or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Paradigm Owners Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Paradigm Owners Thread - Page 949

post #28441 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

Goneten,

  Di-poles work best when people are positioned close to them.  When people are close to a direct firing speaker they get what I call that speaker in the ear effect.  That one speaker very close to them will call attention to itself.  Di-poles work good for that scenario as drivers are not aimed at the listener.  There is no problem using di-poles for back speakers but you have to make sure the phase is correct.  To do that you reverse sides of the back speakers, left speaker goes on the back right and right speaker on the back left.  This is if you are using di-poles for the side surrounds as well.  The backs don't need to be reversed if the side surrounds are direct firing or bi-poles.

You're referring to dipoles as having a designated left and right speaker. When I bought my SA-ADP in wall speakers they weren't designated as a left and a right speaker. I'm assuming the ADP-590's are the same way, no designation of left or right speakers. Does Paradigm have any speakers that designate if they're left or right speakers? And you mention that with dipoles there's no speakers that would be aimed directly at the listener. With the Paradigm ADP speakers...doesn't the woofer face directly out towards the listener? If what you're describing is a dipole speaker (i.e. speakers that are designated left and right, speakers not facing the listener), it doesn't sound like the Paradigm ADP speakers are true dipoles (maybe that's why they call them Adapted DiPoles).
post #28442 of 30057
Quote:
You're referring to dipoles as having a designated left and right speaker. When I bought my SA-ADP in wall speakers they weren't designated as a left and a right speaker. I'm assuming the ADP-590's are the same way, no designation of left or right speakers.
FWIW: My ADP-370s had no L/R designation, but my ADP-590s did.
post #28443 of 30057

ADP-590s have left and right designations.  The front firing woofer is below 300hz and it is more difficult for us to localize below those frequencies(not impossible) and there is not much dialogue below there.  It is a very well designed speaker for its purpose.

post #28444 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

ADP-590s have left and right designations.  The front firing woofer is below 300hz and it is more difficult for us to localize below those frequencies(not impossible) and there is not much dialogue below there.  It is a very well designed speaker for its purpose.

Ah, I didn't know the ADP-590's had left/right designations. My inwall SA-ADP's didn't.
post #28445 of 30057
post #28446 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by globalgreg View Post

Ah, I didn't know the ADP-590's had left/right designations. My inwall SA-ADP's didn't.

That's cause they don't. The 590 owners manual says, "Your ADP speakers may have left/right designations" but I couldn't find a designation on the speaker itself. Each speaker was shipped in its own box and not as a matching pair. Since the tweet/mid driver is duplicated on each end of the speaker (for a total of five drivers per speaker) this makes sense that they're not designated left/right and are instead interchangeable.
post #28447 of 30057
I am pretty sure we are going to see the Studio V.6 at CEDIA. I went to my local dealer yesterday to buy something and asked about V.6 and was telling them I thought they may be introduced at CEDIA...........they did not deny it and more or less seemed to agree (I think they know already). The guy said Anthem has new receivers coming out for sure. I got a chance to listen to the Inspiration (for a half hour or so) and a brief listen to the Tribute (I heard them months ago.....they sold them and got more in).

The Inspiration sounds fantastic.........super detailed and no harshness detectable at all in the high freq's.....really nice bass. The sales dude says the Bass is much better on the Inspir than on the S2 and that the crossover is also better on the Inspiration.

I was still debating on getting a V5 cc690 or waiting for V6..........I think I may wait because the discount on the cc690 is only 20%......and I can probably get the same on the V6 cc690.
Edited by JKR1963 - 7/18/13 at 12:27am
post #28448 of 30057

Type A check them with a battery, you will see the driver orientation.

post #28449 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyDee View Post

I just noticed that Paradigm has new web site, looks nice. Moreover - they show MSRP prices, finally!

New website is so much better! Though the filtering on the left is a little cluttered. It is far more responsive. The pictures don't seem as good. And YES! Finally the prices available for verification. I don't like secret lists. I wonder if they are considering premium stores like Crutchfield to carry more than just the Shift series.
post #28450 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

New website is so much better! Though the filtering on the left is a little cluttered. It is far more responsive. The pictures don't seem as good. And YES! Finally the prices available for verification. I don't like secret lists. I wonder if they are considering premium stores like Crutchfield to carry more than just the Shift series.

Look at the MSRP of the SUB2. It was 10k and is now 9. Unless that is in CA money and not converted to US. If that is the case, then I am wrong and all is right in the world. Not that I paid 10k for my SUB2 but you know...
post #28451 of 30057
Quote:
Look at the MSRP of the SUB2. It was 10k and is now 9.
I'm looking at the SUB2's product page and I see an MSRP of $10,499 (CAD).
post #28452 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

New website is so much better! Though the filtering on the left is a little cluttered. It is far more responsive. The pictures don't seem as good. And YES! Finally the prices available for verification. I don't like secret lists. I wonder if they are considering premium stores like Crutchfield to carry more than just the Shift series.

I hope so - I would like to buy more Paradigms but buying them at list price is not going to happen and driving many hours to buy them is also not going to happen. I already know I like Paradigms, I don't need to go to a boutique shop to hear them.
post #28453 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL 
Goneten,

Di-poles work best when people are positioned close to them. When people are close to a direct firing speaker they get what I call that speaker in the ear effect. That one speaker very close to them will call attention to itself. Di-poles work good for that scenario as drivers are not aimed at the listener. There is no problem using di-poles for back speakers but you have to make sure the phase is correct. To do that you reverse sides of the back speakers, left speaker goes on the back right and right speaker on the back left. This is if you are using di-poles for the side surrounds as well. The backs don't need to be reversed if the side surrounds are direct firing or bi-poles.

Okay, so you feel dipoles won't be wasted in my current situation with couch close to the back wall? I really don't want to use bookshelves if I have a choice. My only concern is the post from sdurani where he explains the operation of a dipole speaker and says that back wall mounting is not a good idea. Do you agree with his explanation, or do you think I have nothing to worry about?

Explanation is here :
Quote:
sdurani
A dipole speaker has 2 sets of drivers wired out of phase to create a null (quiet zone) at the sides of the speaker. The idea is to place them directly to your sides so that all the listeners are in the null. This way, they hear very little direct sound from the speakers and are instead enveloped by reflected sound from all around the room.

Placing the dipoles on the back wall will leave all the listeners out of the nulls, the exact opposite of what is intended. At least one set of drivers on one of the speakers will be pointing towards the listeners, beaming direct sound towards them rather than reflected sound. In which case it's pointless to spend extra on dipole speakers when you're not going to use them for what they're designed to do.

If I had to place my surrounds on the back wall, I would use direct radiators or bipoles, and spread them as far apart as possible. The wide spead will make the speakers themselves a little less noticable, while improving envelopment and allowing you to better hear left-vs-right separation of stereo surround channels
.
post #28454 of 30057
Quote:
... At least one set of drivers on one of the speakers will be pointing towards the listeners, beaming direct sound towards them ...
With the speakers mounted ~12" (or so) above your head - I don't imagine you'd want to mount them right at ear-level (when seated) - none of the drivers will be "beaming direct sound" at your head.

Sound will be radiating from above your head, outward from six faces on two speakers (and reflecting off any nearby wall that's perpendicular to your back wall). That should provide diffuse audio.

It may not sound as good or work as well as a pair of bookshelf speakers pointed at your listening position, but your situation calls for a compromise, and this one seems pretty reasonable.
Edited by eljaycanuck - 7/18/13 at 9:45am
post #28455 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwheelwright View Post

Look at the MSRP of the SUB2. It was 10k and is now 9. Unless that is in CA money and not converted to US. If that is the case, then I am wrong and all is right in the world. Not that I paid 10k for my SUB2 but you know...

Most people consider $9,999 to be the same as paying $10K. Especially after taxes it's well over. In California sales tax is at least 8.75%, so add another $875. Hopefully the dealer gives you a discount / price break because I've not heard of any willing to pay your sales tax.
post #28456 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

I'm looking at the SUB2's product page and I see an MSRP of $10,499 (CAD).
Prices have definitely changed. I just looked again and it says 9,999. The C5 and the S8s were 4299 yesterday and now they are listed as 4499.
post #28457 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

Most people consider $9,999 to be the same as paying $10K. Especially after taxes it's well over. In California sales tax is at least 8.75%, so add another $875. Hopefully the dealer gives you a discount / price break because I've not heard of any willing to pay your sales tax.
When I looked yesterday it said $8,999 and now it says $9,999. With tax I still got almost 40% off when I bought mine.
post #28458 of 30057
Funny, I'm looking at the product page right now and it says $10,499. Weird.
post #28459 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

Funny, I'm looking at the product page right now and it says $10,499. Weird.

I bet it has to with the fact that I am in the US. Maybe it is converting the prices.
post #28460 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL View Post

ADP-590s have left and right designations.  The front firing woofer is below 300hz and it is more difficult for us to localize below those frequencies(not impossible) and there is not much dialogue below there.  It is a very well designed speaker for its purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Type A View Post

That's cause they don't. The 590 owners manual says, "Your ADP speakers may have left/right designations" but I couldn't find a designation on the speaker itself. Each speaker was shipped in its own box and not as a matching pair. Since the tweet/mid driver is duplicated on each end of the speaker (for a total of five drivers per speaker) this makes sense that they're not designated left/right and are instead interchangeable.
I never found any left or right designation markings on my ADP-590's or ADP-390's so I just mounted them up and they sound great.
post #28461 of 30057

Goneten, Sdurani's statement is correct but it is assuming normal seating placement which you do not have.  A couch very near the back wall is not ideal for a number of reasons but sometimes that is what we have to work with.  If you do use bookshelves moving them towards the corner helps with not making them as localizable or give the speaker in the ear effect but has its acoustic tradeoffs as well.  Although your seating might not put you in the null of the dipoles they will still be  better than bookshelves that aim at you for this close placement application.

 

The trick to using dipoles in this fashion is to make sure the phase is correct.  When you connect a battery to the terminals of a dipole speaker one of the midrange drivers will push out and the other won't or will suck in.  Make sure you put the +lead of the battery to the +terminal of the speakers and the negatives should match as well.  For the surround speakers the one that pushes out needs to face the screen. If both speakers push out you have a bi-pole.  Sometime with these 'adapted' designs you only notice the front woofer pushing out and not the other speakers.  If this happens take the woofer out and disconnect it then you'll see the midrange drivers move.

 

 If the speakers do not have a marked left and right or some other marking such as arrows or dot for the in phase side just test them with the battery.  Reverse the speaker wires if you need them to do the opposite directions.  For the back speakers make sure the speakers that are pushing out aim at each other and not the side wall.  Here is some guidelines that explain it pretty well.

 

http://www.atlantictechnology.com/Upload/PDFs/tech_tips/AT-TT-No10-print.pdf

 

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=66471

post #28462 of 30057
Thanks for your advice BobL! Very informative. I plan on addressing acoustic issues with thick broadband traps on the back wall which will at least help the situation somewhat. I just hope the acoustic treatment won't affect the dipole performance negatively. Is there a recommended height that they need to be mounted, or can I just position them above ear height on either side of the couch? Perhaps I'll draw you a diagram of my lounge and you can see confirm for me.

Thanks again Bob!
post #28463 of 30057


Here is the pic of the room. Couch will be slightly back from the rear wall. It won't be up against it. So placing dipoles 30 cm above ear height on either side of the couch is the plan. Acoustic treatment will be directly behind the couch, so the dipoles will be beside the treatment. Will have three panels together on the rear wall to address boundary issues. Two panels will be used for ceiling reflection. Not sure of the front wall yet.
post #28464 of 30057

Showing a picture definitely helps.  In looking at your room and taking into account aesthetics and acoustics here is what I'd recommend.  First I don't think you would benefit much, if at all from a 7.1 system.  I'm not sure where you plan to place the side surrounds?  So for the surround speakers I'd use the di-poles or bi-poles above that picture behind your couch or above your panels.  Actually, I'd prefer bi-poles in this orientation.  If you are going to place speakers more to the sides of the couch mono-poles would be better.  Height is typically 60-90cm feet above ear height.  It is tough to tell by looking at the picture how tall your ceilings are?

 

If you weren't getting panels I'd say place foam or fiberglass behind that picture to reduce reflections.  If the painting is fabric and not over a hard surface of course.  It is a nice way to an acoustic panel.

 

I remember you discussing the front speakers and possibly using 3 Studio 20s?  Although, I am a big fan of identical speakers especially for the front.  Aesthetically, I don't think I would do that in for your room.  I'd use a dedicated center channel on the top of the TV stand and raise the TV behind it.  I wouldn't put a speaker Studio 20 or center channel on the shelf below the TV.  You are better with good placement of a center speaker than poor placement of 3 identical speakers.  I think you'd have to raise your TV too much to use a Studio 20 on top of that stand, if you are willing to do that great.  Remember my responses are trying to balance aesthetic and acoustic concerns.

 

For acoustic treatments in the front it would depend on how far the studio 20's would be from the front wall?  If they can't be more than 107 cm (assuming 80hz crossover) from the front wall I would place them closer to the front wall and put acoustic treatments behind them to absorb SBIR.

post #28465 of 30057
Hi Bob. The plan was never to go 7.1 since I don't really have space for it. What you don't see is the other side of the wall, which is about 7 meters away from where the couch is, so side wall mounting is a no-go. biggrin.gif

The plan from the start was purely a 5.1 configuration. My idea was to put the dipoles above seated height, on either side of the 3 acoustic panels which would be placed where the painting is (painting is going). But you suggest that bipoles or monopoles would be recommended if I have to space them apart. I reckon the spacing of the surrounds would be around 2m.

If you still think dipoles won't work in this scenario, please let me know. It's not that I can't do monopoles, it's just that between the two options, those ADP590's will offer a much cleaner look which I like.

The stand is definitely going. I'm having a custom low profile cabinet made, all equipment will be hidden from view. Installing a dedicated control system for that. I've decided to go cc690 as a center speaker - to hell with it, it's overkill, but everyone and their Uncle are telling me it's the one of the best center speakers available so yeah. Center speaker will be placed on top of cabinet. Current TV will be replaced soon with a Samsung LED 46 (F7500) which will go on the wall.

I'm about 1.8m tall, but the J23 stands seem appropriate for the Studio 20's because if I'm seated the tweeters are more or less at ear height. I'm basing this off measurements, I don't have the equipment yet. biggrin.gif Ceiling height is around 3.5 meters. I was planning on putting 2 GIK 244 panels at the first reflection points on the ceiling. That painting you see behind the couch will be going. wink.gif

The speakers will be positioned about 20 cm away from the wall. Which is better than having them right up against it. I have a clear plan of what I want to do to the acoustics of the room, but my main concern at this point are the surrounds. I'm just a little nervous about that since I can't borrow a pair.

Thanks again for your advice!
Edited by goneten - 7/19/13 at 8:16am
post #28466 of 30057

If you are going to place them more to the sides I wouldn't use di-poles.  For the fronts if you treat behind the speakers at 20 cm you could use standard 2" thick fiberglass panels. 

post #28467 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL 
If you are going to place them more to the sides I wouldn't use di-poles. For the fronts if you treat behind the speakers at 20 cm you could use standard 2" thick fiberglass panels.

Alright so you reckon the dipoles spaced 2 meters apart is a no-go. So what would you recommend as the maximum distance apart for good performance for the ADP590's? Otherwise my only options are Studio 20 bookshelves, since my distributors tell me that they aren't bringing in Studio 10's, or in-walls, which aren't an option at all. smile.gif I'll be using GIK Monster traps for the rear wall treatment.
post #28468 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slickguy2100 View Post

I'm considering upgrading to separates from my current Denon AVR1912 receiver. I have had my eye on the Marantz AV7005 (or 7701) pre pro combined with the Marantz MM7055 amp to drive my speaker setup which consists of Paradigm Studio 60 v5 floors, CC-490 center, Paradigm Monitor ADP-390 surrounds, and a Paradigm DSP 3200 sub. Right now I seem to be missing that live, dynamic sound I heard when listening to the 60's before I purchased them. Movies sound great but for Music, the low end seems kinda weak so I use my sub to help when I'm in Stereo mode. Anyway, I had a few people tell me that the Marantz amp just won't be enough to make a huge difference and they recommended a Parasound 5250 amp and combine it with whatever processor I want. I'm looking for some suggestions and my price range for the combo (pre & amp) is kinda maxed out in the mid to high $2,000 range. Another option (your opinions??) would be to go with an Emotiva UMC-200 & their new XPA-5 amp (200w x 5, all channels driven). the rep i spoke to yesterday said they have a new design, same specs and it's for sale but they don't have it online yet officially until after their summer sale. The price range is excellent and it looks like a few of the big name reviewers actually had some positive things to say about the brand and the quality (i also know there are diehard haters too, as with any brand). The people I've talked to at Emotiva seem pretty passionate about audio and seem very informative and engaging (more so than when i talked to some people at Marantz who seemed like I was wasting their time. Anyway, suggestions? I appreciated any help guys!!
I went with 3 XPA-100s for the front mains and an XPA-200 for the surrounds. Emotiva amps are awesome. The build quality is the best I've owned. And I am a previous Anthem owner. I will never go back to a receiver. Moreover, mono blocks have an advantage of being located close to the speaker which eliminates speaker wire hassle. The 30 day return policy made the purchase a no brainer for me. I would also consider Outlaw and Parasound amps. Good luck with your decision.
post #28469 of 30057

It is not that 2 meters apart is bad if that is over the listeners, if it is going to be placed to the side of the listeners then a mono-pole or bi-pole is a better solution.  There is nothing wrong with in walls except that there are so many cheap ones out there.  Actually, in wall speakers can have a lot of acoustic advantages over freestanding or on wall speakers if done well.

post #28470 of 30057
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL 
It is not that 2 meters apart is bad if that is over the listeners, if it is going to be placed to the side of the listeners then a mono-pole or bi-pole is a better solution.
\\

When you say over the listeners, you mean on the ceiling?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Speakers
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Speakers › Paradigm Owners Thread