is good? considering I own 8 DVD players, my eldest sister has 6 , my other sister has 3 and the last one has 5, they might have more but those are the ones easily countable that I know they have that means 4 people count for 22 DVD players, now I don't think everyone has as many, but it could mean that more then 5% of customers will have problems (a bit more then 2 per customer) I don't think stores and rental places would be happy when 5%+ of their customers come back bitching it did not work on their DVD player after the clerk said it will.
post #80 of 98
Quote:
well if it is premature you are more then welcome to stop discussing this until it is not. No, if something is in spec it is ion spec and will be in spec, if something is not it might never be. I could be here making all my calculations on the 8L BR, but then that would be dishonest because it is not in the spec. On the other hand if TW has decided to use a hybrid and has started making versions of their movies that fit on the hybrid, and the only hybrid is a 1x1 they can't very well be using a format that might never exist, can they?
Since everything is conjecture at this point and you want to play this game then I say DL hybrids will be available in 2006 when the DL hybrid specs will be finalized.

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well UMD and PSP shows they will
Yeah people showed they cared about MD and Betamax too, until they stopped caring.

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wow and 98% is good? considering I own 8 DVD players, my eldest sister has 6 , my other sister has 3 and the last one has 5, they might have more but those are the ones easily countable that I know they have that means 4 people count for 22 DVD players, now I don't think everyone has as many, but it could mean that more then 5% of customers will have problems (a bit more then 2 per customer) I don't think stores and rental places would be happy when 5%+ of their customers come back bitching it did not work on their DVD player after the clerk said it will.
I'll make it simple. Out of every 100 DVD players 2 DVD players will not be able to read the hybrids. The average person owns 2 or less DVD players. That means out of the 100 DVD players there are 50 customers/owners. Out of those 50 people only two DVD players total will be incompatible with the hybrids. That's miniscule.
post #81 of 98
Quote:
Since everything is conjecture at this point and you want to play this game then I say DL hybrids will be available in 2006 when the DL hybrid specs will be finalized.
so let me see if I got this right. In the fall of 2005 I (or anyone else) will be able to buy an HD-DVD player for 1000$ and 90 movie titles available on hybrid disks, and even though the 2x2 might only be added to the specs in some time in 2006, that player and disks from 2005 will be using it? Or will I need to buy a new 1000$ player and will the studios make new 2x2 versions of their movies once it is added?

man that is some strong drugs you’re using. And then you say others are imagining stuff


also everyone knows if something is not in the specs on day one it is useless

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I'll make it simple. Out of every 100 DVD players 2 DVD players will not be able to read the hybrids. The average person owns 2 or less DVD players. That means out of the 100 DVD players there are 50 customers/owners. Out of those 50 people only two DVD players total will be incompatible with the hybrids. That's miniscule.
let's say, you are right and the average (for people that have any DVD player) is 2, I think it should be higher but who cares, that still means 2 out of every 50 people have problems or 4% of people. As to the average of 2 I think it is low, don't forget a gaming machine, a PC that is not as old as time, plus a stand alone player would mean 3, what about people with a second home, portable players....... I think there are still people that don't own DVD players, but they should not be counted to average out the number of players
post #82 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julie
For a nascent, ambitious format so tenuous--still evolving as we speak--I find it odd that the BD faithful continue to stand so firm in their convictions...honestly, it borders on religion or cult status...believe the hype, without question, fixtate on the sizzle, assume the steak will materialize.

That pretty much sums it up. :cool:
Stands up and claps, very well put and handled :)
post #83 of 98
nvrmnd: can you tell me how those statements don't apply just as much if not more to HD-DVD?

Now I know physical formats are not important, but HD-DVD does not even know if the hybrid will be 1x1 or 2x2 not to mention DL or TL for HD-DVD alone. Now I know according to Julie none of that matters, because two years after people buy them they can magically all be changed.

Also show me how many how many HD-DVD players are out there in consumers hands to prove that HD-DVD works, while how many recorders are out there in Japan that prove BR is workable.

The only advantage in a historic manner that HD-DVD has over BR is that disk manufacturing is based on ancient 10 year old techs and patents that ends up limiting what it can do

PS don't forget that the hybrid will also not play in many DVD players out there
post #84 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyP
nvrmnd: can you tell me how those statements don't apply just as much if not more to HD-DVD?

Now I know physical formats are not important, but HD-DVD does not even know if the hybrid will be 1x1 or 2x2 not to mention DL or TL for HD-DVD alone. Now I know according to Julie none of that matters, because two years after people buy them they can magically all be changed.

Also show me how many how many HD-DVD players are out there in consumers hands to prove that HD-DVD works, while how many recorders are out there in Japan that prove BR is workable.

The only advantage in a historic manner that HD-DVD has over BR is that disk manufacturing is based on ancient 10 year old techs and patents that ends up limiting what it can do

PS don't forget that the hybrid will also not play in many DVD players out there
This whole post is a joke. You will be able to buy and watch around 90 HD DVD movies by the end of the year. Is that real enough for you? You act like every single spec detail needs to be finalize NOW in order for something to be real?

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so let me see if I got this right. In the fall of 2005 I (or anyone else) will be able to buy an HD-DVD player for 1000$ and 90 movie titles available on hybrid disks, and even though the 2x2 might only be added to the specs in some time in 2006, that player and disks from 2005 will be using it? Or will I need to buy a new 1000$ player and will the studios make new 2x2 versions of their movies once it is added?
Nobody said ALL of those 90 HD DVD titles will be hybrids so stop with the strawman argument. You think Toshiba is stupid enough to finalize a DL hybrid next year and not have them be readable by players coming out this year one of which is their own? You gotta be kiddin me.

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also everyone knows if something is not in the specs on day one it is useless
Uh no, that imaginary law is just that imaginary.
post #85 of 98
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This whole post is a joke. You will be able to buy and watch around 90 HD DVD movies by the end of the year. Is that real enough for you? You act like every single spec detail needs to be finalize NOW in order for something to be real?
that is the difference between real and imaginary. If something is not in the specs when the device is created there is no guarantee that the device will be able to handle it, even if the manufacturer knows it is coming and tries to add something to the device to make it work with the future spec, there is no guarantee that what he built is 100% compatible.

DL DVD was in the specs from day one and even then when DL DVDs started coming out many players were worthless because they could not play them


so it is 100% faith (and that is were cults come in when you take everything on faith) that it will be added later, tenuous also applies to that like any time faith comes into play

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Nobody said ALL of those 90 HD DVD titles will be hybrids so stop with the strawman argument. You think Toshiba is stupid enough to finalize a DL hybrid next year and not have them be readable by players coming out this year one of which is their own? You gotta be kiddin me.
agree, no one said all those 90 titles will be hybrids, but it is an important premise that many of them, if not all, would need to be if you spent the last three pages trying to convince us that people with DVD players will be buying these HD-DVD disks to play the DVD part

As to Toshiba being stupid, no, but then again can Toshibas intelligence make a 1x1 magically become a 2x2? or will all the 90 titles be released on a DL HD-DVD and then some time late next year when the 2x2 comes out it will be re-released on a 2x2?

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Uh no, that imaginary law is just that imaginary.
funny how you used to agree with that "imaginary" law when the discussion was about a 4L and 8L BR disk but somehow for HD-DVD it does not apply

that is the difference between you and me, I am consistent

- I think adding stuff later to specs is hard, you think hard for BR easy for HD-DVD
- I think extra capacity is good because it gives more choices to studios to use as they wish (better audio, more audio, better video, more extras, better extras what ever they wish to do with it) , You think capacity is only needed when and where Toshiba and HD-DVD tells you, 15GB is good enough except if they decide to go with 30GB and then that is good enough until HVD comes out with 100 GB in 5 years time and then 100GB is what will be needed, but 50GB is just so wrong

I think higher capacity and higher bitrate is good, and that is why I chose BR, I chose my preference based on the capabilities of each format, I also chose it because of its higher recording capabilities because I want a PVR with standard removable media

what were some of your major reasons for HD-DVD:

- BR is not supported by the DVD forum, isn't that what cults are all about, the great and mighty DVD forum, our god, says BR group did not make the right offerings at the alter so the heathens must be destroyed
- Studios will not make as much extra profit: as if I care either way how much they make. considering all of them are profitable


I am still waiting for someone to give me a good reason to switch side, but so far all I have heard is that mediocrity is good enough and that is what HD-DVD has to offer.
post #86 of 98
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that is the difference between real and imaginary. If something is not in the specs when the device is created there is no guarantee that the device will be able to handle it, even if the manufacturer knows it is coming and tries to add something to the device to make it work with the future spec, there is no guarantee that what he built is 100% compatible.
Being in the spec from the beginning doesn't guarantee that it'll be used either. If DL hybrids were in the specs from day 1 it doesn't mean movies will be released on it now or ever.

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DL DVD was in the specs from day one and even then when DL DVDs started coming out many players were worthless because they could not play them.
And in the same post you just proved that specs don't guarantee compatibility either.

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so it is 100% faith (and that is were cults come in when you take everything on faith) that it will be added later, tenuous also applies to that like any time faith comes into play
DL hybrids being added next year is not faith, it's a prediction based on what is known and facts on feasibility.

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agree, no one said all those 90 titles will be hybrids, but it is an important premise that many of them, if not all, would need to be if you spent the last three pages trying to convince us that people with DVD players will be buying these HD-DVD disks to play the DVD part
Uh you might want to go back reread what is being said. Hybrid HD DVDs MAY be purchased by people who own regular DVD players and there are hundreds of millions out there. Just like BRDs MAY be purchased by PS3 owners. Difference here is there is ZERO PS3 owners for the next 6 months and even after 12 months PS3 units will pale in comparison to the hundreds of millions of DVD players already out there that can play hybrid HD DVDs.

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As to Toshiba being stupid, no, but then again can Toshibas intelligence make a 1x1 magically become a 2x2? or will all the 90 titles be released on a DL HD-DVD and then some time late next year when the 2x2 comes out it will be re-released on a 2x2?
It's pretty obvious your expertise isn't engineering, because making DL hybrids compatible with HD DVD players is a trivial matter.

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funny how you used to agree with that "imaginary" law when the discussion was about a 4L and 8L BR disk but somehow for HD-DVD it does not apply
It's funny because I used the same argument the BR supporters used to shoot down their own 4L and 8L fantasies. I wasn't the first to use the spec argument, the BR people were...*chuckles*. It was an example of a taste of your own medicine. 4L and 8L are science projects with no feasibility or cost data so the spec argument isn't even needed to show it's pure fantasy.

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I think adding stuff later to specs is hard, you think hard for BR easy for HD-DVD
Everything that has been mentioned for HD DVD like hybrids and TL HD DVDs are based on old proven disc manufacturing technolgy. Everything that is bandied by the BR supporters like JVC's hybrid discs and 4L and 8L discs is based on science projects and experimental manufacturing technology.

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I think extra capacity is good because it gives more choices to studios to use as they wish (better audio, more audio, better video, more extras, better extras what ever they wish to do with it) , You think capacity is only needed when and where Toshiba and HD-DVD tells you, 15GB is good enough except if they decide to go with 30GB and then that is good enough until HVD comes out with 100 GB in 5 years time and then 100GB is what will be needed, but 50GB is just so wrong
I don't see a reason to want a car that's capable of 200MPH when the freeways have a speed limit of 75MPH.

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I think higher capacity and higher bitrate is good, and that is why I chose BR, I chose my preference based on the capabilities of each format, I also chose it because of its higher recording capabilities because I want a PVR with standard removable media
You chose BR because it has bigger numbers with the belief that those numbers will someday be used by movie studios. To me something is only good if it affects the end result in a good way. BR's higher capacity over HD DVD doesn't affect the end result for what I want in HD movies so it's superfluous as opposed to better.

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BR is not supported by the DVD forum, isn't that what cults are all about, the great and mighty DVD forum, our god, says BR group did not make the right offerings at the alter so the heathens must be destroyed
Uh no, BDA started this format war so I'm boycotting BR very simple. It has little to do with the DVD Forum. The DF is just a tool that was available to the BDA to use to avoid a war. It's what they caused that matters.

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I am still waiting for someone to give me a good reason to switch side, but so far all I have heard is that mediocrity is good enough and that is what HD-DVD has to offer.
Again you're basing quality on numbers...not very smart. I don't think anyone can convince a person like you to go with HD DVD.
post #87 of 98
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Uh no, BDA started this format war so I'm boycotting BR very simple. It has little to do with the DVD Forum. The DF is just a tool that was available to the BDA to use to avoid a war. It's what they caused that matters.
why did they need to go to the DVD forum, the mandate of the DVD forum is to set the pace for DVD and manage the royalties structure, it was not given devine right over all future video formats

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And in the same post you just proved that specs don't guarantee compatibility either.
agree, if a spec is not well written because it is not finalized enough there can be technical problems but then again that is what the DVD forum keeps on doing isn't it :)

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Uh you might want to go back reread what is being said. Hybrid HD DVDs MAY be purchased by people who own regular DVD players and there are hundreds of millions out there. Just like BRDs MAY be purchased by PS3 owners. Difference here is there is ZERO PS3 owners for the next 6 months and even after 12 months PS3 units will pale in comparison to the hundreds of millions of DVD players already out there that can play hybrid HD DVDs.
hybrids can only be purchased if they are produced and only for movies that will be produced on them and used only by people whose DVD players are capable to read them.

Now you either believe that there will be many out there and then we can discus them and their effect on consumers compared to BR and PS3 where all BR movies will play on it. OR you think only at most a handful of hybrids will be produced and then it is irrelevant to the conversation. You cannot argue people will buy hybrids that don't exist.


how many of the 90 do you think will be hybrids

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I don't see a reason to want a car that's capable of 200MPH when the freeways have a speed limit of 75MPH.
agree, but the analogy is flawed, there is no speed limit. No one has argued that an average of 10mbps is the best and if you use 20mbps you won’t get anything better. Or to stay in the same vain with your car and speed limit, no car manufacturer makes a car that can go at the speed limit as a highest speed because they know that no one will buy it because everyone goes higher all the time. I don’t know the last time I ever saw anyone drive 100km/h even though that is the upper speed limit here, and never saw a manufacturer make a car that cannot pass it.
post #88 of 98
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why did they need to go to the DVD forum, the mandate of the DVD forum is to set the pace for DVD and manage the royalties structure, it was not given devine right over all future video formats
Simple because it would've prevented a format war not exactly rocket science.

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agree, if a spec is not well written because it is not finalized enough there can be technical problems but then again that is what the DVD forum keeps on doing isn't it
And you think the BDA will magically be immune to spec revisions/additions? Talk about faith and cults.

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hybrids can only be purchased if they are produced and only for movies that will be produced on them and used only by people whose DVD players are capable to read them.
Yeah that's why the word MAY was used.

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Now you either believe that there will be many out there and then we can discus them and their effect on consumers compared to BR and PS3 where all BR movies will play on it. OR you think only at most a handful of hybrids will be produced and then it is irrelevant to the conversation. You cannot argue people will buy hybrids that don't exist.
It's not as simple and black and white as you like to make it. Hybrids will be available and there are hundreds of million of DVD players out there that can play them. That's all you need to know. PS3 owners may buy BR movies just like DVD player owners may buy hybrids. There's nothing more you need to hang on to.

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agree, but the analogy is flawed, there is no speed limit. No one has argued that an average of 10mbps is the best and if you use 20mbps you won’t get anything better. Or to stay in the same vain with your car and speed limit, no car manufacturer makes a car that can go at the speed limit as a highest speed because they know that no one will buy it because everyone goes higher all the time. I don’t know the last time I ever saw anyone drive 100km/h even though that is the upper speed limit here, and never saw a manufacturer make a car that cannot pass it.
Most cars are made to have a top speed of over 100MPH because big numbers sell, you of all people should know this. Oh and there is a speed limit to HD DVD and BR, it's called a point of diminishing returns, but some people think they'll be able to see a difference with bigger numbers.
post #89 of 98
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Simple because it would've prevented a format war not exactly rocket science.
if the DVD forum would have said "our mandate is DVD and anything with a blue laser is not DVD and so the BRG has the mandate for the next generation disk" that would have done it as well. It takes two to have a war.

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And you think the BDA will magically be immune to spec revisions/additions?
no, but they seem to have their act together much more the the DVD-forum. Everything important is in there and no one has said that there will be any devices before the spec is finalized

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you of all people should know this. Oh and there is a speed limit to HD DVD and BR, it's called a point of diminishing returns, but some people think they'll be able to see a difference with bigger numbers.
diminishing returns means exactly that a function that has diminishing returns is a function that the slope decreases as X increases. The point of diminishing returns is an imaginary threshold where because of the slope of the function you need a delta in X that is too big and not worth the cost or effort (or whatever you are considering) to make a significant difference in Y. It never means there will not be a difference in Y. For instance (since you have said you are an engineer) If you are designing something where precision is not as essential and you need to use pi you could use 3 and skip on some calculations, that will be your point of diminishing returns the effort needed to calculate more decimal places is not worth it, it does not mean that using 3.1416 would not give you better (more precise) results. And it does not mean that 3.14159265358979 won't be better. But since pi is irrational you will never b able to use the full value for computations and so at some point you need to call it quits.

The thing is at this point we have two formats one of witch can offer something better. that makes HD-DVDs point useless. The same as pi. if I calculated by hand and using three was good enough I would use 3, but if I use a simple calculator and needed to push in the buttons I could decide to use 3.1416 and if the calculator has a pi button I would just use the value it has even if I don't need that much precision because there is no extra effort
post #90 of 98
I thought I was bad, but Julie and AnthonyP take the cake here. I know these forums are for a sharing of ideas. However, everybody is repeating the same ideas over and over again.

For this format war there are 2 sides here in the forum: One thinks that the added capacity will be needed for better quality. The other side thinks the capacity it has to offer is enough without overkill.

Anything after these 2 major points is all conjecture as to who will buy what and why.
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