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Paradigm Owners Thread - Page 944

post #28291 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardfh View Post

I have been running Studio 100 V2, and the Studio CC for years. It was fine for home theater. Recently I upgraded to the CC 690 which (to me) has been a huge improvement. Its an amazing Centre for Home Theater imo. Last night (after a couple of beers), I switched my Studio 20 rears for the 100's. Note I run dual SVS SB13 Ultra.

You know what, the 20's for Home Theater sound almost identical to my ears as the 100 with the 2 subs. I played around with several movies this morning, and did some a/b comparisons. Pretty close with the subs being played. Bookshelfs also work better in my room, so it has me thinking... Just thought I would share.

Thanks for the reminder, totally forgot to mention that in my list on my last post. I dont know whether it was the room, settings, or install but in my research some tower owners claimed that towers were boomy and downgrading to a book shelf design cured that. I had read that the 20 does need some distance from the back wall for best performance (kinda like a tower) but I think thats even more the case for a tower with a rear facing port. Rear ported speakers can be more tricky to bend to your will, especially in smaller rooms where you may not have the flexibility for perfect placement. If there has ever been a constant in my theater (my livingroom), its that I have not had the room to properly set up speakers, especially surrounds. Hence also my first time ever in going with a bipole, up untill now Ive always ran monopole surrounds too close to the seating area and the adp 590 will be my first ever bipole, should be an interesting new experience. This will also be my first ever experience with an identical front stage (five 20s).
Edited by Type A - 6/30/13 at 8:01pm
post #28292 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by richardfh View Post

I have been running Studio 100 V2, and the Studio CC for years. It was fine for home theater. Recently I upgraded to the CC 690 which (to me) has been a huge improvement. Its an amazing Centre for Home Theater imo. Last night (after a couple of beers), I switched my Studio 20 rears for the 100's. Note I run dual SVS SB13 Ultra.

You know what, the 20's for Home Theater sound almost identical to my ears as the 100 with the 2 subs. I played around with several movies this morning, and did some a/b comparisons. Pretty close with the subs being played. Bookshelfs also work better in my room, so it has me thinking... Just thought I would share.

Hey, pretty similar setup here. I'm thinking the size of the room has a lot to do with what you're experiencing.

For my previous home, replacing the Studio 20's with the 100's wasn't night and day but with my newer digs, the 100's really shine.

BTW, what are you powering them with and did you run the room correction software on your receiver when you switched back and forth?
post #28293 of 30066
So J29 + Studio 20 is basically a Studio 100 in height. Would the tweeter not be above ear height when seated or does that not matter all that much? Also the ADP590 surrounds, what are your views on it for surround sound? The idea of Studio 10's on the back wall gives me the shivers. The ADP's have a much nicer appearance and not as deep.
post #28294 of 30066
I've had experience with two set-ups where bi-/di-polar speakers were used as surrounds in a 5.1-channel set-up where the seats were up against (or very close to) the back wall and, in both cases, they worked fine. IMO, ADP-590s on the back wall should work just as well under similar circumstances.

If your seating area is several feet forward of the rear wall, I'd strongly consider S20s or S10s (wall-mounted or on stands) for rear-surround duty.
post #28295 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I've had experience with two set-ups where bi-/di-polar speakers were used as surrounds in a 5.1-channel set-up where the seats were up against (or very close to) the back wall and, in both cases, they worked fine. IMO, ADP-590s on the back wall should work just as well under similar circumstances.

If your seating area is several feet forward of the rear wall, I'd strongly consider S20s or S10s (wall-mounted or on stands) for rear-surround duty.

From what I understand, di-poles should not be behind you, they are supposed to be on the sides.
post #28296 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck 
If your seating area is several feet forward of the rear wall, I'd strongly consider S20s or S10s (wall-mounted or on stands) for rear-surround duty.

Unfortunately I don't have much room to work with. My couch is going to be very close to the back wall where I'm going to put GIK Monster traps (x3) behind the couch. So you think in my situation the ADP590's would work well? Never had dipoles before but then I haven't had any surround sound of any kind for at least 5 years. The last time I enjoyed surround sound I had a Jamo Concert C80 package which was ages ago.
post #28297 of 30066
Yes, AFAIK the ideal placement is directly to the sides, so that the can create a diffuse sound field. But if your seating area is up against a wall and it's hard to mount and aim bookshelf speakers at the listening position, I've experience two situations where bi-/di-poles (in the cases I'm familiar with, Paradigm ADP-390s) - mounted ~60" up on the back wall, and spaced at roughly 1/4 and 3/4 across the back width - provided a diffuse sound field for surround audio that worked quite well.

As always, YMMV. smile.gif

-- Edit --
Personally:
- for 5.1, I would go with direct-firing speakers for surround duty, if/when possible; and
- for 7.1, I'd go with bi-/di-poles for side-surround duty and direct-firing for rear-surround duty, if/when possible.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 7/1/13 at 11:08am
post #28298 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by globalgreg 
From what I understand, di-poles should not be behind you, they are supposed to be on the sides.

Serious? So you can't use them on the back wall instead of the side walls?
post #28299 of 30066

For a 5.1 surround systems the speakers are supposed be on the side walls and not the back wall.  7.1 should have sides and back speakers.  If you are going to use the back wall for surround speakers that is fine.  It is not as enveloping but many people do it because sides are not practical in their location and better than nor surrounds at all.

 

Wwhen using Di-poles the listeners should be in the null of the speaker.  They are typically used as side surrounds when the listeners are close to the speakers but can be used as back speakers with the same limitation.  the back of your head should be in line with the front of the speaker to get decent envelopment.  Di-poles are an advantage when the seating is very close to the listener <~5ft.  When you use direct firing speakers you tend to get that speaker in the ear effect and it is difficult to get good envelopment because the sound from the one speaker is overpowering the sound of the other for the listener that is close to it.

 

 Bi-poles are a good compromise solution and you do not have to be in the null to get the desired effect.  They are basically the same as two direct firing speakers and gives better coverage for the listening area.  If you are sitting right next to the speaker you may get that speaker in the ear effect and not get the envelopment of both surrounds or backs in this case.

 

 speakers are about application and no one is best for all situations.  In the ideal set up we would have identical speakers all around but that is not always practical in most homes to get the distances needed to make that work for all listeners.

post #28300 of 30066
Hi Bob,

Here is a picture of the lounge. I don't have any equipment yet, but you can get an idea :



As you can see, I think the back wall is my only option. Do you think the dipoles would work better in this case than using bookshelves? What do you suggest? I'm looking at the Studio 20 v5's with cc690 center, ADP590 surrounds. I'm ditching the cabinet you see for a custom made low profile design. It will be closed, so the equipment won't be in view. Will be using a dedicated control system. Cc690 will be positioned on top of cabinet, decoupled.
post #28301 of 30066

2-3 feet above the listeners head is ideal but rooms aren't always ideal.  Towards the back of the mantle would probably be better than the back wall but the back wall will be fine and probably a better aesthetic solution.  Are you open to somewhat tall stands towards the back corners on 45 degree angle towards the center of the listening area (i.e. aiming at the ottoman)?  They can be in 2-3 feet from the corner and don't have to be right in the corner. You can put them on that current stand, it might not at the ideal height but I would try it there as I think it might be a better solution than the back or side wall.

 

Here is a good test I like to use to demo surrounds.  Remember, surrounds should be providing envelopment and not very discrete sounds from an exact direction.  They might cue the audience to let them know something is to the side or behind them but they shouldn't call attention to a given area.  When they mix films the purpose is have the audience watch the screen and not things around them.

 

 Anyway here is a good demo I use, it requires 2 people to do well.  Play the first scene of Master and the Commander before the canons, that's for the sub demo:-)  While the scene is playing close your eyes, you should be enveloped in sound but you might not be noticing it.  Other than some voices and bells you should feel like you are there and not really hearing the surrounds too much.  While you are listening with your eyes closed you might be thinking I don't hear the surrounds too much.  The second person at approximately half to three quarters of the way through the scene hits the stereo button on your processor.

 

 You should notice the whole soundstage collapse towards the front of the room and you realize that while you weren't sure your surrounds were loud enough or set up correctly that they had actually put you in the movie without calling attention to themselves.  If you don't get this effect or the surrounds are very noticeable then you need to look at your placements, delays and levels.  Give it a try it is a great demo.

 

 I use it all the time when I hear people say, "I don't hear the surrounds".  If you just want to hear them put the processor in all channels stereo and call it a dayeek.gif

post #28302 of 30066

Heinrich,

 

  The back wall is probably your only option but the question is what will work best there.  How are you getting the wiring to the back wall?  How tall are your ceilings?  I ask these as in ceiling speaker might be a good solution for your surrounds if it is practical to get wires there.

 

  Dipoles are tough because of the open area and you won't get the reflected sound from that open side and it is good to maintain some symmetry even if the room is not symmetrical.  The bookshelves might work OK if you can get them far enough to the side.  It is tough to tell the width of the room by the picture.  They still wouldn't be great for the very side seats but decent for the middle seats if you can get them 5-6 feet or more away.

 

  One solution we have used that might sound a bit strange but works.  Use bookshelves on a shelf but aim them towards the ceiling and slightly forward i.e. not straight up but close.  Bouncing it off the ceiling will diffuse it and make is less localizable,  you might have to increases the distance in the processor a bit.

 

 I'd probably lean more towards bookshelves if I can get some decent placement with them.  Dipoles only if the speakers can't be placed that far apart or you don't want to bounce off the ceiling for aesthetic purposes.  Also, if you can move that couch forward a foot or more if possible it will help the quality of your bass.

post #28303 of 30066
Thanks Bob. Yeah thats why I went with bipoles because Im extremely sick of hearing the surrounds. Even adjusting surround levels manually my last three living rooms have never allowed for the recommended distances for monopole, not even close, and Ive had speaker in my ear for years. No Im avoiding any more stands, my pair of Hsus will likely be returned to the back corners and Ill still need access to that window in the corner so Im done with stand-mounted surrounds until I have no choice. I pretty much came to the conclusion that the mantle and wall install is the best and least obtrusive, glad to hear the height turned out perfect. Thanks again for all the advice.
post #28304 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by unavol View Post

Mine are set to small as well r0n1n. I just thought it sounded better at 50Hz in my room so I left it at 50 instead of the more popular 80Hz. you just have to experiment to see what works best in your room. Have fun and enjoy the process.

Im using Denon and I can only choose 40/60/80 Hz on that range. Right now its set to 60 smile.gif thanks!

Edit: I've set it back to 80, I tried a few flacs and found 80Hz to be a good compromise between acoustic, jazz and rock. Ok ok i know audio is not good in avr but sadly I dont have a dedicated audio setup tongue.gif
Edited by r0n1n - 7/1/13 at 8:09pm
post #28305 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Personally:
- for 5.1, I would go with direct-firing speakers for surround duty, if/when possible; and
- for 7.1, I'd go with bi-/di-poles for side-surround duty and direct-firing for rear-surround duty, if/when possible.

I'm going to this route if dough permits. Currently have ADP190 for surround duties and plans to add a bookshelf.

I dont see any problem with an all-di/bipole surrounds when used in HT. The problem I think is when you listen to multi ch audio where direct firing bookshelf will be preferred. IMHO, YMMV wink.gif
post #28306 of 30066

The type of speaker really has to do with the best speaker for the application.  Many might have their preferences but not everything works in every situation.  I think even most experts would agree that ideally you would have identical speakers all around.  However, this tends to work for only small listening area and not what most of use in our homes.  We use horizontal centers because the TV is in the way and we compromise from using identical speakers.  We have various types of surround speakers to accommodate our listening space, again a tradeoff do to our environment.

 

Also, movies and music are different in there recording standards.  Movies have a standard and the final mix of a movie is done in a dubbing stage which there is less than 20 worldwide.  The dubbing stages are acoustically very similar.  Music studios whether stereo or multichannel vary greatly and there are over 100,000 studios worldwide.  There is no standard for the recording space of music.  Genelec did a great study on this they presented to AES.  They measured something like 160 (I forget the exact number) different music studios and found great acoustic differences.  You can't replicate the recording if you don't know the reference from which it was created.  So whatever sounds best to you for music go for it!

post #28307 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

For a 5.1 surround systems the speakers are supposed be on the side walls and not the back wall.  7.1 should have sides and back speakers.  If you are going to use the back wall for surround speakers that is fine.  It is not as enveloping but many people do it because sides are not practical in their location and better than nor surrounds at all.

Wwhen using Di-poles the listeners should be in the null of the speaker.  They are typically used as side surrounds when the listeners are close to the speakers but can be used as back speakers with the same limitation.  the back of your head should be in line with the front of the speaker to get decent envelopment.  Di-poles are an advantage when the seating is very close to the listener <~5ft.  When you use direct firing speakers you tend to get that speaker in the ear effect and it is difficult to get good envelopment because the sound from the one speaker is overpowering the sound of the other for the listener that is close to it.

 Bi-poles are a good compromise solution and you do not have to be in the null to get the desired effect.  They are basically the same as two direct firing speakers and gives better coverage for the listening area.  If you are sitting right next to the speaker you may get that speaker in the ear effect and not get the envelopment of both surrounds or backs in this case.

 speakers are about application and no one is best for all situations.  In the ideal set up we would have identical speakers all around but that is not always practical in most homes to get the distances needed to make that work for all listeners.

Hi Bob, some questions:-

1. Ideally all the speakers should be the same, have you ever done such an installation and what does it require from the environment (room) in your opinion ?

2. For sides and surrounds, do you follow Dolby or THX specs ? The common belief is that sides should be at 90 degrees to the listening position; slightly raised. What discipline do you use to position the backs speakers ?

3. Furthermore, you seem to know Paradigm speakers quite well, what is the difference between Monitor, Studio and Reference speakers in your opinion. I hear the Monitor and studio range is very good. Is it really worth going Reference ? what I am getting at is that if one wanted both value and serious performance what would you recommend ?

4. Have you heard the MillenaOne Satellite speakers ? - How do they sound ? - I'm told they work very well when teamed up with the Seismic 110 sub ?

Cheers,

Sam
post #28308 of 30066

1. Yes but in larger rooms and using multiple sets of side surrounds if you have multiple rows.  this requires using a separate processor between the processor and amp so the delays and levels can be matched for the other rows.  We usually use a QSC processor for this along with whatever model pre-empt. There are some pre-amps that have this capability but mostly the expensive ones.

 

2. 90 degrees mostly for di-poles, direct radiating usually 110 degrees.  Back speakers I personally like a little more separation than the THX spec.

 

3. Our company just starting carrying them earlier this year.  I had run into them calibrating many times though even before our company carried them.  Although before carrying them I would mostly see only the Studio and Signatures series.  I think the Studios are the sweet spot.  The jump to the Signatures is significant but comes with a big price jump as well.  The Monitors are good for the price but don't have as good off axis response.  They can work well depending on the room.

 

4. Excellent small speakers.  They measure and sound great.  One of the better small speakers I have heard. Highly recommended.  There only problem is they are small speakers and don't have the output as a larger speaker.  You'll have to use a higher crossover with them but that is fine and nothing to fret about.  The seismic 110 is a great sub, the monitor subs win the bang for the buck award amongst the sub lineup.  For the average user the PBK system works well and I would spend the extra to get it.  I can go into more detail another time on what I like about PBK.  The Milennia sub for a small sub has impressed me for its size and is a great design with solid engineering behind it.  It is pricey though but if you need small it works surpassing well.

 

A note about Paradigm from a calibrator's point of view.  I have always liked Paradigm and our company tried to carry them years ago but there was a competing dealer in the area and we couldn't get them.  Thankfully, that dealer sold on the internet and Paradigm and them parted ways. So we quickly picked up the line.  They have some stipulations for dealers which some dealers don't like.  I won't get into that, not appropriate for this forum.

 

 But from a performance point of view they use solid engineering principles and their relation with the NRC and their designs follow proven research.  For instance once you hit the monitor series you have a center channel with a vertically arranged midrange-tweeter design.  This is an important design feature for off axis performance.  You will see many other more brands at higher price points that don't have this and use only a midrange-tweeter-midrange.  I understand using a compromised design at a certain price point or maybe for aesthetic reasons like in a sound bar where vertical space is difficult for that design.  Another feature I like is they also use waves guides on all their designs which not only help with off axis response but with matching the midrange at the crossover frequency.  Again you will see some expensive brands without a waveguide or something similar that don't perform as well.  There are some designs that can be used without a waveguide but typically it has its tradeoffs with drivers and crossovers.  On the higher end I don't see it but Paradigm uses it even on its Cinema series.

 

 I was thrilled when I found out we were getting Paradigm and so far it has been good.

post #28309 of 30066
Any thoughts on my Yamaha 3010's "R.S.C. (Reflected Sound Control)" feature when using bi poles? I do use the Yammy's YPAO, does this mean my Yamaha receiver will be negating running bi poles for surrounds?
post #28310 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

2-3 feet above the listeners head is ideal but rooms aren't always ideal.  Towards the back of the mantle would probably be better than the back wall but the back wall will be fine and probably a better aesthetic solution.  Are you open to somewhat tall stands towards the back corners on 45 degree angle towards the center of the listening area (i.e. aiming at the ottoman)?  They can be in 2-3 feet from the corner and don't have to be right in the corner. You can put them on that current stand, it might not at the ideal height but I would try it there as I think it might be a better solution than the back or side wall.

Here is a good test I like to use to demo surrounds.  Remember, surrounds should be providing envelopment and not very discrete sounds from an exact direction.  They might cue the audience to let them know something is to the side or behind them but they shouldn't call attention to a given area.  When they mix films the purpose is have the audience watch the screen and not things around them.

 Anyway here is a good demo I use, it requires 2 people to do well.  Play the first scene of Master and the Commander before the canons, that's for the sub demo:-)  While the scene is playing close your eyes, you should be enveloped in sound but you might not be noticing it.  Other than some voices and bells you should feel like you are there and not really hearing the surrounds too much.  While you are listening with your eyes closed you might be thinking I don't hear the surrounds too much.  The second person at approximately half to three quarters of the way through the scene hits the stereo button on your processor.

 You should notice the whole soundstage collapse towards the front of the room and you realize that while you weren't sure your surrounds were loud enough or set up correctly that they had actually put you in the movie without calling attention to themselves.  If you don't get this effect or the surrounds are very noticeable then you need to look at your placements, delays and levels.  Give it a try it is a great demo.

 I use it all the time when I hear people say, "I don't hear the surrounds".  If you just want to hear them put the processor in all channels stereo and call it a dayeek.gif

For me personally, I like direct firing surrounds. I had ADPs (though they were V2 Cinemas) at one time and found I did not like them as much as the direct firing Cinema 90s I replaced them with. That was a long time ago, but I did learn I like the "in your face" surround of direct firing over the "subtle yet immersive" surround of di / bipoles. smile.gif

But yeah...all channel stereo? Ugh...that has its use at a party where all you want is the music everywhere, but not in a movie.
post #28311 of 30066

It is tough to tell with Yamaha and any auto EQ. Bi-Dipoles can mess with some auto EQs because they have trouble differentiating direct and reflected sound depending how the speakers and mics are placed.  They often don't take enough measurements to know what is truly going on in a room.   I have tested most of these auto EQ systems and sometimes they do a decent job and other times you look at they did with our measurement equipment and say WTF?

 

  The reflect sound control is a marketing term.  EQ can correct time and frequency it doesn't stop sound from bouncing around the room.  I like the Yamahas because they can be manually tweaked.  Here is something I wrote in another thread not too long ago to help with setting your EQ.

 

Some tips with using these EQ systems.  And this might vary a little depending on the system.  First not everyone can be in the money seat.  Just plain physics will tell you that levels and delays will not be correct for every seat never mind EQ.  So when using some of these systems don't measure seats that are bad seats.  What are bad seats?  Seating placed near corners or walls.  If your only seating is one of these locations you might not have good results.  Avoid seating outside of the speaker area.  Say you have seats on the side of the room and they are further to the side than the left or right speaker, don't use those seats.  They are the cheap seats and don't worry about them, leave them the cheap seats. For systems with multiple position measurements don't measure areas that are not important.  Do change the height as well as the position.  Don't vary the positions too far from the main money seat.  Again, levels, delays and EQ can't be perfect at every seat.  Pick a primary seat or primary area and take the measurements around that area.

 

 Some systems put an emphasis on position one as being the money seat and other just average all the measurements.  Sometimes I have no idea where they based their EQ.  And this can be true of all of them.  Room acoustics can be tricky and like I said what works good in one room might not in another. This is where being able to see the measurements and making smart decisions on whether to use that position really helps.

 

 If the EQ sounds like it lost the bass it might be correct.  Leave it for a couple weeks and then turn it off the EQ and see if it now sounds boomy.  Men in general turn up the bass too much, but once you get used to accurate bass you realize your previous bad ways.  Lastly, if you don't like the sound try doing the auto EQ again.

post #28312 of 30066

There is nothing wrong with direct firing surrounds and are often preferred.  The problem that happens with them is coverage over a relatively large listening area for the size room.  If you are sitting 2 feet from the right surround and 12 feet from the left surround no amount of adjusting the levels and delays is going to fix that.  You will have the speaker in the ear effect.  If you can be in the middle seats then they can work well.  Some will have money seats and cheap seats.  Some will have mostly good seats but no great seats.  Some seats will be cheap seats no matter what and shouldn't be included in calibration.

post #28313 of 30066
I'm picking up my Paradigm speakers tomorrow, Atoms, Center 1, Surround 1....I'd like these to mount them on the wall. What do I need?

I saw this somewhere http://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Clamping-Mounting-Surrounding-MS56B/dp/B000X9O8SI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2OQGWAX1WSTSX&coliid=I2KGFHSJKYZAE0 as a recommendation, but not sure about the Paradigm setup.
post #28314 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbuck View Post

I'm picking up my Paradigm speakers tomorrow, Atoms, Center 1, Surround 1....I'd like these to mount them on the wall. What do I need?

I saw this somewhere http://www.amazon.com/VideoSecu-Clamping-Mounting-Surrounding-MS56B/dp/B000X9O8SI/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2OQGWAX1WSTSX&coliid=I2KGFHSJKYZAE0 as a recommendation, but not sure about the Paradigm setup.

I use those same mounts for my speakers. Best ones you can buy.
I seem to remember paying more for mine.mad.gif
post #28315 of 30066
Thanks, what about for the Center 1 and Surround 1, I'm guessing the Surround 1 actually has mounts, but what's the best way for that center?
post #28316 of 30066
Surround 1 includes brackets. Center depends on where you plan
On putting it. If your talking about wall mounting it (I assume) you
Can can get some sturdy wall mount bookshelf, the kind with the
"L" brackets and a flat piece of wood. Home Depot etc.
post #28317 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Surround 1 includes brackets. Center depends on where you plan
On putting it. If your talking about wall mounting it (I assume) you
Can can get some sturdy wall mount bookshelf, the kind with the
"L" brackets and a flat piece of wood. Home Depot etc.

Is that the best way to mount the center?
post #28318 of 30066
Don't know, google didn't return a lot of options.

What don't you like about it?
post #28319 of 30066

Paradigm makes wall mounts for the Atoms it is model number MB-60.  The center you'll have to come up with something else, a shelf would be easiest. 

post #28320 of 30066
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Don't know, google didn't return a lot of options.

What don't you like about it?

I like it fine, just wondered if it was the best way to do it, guess for some reason I had rattling supports in my head. smile.gif
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