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Paradigm Owners Thread - Page 973

post #29161 of 30092

I remain skeptical about the value.  My 2 yr old Hsu Research sub at $879 goes down to 16 Hz and has several cutting edge tuning options.  The Paradigm Ultracube 12 sub retails around the $1400 mark and goes down to 19 Hz.  For 1400 you can get ID subs that will pound the living daylights out of your room.


Edited by audio4life - 12/13/13 at 4:35am
post #29162 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

I'm partial to paradigms,having owned all 4 lines. I listen to the B&W at a dealers and while
The CM line is very nice I think they are a bit overpriced.

I would recommend that you get a different sub other than Paradigm.
For the money you would spend on the dsp-3200 you can get
A MUCH better performing sub for the same money from an internet direct company. (ID)

Good brands to consider are -Rythmik,SVS,HSU and PSA.

You Paradigm or B&W speakers don't have to have matching subs from the same company!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougReim View Post

I agree with grasshoppers regarding the Paradigm sub. There are a lot of good subs from the ID companies that I think will give you more and better bass for less money than the Paradigm sub will.
That's not a knock against Paradigm, I like their speakers.

Thanks guys! The info on the sub is what I am been hearing from a lot of AVSers and I have been looking at some other options such as SVS, HSU, and Rythmik. It is just that my dealer is giving me a package deal and actually the DSP-3200 is not going to cost any more than the SVS SB12-NSD and will be less than the HSU or Rythmik options. That is one reason I am still considering the DSP. What makes the other better than the DS-3200?
post #29163 of 30092
^^^they play louder and dig deeper...essential for HT!
post #29164 of 30092
The Monitor 12 has 16hz extension and is $999, a little more than $100 than the HSU. I am not sure how the monitor and the DSP compare for overall output but I would bet neither of them play as loud as an HSU ported sub with a 15" woofer. The question is how loud do you listen? Can your speakers keep up? Having a sub that can play 125db when your speakers only go to 100db is overkill. And against the DSP-3200 is it worth chasing a few hz or a few db difference? None of these subs are a slouch.

HSU tuning options is a bass control and port blockers, it is not EQ. Not even close. So you would still need an EQ and a measurement system to do what comes built into the PBK subs. For about the same price, I would rather have cleaner bass that can be achieved with EQ than something that can play louder and boomier. You might have different goals for your system and that is fine. In my system it was a big difference and I had an SVS sub to compare.
post #29165 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttlnb View Post

The Monitor 12 has 16hz extension and is $999, a little more than $100 than the HSU. I am not sure how the monitor and the DSP compare for overall output but I would bet neither of them play as loud as an HSU ported sub with a 15" woofer. The question is how loud do you listen? Can your speakers keep up? Having a sub that can play 125db when your speakers only go to 100db is overkill. And against the DSP-3200 is it worth chasing a few hz or a few db difference? None of these subs are a slouch.

HSU tuning options is a bass control and port blockers, it is not EQ. Not even close. So you would still need an EQ and a measurement system to do what comes built into the PBK subs. For about the same price, I would rather have cleaner bass that can be achieved with EQ than something that can play louder and boomier. You might have different goals for your system and that is fine. In my system it was a big difference and I had an SVS sub to compare.

Thanks ttlnb. This is very helpful. That is the challenge I am looking at. I do not listen to content at reference level and some on here would probably think I listen to things not loud enough. However, i am more interested in the detail of the content and the speakers/sub than the sheer power. Sure, I want the bass to kick in a movie but I also do not need to shake my house apart...

My thought with the Studio 100s and the CC-690 is that they will take care of most of the musical bass and the sub can then be set to really focus on the low frequencies when the Studios can not keep up... I like the PBK option and have read a lot of good things about it but I have not been able to get a lot of feedback on the DSP-3200 so everyone's help here is appreciated!
post #29166 of 30092

The HSU subs have Q control, which controls the tightness sound of the bass, and with the operating mode switch, has 5 operating modes. You can tune it for max bass output or max bass extention, but it doesn't have an equalizer. That's what my receiver's room correction is for. And it goes plenty loud, testing at 115 db at 25Hz and 109 db at 16 Hz. Of course, one's receiver would set the volume level and one can turn down the volume knob on the sub if so desired.

 

I replaced a Paradigm sub with the Hsu VTF 15H, and the difference was not subtle.  I was quite impressed though in how the Hsu handled music, night and day better than my Paradigm.  The bottom line is you get more value for your dollar buying internet direct.  That no doubt is why the Paradigm dealer in this case is discounting the Paradigm sub so much.  You could always try it out(the Paradigm), if you're happy with it that's all that matters.


Edited by audio4life - 12/13/13 at 8:39am
post #29167 of 30092
Does your receiver show you the measurements so you can find the best spot to place your sub or seating? You can do that with PBK. I haven't had the same experience with MOST receivers. You can't EQ a null. For this 2.1 system I tried an SVS PB-1000 and chose the Paradigm Monitor 8 because it was cleaner bass and I wasn't going to play that loud, but I wouldn't hesitate to get multiple bigger subs if I needed more output. I used to own two SVS ultras the cylinder ones but I never listened to my movies that loud. Only in show off mode would I ever turn it up that loud and it was impressive but it wasn't comfortable to listen at that level for a whole film.

Now if you have a bigger room or listen at loud levels you may need the better output of an ID sub, but please don't discount the value of proper placements which requires a measurement system and a good EQ. Those costs need to be factored when buying ID and somewhat reduces their value. I'm not against ID subs and they definitely have their place but I don't blindly recommend them for all situations like I see all too commonly on the forums. A person needs to get what is best for their situation.
post #29168 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttlnb View Post

Does your receiver show you the measurements so you can find the best spot to place your sub or seating? You can do that with PBK. I haven't had the same experience with MOST receivers. You can't EQ a null. For this 2.1 system I tried an SVS PB-1000 and chose the Paradigm Monitor 8 because it was cleaner bass and I wasn't going to play that loud, but I wouldn't hesitate to get multiple bigger subs if I needed more output. I used to own two SVS ultras the cylinder ones but I never listened to my movies that loud. Only in show off mode would I ever turn it up that loud and it was impressive but it wasn't comfortable to listen at that level for a whole film.

Now if you have a bigger room or listen at loud levels you may need the better output of an ID sub, but please don't discount the value of proper placements which requires a measurement system and a good EQ. Those costs need to be factored when buying ID and somewhat reduces their value. I'm not against ID subs and they definitely have their place but I don't blindly recommend them for all situations like I see all too commonly on the forums. A person needs to get what is best for their situation.

My receiver is a Denon 3310Ci. It does have Audyssey MultEQ XT but I am nto sure about EQ a null. My room is 10ft x 18.75ft x 8.66ft (WxLxH).
post #29169 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

I think the Studio 10's would be fine for the rears! I feel that my
Sig S1's (in Birdseye. wink.gif) are 'bored' doing surround duty.
They whisper to me and tell me that I'm not using them to their
Full potential. LOL


Excellent....I was thinking for rears, they'd be more than sufficient. I'm just wondering how badly the cherry coloured studios will clash with the birdseye maple finish of the S2s and C3....hopefully they bear at least *some* resemblance. Anybody ever seen them side-by-side?
post #29170 of 30092
So I purchase my first Paradigm set, heres what I got:

Center 3
Monitor 11's
Sub 12
Surround 3
Atom Monitors for Surround Back Speakers

I won't be able to test out the gear until the end of January when I move into the new place.

I am curious if it would have been better to get 4x surround 3's rather then the Atoms for the rear. I noticed that the THX specs asks for all Bipoler speakers in the rear positions. I was thinking when I made the purchase that the Atoms would be a good for the rear for Movies, my surround mixing / monitoring, and Music with the surround 3 filling in the sides. I've read that bipole isn't as good for music and I thought the trade off would be that its a hybrid. Movies is really my focus however so now I am not sure. What does everyone else use in their 7.1 setups?

Also I was thinking of powering them with an Anthem MRX 510. Is there an advantage with going with a 710 this the speakers I purchased?

Thanks, and I look forward to trying out the new system. So far I'm really impressed!
post #29171 of 30092
I'll try to explain peaks and nulls to the best of my ability. I am no expert so if anyone wants to chime in please do. In any room there will be certain spots where certain bass frequencies will be boomy or lack bass altogether. These are room modes or standing waves, I'm not sure the difference. Walk the room and you will hear different bass response, it is audible and not just something you pick up with a microphone. Anyway a subwoofer interacts in the room and creates these peaks and nulls and you can get a different bass response depending on where the seating/subs are placed. I have seen different bass response by moving the microphone or moving the sub, so I know this is very true.

With any response there are these bumps and dips that EQ tries to correct by boosting or cutting these frequency ranges. If there is a dip in the response and it is because there is a null no amount of boost from the EQ will fix it. There can be a dip not caused by a null that can be boosted such as a speaker/subwoofer not having a flat frequency response. These EQ systems do not know if a dip is a null or not. To get the best bass throughout the listening area often requires multiple subs and EQ. If you only care about 1 seat or a small seating area then 1 sub and EQ will work fine, this was my situation for this 2.1 system.

A couple tips I was given. The peaks and nulls will be the biggest if the sub is placed in a corner. When doing measurements, move your subs and/or seating is to find a spot with peaks and not nulls, a flatter response with nulls will not be able to be corrected with EQ but a response with peaks the EQ systems usually flatten very well. This advice was invaluable when setting up my sub. It took about a half hour but the results were fantastic and I learned a lot seeing how everything interacted.
post #29172 of 30092
3D,

From my understanding the type of surround used will depend on your layout. In the perfect system you would use identical speakers all around but this is often not practical and usually only works for a small listening area. For a larger listening area bipoles work better to get greater coverage for all seats. If seating is very near the speaker than dipoles work good to help reduce the localization of having a speaker so close to you.

I have exhausted my acoustic knowledge and typing skills for a while:-)
post #29173 of 30092
Nevermind
Edited by BigCoolJesus - 12/14/13 at 5:16am
post #29174 of 30092
Just to finish a thought.

Received the Salamander Designs Miami 237 console yesterday. Absolutely beautiful piece of furniture.

Thanks for the recs.
post #29175 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by ttlnb View Post

I'll try to explain peaks and nulls to the best of my ability. I am no expert so if anyone wants to chime in please do. In any room there will be certain spots where certain bass frequencies will be boomy or lack bass altogether. These are room modes or standing waves, I'm not sure the difference. Walk the room and you will hear different bass response, it is audible and not just something you pick up with a microphone. Anyway a subwoofer interacts in the room and creates these peaks and nulls and you can get a different bass response depending on where the seating/subs are placed. I have seen different bass response by moving the microphone or moving the sub, so I know this is very true.

With any response there are these bumps and dips that EQ tries to correct by boosting or cutting these frequency ranges. If there is a dip in the response and it is because there is a null no amount of boost from the EQ will fix it. There can be a dip not caused by a null that can be boosted such as a speaker/subwoofer not having a flat frequency response. These EQ systems do not know if a dip is a null or not. To get the best bass throughout the listening area often requires multiple subs and EQ. If you only care about 1 seat or a small seating area then 1 sub and EQ will work fine, this was my situation for this 2.1 system.

A couple tips I was given. The peaks and nulls will be the biggest if the sub is placed in a corner. When doing measurements, move your subs and/or seating is to find a spot with peaks and not nulls, a flatter response with nulls will not be able to be corrected with EQ but a response with peaks the EQ systems usually flatten very well. This advice was invaluable when setting up my sub. It took about a half hour but the results were fantastic and I learned a lot seeing how everything interacted.

Thanks ttlnb! This will prove helpful. Think I will give the DSP-3200 a try with the PBK kit. I may also order a SVS SB12-NSD to compare.
post #29176 of 30092
Dear Paradigm owners - Need your expertise and advice please::::

I am really interested in Paradigm speakers. I have never used them before but read good reviews.


Can you please suggest me the best speakers for my set up below? I need a 7.1 set up.

My Receiver = DENON 4311

Subwoofer = Sunfire SDS-12

Room side = 24 ft long / 15 ft wide

Primary Use = 95% MOVIES ; 5% Music
post #29177 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage1000 View Post

Dear Paradigm owners - Need your expertise and advice please::::

I am really interested in Paradigm speakers. I have never used them before but read good reviews.


Can you please suggest me the best speakers for my set up below? I need a 7.1 set up.

My Receiver = DENON 4311

Subwoofer = Sunfire SDS-12

Room side = 24 ft long / 15 ft wide

Primary Use = 95% MOVIES ; 5% Music

Depends how much you want to spend. paradigm has 3 speaker lines.
For just movies I always thought that the Monitor line was good.

Do you have a local dealer?? Paradigm speakers can't be bought online or mail order!
post #29178 of 30092
yes - I have a few local authorized dealers around.
post #29179 of 30092
Monitor line
Mains- monitor 9 or 11
Center- Center 3
Side surrounds-surround 1 or 3
Rear surrounds-Atom monitor

Studio Line-
Mains- Studio 60
Center-cc690 (preferred) or cc590
Side surrounds-adp590
Rear surrounds-Studio 10

Get to your dealer and listen to some speakers!
post #29180 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage1000 View Post

Dear Paradigm owners - Need your expertise and advice please::::

I am really interested in Paradigm speakers. I have never used them before but read good reviews.


Can you please suggest me the best speakers for my set up below? I need a 7.1 set up.

My Receiver = DENON 4311

Subwoofer = Sunfire SDS-12

Room side = 24 ft long / 15 ft wide

Primary Use = 95% MOVIES ; 5% Music

You should think about upgrading your sub....it doesn't dig as deep as a good HT sub should.
The output of the sub drops pretty fast below 40hz. Doesn't have to be a Paradigm sub

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/review-sunfire-dynamic-series-sds-12-subwoofer-page-3

Your Denon should be fine.
post #29181 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage1000 View Post

Dear Paradigm owners - Need your expertise and advice please::::

I am really interested in Paradigm speakers. I have never used them before but read good reviews.


Can you please suggest me the best speakers for my set up below? I need a 7.1 set up.

My Receiver = DENON 4311

Subwoofer = Sunfire SDS-12

Room side = 24 ft long / 15 ft wide

Primary Use = 95% MOVIES ; 5% Music
The two things that will help you make a decision is your budget and your ears. Set a budget and then ask your dealer/dealers to let you listen to speakers within your budget. Don't be surprised if you end up going slightly over budget. Once the high end bug bites it's hard to control your your budget. Good luck and have fun!
post #29182 of 30092
mirage1000, grasshoppers is right, you need to go to dealer and listen....
I agree with grasshopers using ADP as side surround and mono-pole as rear surround.
Remember this TV show from the 70's? Kung Fu
>>What do you hear? That is key
Quote:
Master Po: Close your eyes. What do you hear?
Young Caine: I hear the water, I hear the birds.
Po: Do you hear your own heartbeat?
Caine: No.
Po: Do you hear the grasshopper which is at your feet?
Caine: Old man, how is it that you hear these things?
Po: Young man, how is it that you do not?

My soapbox:
For “best” audio/sound in a listening room, these parameters are tackled in prioritized order:
1. Speaker location, 2. Listener position, 3. Acoustic treatments, 4. Electronic correction.

Please - consider Acoustic Treatments , it really is a night-day difference.

fwiw - I really love my Monitor set-up in our 11.3 HT.
HT Layout:
HT%2520Plan%25202x4%2520Seats-Riser-acoustics%2520Nov-2013_subs.jpg

HT (2013) ......................... Screen shot ........................................ Rear shot
HT%252011.3%2520cover%2520off%2520Pano-b.jpg . _MG_5464.jpg


Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage1000 View Post

Dear Paradigm owners - Need your expertise and advice please::::
I am really interested in Paradigm speakers. I have never used them before but read good reviews.
Can you please suggest me the best speakers for my set up below? I need a 7.1 set up.

My Receiver = DENON 4311
Subwoofer = Sunfire SDS-12
Room side = 24 ft long / 15 ft wide
Primary Use = 95% MOVIES ; 5% Music

Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Monitor line
Mains- monitor 9 or 11
Center- Center 3
Side surrounds-surround 1 or 3
Rear surrounds-Atom monitor

Studio Line-
Mains- Studio 60
Center-cc690 (preferred) or cc590
Side surrounds-adp590
Rear surrounds-Studio 10

Get to your dealer and listen to some speakers!
post #29183 of 30092
Sub question :

13 x 16 x 7.5 room, one short side open with acoustically treated sliding doors

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464013/no-back-wall-for-new-home-theater

Paradigm S8
Paradigm C5
Paradigm ADP3
McIntosh MC8207
Integra 80.3
Oppo BDP-103

50/50 Music/Movies

I was considering dual Paradigm Sub 12's, but the more I read, the more I think I can do better for the money. Would dual SVS SB13-Ultra's be a better option and would they work well with my setup? I had considered S6/C3/ADP1 config since my room is kind of small, but I want the low end of the S8 for 2 channel listening.

Thanks for any thoughts.
post #29184 of 30092
I think either will power that size room louder than most will listen. SVS advantages are output and Paradigm's advantage is PBK. The PBK which can help finding the best placements for your sub and seating. Dual subs is the best starting point to get the best bass at your seating locations. If you already have another measurement and equalization system or plan on getting them than I would go SVS otherwise Paradigm. You want to make sure you integrate the subs well.
post #29185 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsteak View Post

Sub question :

13 x 16 x 7.5 room, one short side open with acoustically treated sliding doors

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1464013/no-back-wall-for-new-home-theater

Paradigm S8
Paradigm C5
Paradigm ADP3
McIntosh MC8207
Integra 80.3
Oppo BDP-103

50/50 Music/Movies

I was considering dual Paradigm Sub 12's, but the more I read, the more I think I can do better for the money. Would dual SVS SB13-Ultra's be a better option and would they work well with my setup? I had considered S6/C3/ADP1 config since my room is kind of small, but I want the low end of the S8 for 2 channel listening.

Thanks for any thoughts.

If the primary use is going to be movies then go with the SVS and save the money. If you are going to listen to mostly high fidelity music then go with the Pdigm.
post #29186 of 30092
Quote:
If the primary use is going to be movies then go with the SVS and save the money. If you are going to listen to mostly high fidelity music then go with the Pdigm.

May I ask why? I would say 50/50. I love all sound, 2 channel, vinyl, 5.1 audio, movies, I listen to it all. I know that the paradigm isn't going to disappoint me, and with the PBK I'll be able to get them zoned in. But everyone raves about the SVS.
post #29187 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsteak View Post


May I ask why? I would say 50/50. I love all sound, 2 channel, vinyl, 5.1 audio, movies, I listen to it all. I know that the paradigm isn't going to disappoint me, and with the PBK I'll be able to get them zoned in. But everyone raves about the SVS.

For music you need a sub that has a fast response and a good punch, for movies you need a sub that has a good rumble.
post #29188 of 30092
Here is the difference. They are both equally good for sound quality if set up well with EQ. The SVS uses a bigger woofer, a more powerful amp and is inside a bigger box. The SVS is going to play louder, no doubt about it. No denying physics here.

So the first question is how loud do you want to play? If you really listen to things very loud the SVS is the obvious choice.

The next question is do you have any flexibility in where you can place your subs and seating? If you do not have any flexibility in placement than get the SVS and use an auto EQ system like Audyssey or something that EQ the subwoofers. The bass will be what it is. EQ can only do so such and can not correct for poor placements, and it may even make it worse. It won't take much of a search to find people that prefer their system without EQ compared to with it.

So why would one choose the Paradigm. First it is no slouch, it might not have as much output as the SVS but it is not wimpy either. Second and most important is PBK. You connect up PBK to your computer and sub and take measurements. You then move your subs and/or seating and repeat taking measurements until you find the best spots. Then you use the EQ built into the subs once you found the best placements. Voila, well integrated subs. The PBK system is easy to use and you don't have to get a lot of other measurement equipment nor spend a lot of time learning about how to use the software and which type of test tone is best, etc.

If you have measurement equipment and the knowledge or patience to learn it than the SVS is the better choice. Hey why not go for more output even if you don't need it. I'm pretty sure you can do the same thing with the Anthem receiver's ARC system and I think the Pro version of Audyssey. I think they both let you see the before measurements so you can move stuff and remeasure before you EQ. If you have a receiver/ processor that can do that you may not need PBK.

You have to decide which parameters are most important to you: output, sound quality, ease of use, other equipment needed, etc. Neither is a bad choice.
post #29189 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsteak View Post


May I ask why? I would say 50/50. I love all sound, 2 channel, vinyl, 5.1 audio, movies, I listen to it all. I know that the paradigm isn't going to disappoint me, and with the PBK I'll be able to get them zoned in. But everyone raves about the SVS.

Check the Rythmik line of subwoofers. They use an active servo design for accuracy.
They can play loud ,fast and deep. I own one and it performs better than my Paradigm
Subs (DSP-3200,ultra cube 10) with PBK . I use an Anthem MRX to equalize the sub.
post #29190 of 30092
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsteak View Post


May I ask why? I would say 50/50. I love all sound, 2 channel, vinyl, 5.1 audio, movies, I listen to it all. I know that the paradigm isn't going to disappoint me, and with the PBK I'll be able to get them zoned in. But everyone raves about the SVS.
Then you really should check out Rythmik.

Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshoppers View Post

Check the Rythmik line of subwoofers. They use an active servo design for accuracy.
They can play loud ,fast and deep. I own one and it performs better than my Paradigm
Subs (DSP-3200,ultra cube 10) with PBK . I use an Anthem MRX to equalize the sub.
+1 cool.gif
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