Paradigm Owners Thread - Page 324

When I heard Dipoles at my dealer they were on the rear wall directly behind the seating position and it still sounded good to me. I might just be an idiot I guess.

Goonstopher:

No, you're not an idiot. I actually felt the same way when I put my ADP's on the rear wall behind my listening area. I felt it gave me more of a sense of envelopment during movies, however with music recordings, both DVD and CD, it was a little too spread out, but it was still good enough for me.

Paradigms instructions actually state to place surrounds on the rear walls and that's what confused me in the beginning. I wanted to put a pair of ADP's on the sides and a pair on the rear wall, but most everyone here on this forum said that directing firing speakers on the rear wall would be the best bet.

I'm not completely convinced. I could go either way on this, but I still think that having side ADPs and rear ADPs would sound very nice in a home theater environment.

I am making speaker stands for mine so I can play with the angle and positioning (and because I dont have a free wall).

goonstopher:

What height are you thinking about to put those speakers if you use the stands?

About 38 Inches or so. My center has its tweeter perfectly at my ear level which is about 35 inches.

I use dipoles on my rear wall but my couch is also against the rear wall, so for me it was a no brainer over directs. They work fine when they are used for what they were made for.

Thanks Yosh,not sure if they have any deals on the last years cc690's if they still have them.
I'll give Gary a call next week and see what he recommends.

An old original pair of Atoms are my side surrounds and maybe a replacement in the form of Studio Adp's may also be in the works.

I felt guilty when my Studio 100's were eq'd for a crossover of 80hz to let the SVS pb13u take over!

This is precisely what I found as well (and my wife, too). The midrange clarity is better, especially in 2-channel listening. It's debatable whether the difference is noticeable in a 7.1 setup for movies, though. So as to whether the additional cost is worth it, IMO it comes down to the amount of 2-channel listening that you do. I listen to a decent amount of 2-channel now, but once they move into a dedicated HT, it will be much less often. If I started from scratch in a dedicated HT, I'd probably go with 40s all around, but that particular opinion is not based on extensive listening either.

goonstopher and JimmyDaves,

I need a serious upgrade to my surrounds, and have been researching this for a while now. I think I need a good listening session to compare the two types (dipole/direct). I used to think the ADPs were a no-brainer, especially once the 590s came out with a similar design to the Sig ADPs (mono woofer).

But I've read many logical arguments against dipoles for the sides, and especially rears, since then:

- For dipoles/bipoles, what you hear from them actually comes from the direction of the wall to which the drivers are firing. That means the sides will sound like they're coming from the rear (and a negligible amount from the front since that mostly gets washed out from the fronts and typically additional distance), whereas the rears sound like they're coming from the sides.

- Dipoles work as intended only when the user sits in the "null zone" (neither driver is firing toward the listener). For those with multiple rows of seating, the sound is very much different for each row. The typical recommendation in the dedicated HT builders forum is to optimize one row when using dipoles, and the other row suffers. My current thought is if it's a dedicated HT, it would likely be large enough that you could use wide-dispersion directs and get a better result.

- For rear dipoles (especially 7.1), a given listener will typically be in the null zone for only one of the speakers. Thus a dipole / dispersed sound is coming from one of them, but a more direct (yet "angled") sound is coming from the other. I think most would agree that "directs" have a particular sound, and dipoles have a particular sound, and different people prefer one or the other, and the room is of course a factor, as well. I'm not so sure there are many that would prefer a mixture of the two!

- Probably the most significant argument I've seen against dipoles comes from their history. They originally were intended for use when there were no discrete surround channels, and they were trying to "create" a 5.1 mix using Dolby Pro Logic from a stereo signal. That was quite the benefit, having dispersed sound in the surrounds that seemed distinct from the fronts. The reason it worked is that there was no need to ensure sounds were coming from a specific location in the room, since that data wasn't available. It would come from either the left or right side (generally), but there was no way for Pro Logic to know whether it was "mostly behind you, but toward the right", or "directly to the right of you". With discrete 7.1 now available, the specificity is there, which dipole completely muddies by its very design. So it's not that dipole is a poor design (like an original high quality SDTV).. just that there is much better source material that the dipoles won't be able to accurately reproduce, whereas directs will (like a modern HDTV now).

As I said, ultimately a listening session is necessary. As is an evaluation of your room (or a soon to be future room, in my case) is also important; as WaTaGuMp mentioned, if your listening positions are against the back wall, etc, directs may seem too overpowering to one particular location.

I spent above my budget to get the ADP's over the studio 20's and have returned TOO many things to me dealer who has been VERY fair so basically I need them to workout well in my room really really badly.

If you're not happy, or have to jump through too many hoops to make them work right, by all means... take them back. That's what the dealer is there for. Not to sell you things you don't need, or can't use.

see if your builder will allow you to run the conduit. Old milwaukee hawg hole saw, pvc pipe and some fire sealant for the holes created and you should be within code nationally and be able to pull whatever you want in the future. if he says no would doubt how legit of builder he is. it is not rocket science. I am on house number five and second one with this builder and am doing all low voltage myself. Have over 2 miles to pull so far on my plan.
Any reputable builder should be able to give you local code and allow you to do it yourself. Will make future upgrades a breeze. Otherwise make sure they don't staple the wire to the studs if you are thinking of pulling new wire in future.

Anyway, won't hurt to ask and wouldn't take longer than an afternoon to accomplish.

Of course I have. Hence the question. How bad do I really have it now?
He didn't test the Paradigm line and therefore I was looking for anyone's opinion who had actually listened to them either in comparison or separately. For my new theater room I will be filling about 6600 cubic feet and was considering 2 Conquests, 4 from the av123 line or a couple svs. So if anyone has any input, I would be interested in comparisons or how your sub(s) are performing in similar environments.

Not allowed to do anything myself. No wire runs or anything. Been there tried that. Would be much cheaper, lol. They don't allow any outside contractors or anything on their homes. Says so in the contract. They will do almost anything asked, but it cost $$. If I could run stuff myself, I'd have cat5 in all the rooms plus more. Oh well, it is what it is. The builder is ranked high whenever I look them up, always good things. Ranked high on JD Power as well. They just don't want any liability from anything, they can't cover the house if they didn't put it there, which I understand...just sucks

our second home was with a national builder but they did allow certain subs in that did the alarms and some custom sound . I was able to deal directly with them to just do the prewires. One thing i have learned is that most things in life ARE negotiable. Just a thought.

If you build in the future however, I have found that there is a misconception that true custom homes are more expensive than those by national builders. I must say that that is not true. Just need to find a great custom builder. Even so, with my case, I am running the wires to avoid that $$$ per drop cost.

One more thought is that the sheetrockers often cover your prewires. It might be good to have then run them back and forth between the studs like a web to make it easy tofind once you punch for your speakers if you are doing in wall or ceiling speakers. If you are using outlets then no problem. Trust me it is not fun to try to find a loose wire in the ceiling through an 8 inch hole.

best of luck.

Hi. I am new to this thread and was wondering of anyone would recommend a Denon AVR 3808ci for powering studio 100's v4, pair of ADP 590's, cc-690 and a servo15 v2. Just thought you guys would know. Thanks. Already have the speakers.

It'll do just fine and has pre-outs for using and external amp later down the line if you wish to go that direction...

Has anyone wall mounted the S1 Sigs for the rears?

Looking to upgrade my Cinema 330's....

I was at my local Minneapolis dealer and they had 20% off all v.4 Studio speakers. Only had the floor model of the cc-590 v.4 left and wouldn't budge from the flat 20% off...said new in the box was 20% and the floor model that was used he couldn't do any better....so I walked and I'm pretty erked that they wouldn't come down anymore on the floor model of the speaker being replaced.

So anyway, after thinking about it...I think I'm going to go for upgrading all three fronts.....so with the CC-590...also get the Studio 40v.4 for left and right.

I've also heard of some dealers taking pre-orders for studio v.5 for the discounted v.4 prices too. I guess in that case I could do the 20.v5 and the cc-590 v.5

Without talking specific prices on here...if anyone knows any dealers or individuals that might want a sale, that has v.4 Studio gear to clear out,....or doing the discounted v.5 prices....please PM me...I'm ready to buy and giving up on my local dealer....or I guess if anyone has a sales person at Stereoland in Eden Prairie, MN that will deal....the one I talked to did NOT.

Yeah, Stereoland is not flexible in their prices. I got my front three from them - not much choice as they're the only local dealer. Typically they'll only be 15% below MSRP new, so 20% is only because they're clearing them out. If those prices are showstoppers for you, you may want to look at some used ones.

You folks in "fly over" country really get screwed compared to the coasts and Florida.

Paradigm's dealer cost is 60% plus shipping.

That being said. Tell that yokel, those units will sit on his floor as he continues to pay dealer freight and carry costs until he sells them. Ask him his shipping cost and then say your will give 15% over invoice plus shipping and local taxes to take them away now.

Because, ultimately, he will have to sell them, never at a loss ... but less then he would like. This is business... tell him good press will follow, or it could be bad press... which in this economy... no one can afford.

Be firm but factual.

Those of your who know me by my posts, I am a retired Salon owner which sold Paradigm of nearly 20 years and among their first and largest dealers in the New York area.

How do you hand $1.2k worth of speakers on the wall???? are you mad?

I have contracted with Dr. Horton In Pradera development in Colorado.

They too said " oh no we can't do that, or that not even that... But give us a $100 and we will check the possibilities. I wanted my Kitchen to have soft closing cabinets and doors, as well no mullions between the cabinet doors allowing full width access to the upper shelves as well as full width roll out trays for pots and pans on the lower levels.

I called the manufacturer of the brand of cabinets (Merrilot) they were installing , and spoke with the rep. who was handling DR Horton in Colorado and guess what... for a mere $6k I got 32 running feet of cabinets upper & lower with everything I wanted.

I wanted a 10ft basement rafters, so I could plan my own home theater and a listening room... "can't do", you won't a have a walkout , just a garden view..... Great! works for me!!!! Guess what?????
Garden view is 1 ft short of a walkout! go Figure

I then asked them to run 4" PVC through the studs and rafters for my speaker and cat 6 cabling.....OH NO! We can't do that! I called the architect of DR Horton Pradaera and told him what I planned and how many times in the future I would be re=running cabling.. What would it cost to redraw plans specific to my house..=($500) and a $50 filing fee. Guess what??? I also had them throw on a 400 amp service for future possibilities with breakout boxes of (2x)100 amp each for the audio and home theater.

Throw it on the bill.

Custom and Tract builders are full of crap... money talks and BS walks.

You really have to stand your ground and most important ... do not represent yourself in these dealings!!! Hire a Buyers representative(local real estate agent)!.. They get paid by the builder!!!!!!!!

I've had much better experiences with Stereoland than you did, if you send me a PM with the name of who you talked with I can let you know who I deal with there. Don't want to use people's names in the thread.

gino-my thought was the speaker would set on some type of platform, similar to a floor stand. the difference is the platform would attach to the wall. i'm not speaking of drilling holes in the speaker if this is your thought. sorry if i posted poorly. you've never encountered a situation where there wasn't adequate space for the rear listening position? example, a family room that opens to a kitchen, so there is no rear wall. i would think this is a common challenge for ht setup in modern homes. no?
thanks-mike

My theater build is nearing completion and I am contemplating upgrading my speakers to a better line of Paradigms. I only watch movies - action, drama etc, not really into listening to music in the HT. My room is 14.5x19.5, double drywall, acoustic treatments on first reflections and several other places.

I currently have:

4 Paradigm Atom back/surround speakers
2 Paradigm Monitor 7 Fronts
1 Paradigm cc-190 center
1 Paradigm pdr sub
Denon AVR2808CI

My question is, would it be worth it to upgrade to say the studio series for the fronts and the center? If so what models? And would I need a more powerful amp? And if I do need a more powerful amp, can I still use the 2808 for anything? And would the atoms still be ok for the surrounds?

Thanks,
Shawn

Yes, but you go should listen Studio vs. Monitor on your own it may not be worth it to you. Studio 100 L,R and CC690. more powerful amp cant hurt.

Thanks I was thinking more along the lines of the studio 40's or so. Too small? Another reason Im thinking of upgrading is because they will be very close to the front wall (actually in recessed cavities). I know that's not the best, but we're doing it for aesthetics. Anyway, the monitor 7's are rear ported and I don't think the studios are. So would that help alleviate some of the problems I'm going to have with the being so close to the wall issue?

Mike:

Paradigm makes an "on wall" speaker called the W5. Apparently there is a W5 speaker for a center and one made for mains. I know that the W5 is a Signature line, but I don't know anything else about them. I've tried to find reviews on them and have posted here a couple of times asking for information on these new speakers and I can't find any reviews and no one has told me anything about them here on this thread. But these are an option if you are wanting to mount speakers on the wall! Jimmy