The "Official" Denon AVR-4806 Thread - Page 6

[quote=sergiohm]

I did manage to hookup one HDMI and a DVI device and use the switching. It all went well, but I do have a couple of questions:

2) When I change the volume on the 4806 it does not show up on the screen if the device (or function as it is called in the manual) is connected via component or HDMI. Only devices connected through Composite and S-VHS show up. Isn't that a bug?
QUOTE]

The digital inputs only show Menus and the OSD display. The control input confirmation doesn't display. This is probably a good compromise, as I don't want my picture down rezzing to 480I every time I hit the volume control, but don't mind it for setup or OSD display.



Allen

You can find a .CCF file with all of the Denon discrete codes for the 4806 at RemoteCentral.com. I converted them to a .PCF file, and renamed the functions from "function 224" to the real function name like "Power On". Shoot me a message and I will send you my .PCF file that you can back convert to a .CCF.

Cam Man,
good luck with the pronto at remotecentral.com let us know how it goes for you programming the pronto.

Venezolano,
no not yet, but if i hear about i'll definitely post it here.

Sergiohm,
put your XM antenna on the window sill facing south and you should get excellent reception. the 4806 will tell what the reception quality is. Do be careful with the xm info being displayed on screen on your tv. it does not go away after a period of time, so watch for burn in on the screen.

joe

The phase problem tamed at last !!!
Well let's get back to the beginning.
Getting the Denon 4806 Auto Speaker Setup to work well was quite a chore! It took me 2 days and my wife said I was going beserk listening to the receiver emitting the "woosh-woosh" sounds
First of all I recommend reading the excellent article about the Denon 5805 on audioholics. Lots of info about Audyssey EQ and its quirks.

Second this is what I learned:

- Find a "hot spot" for the mic to be set up. And it is most likely not going to be a real listening position. Mine was not even fully "equidistant" of the 5 speakers (am not considering the back surround because that is almost impossible to be equidistant). The trick for me was to get the mic closer to the front speakers otherwise the EQ would insist on labeling my front speakers "Small" and placing a higher crossover for them than for the surround speakers!!! Which is very odd because my front speakers go lower than the Surrounds; it maybe to the fact that the Fronts are Martin Logans electrostatic (the back surrounds are as well but they use a different technology than the Fronts - they do not require an AC cord for example). Now the challenge is that if you get too close you will get "false" readings, easy to spot though, in my case it boosted too much all the speaker levels (including the subwoofer).

- Phase: this is somewhat of a mystery still. First, kuddos for the EQ for getting it right on the front speakers. It told me they were out-of-phase although the cables were wired correctly. I then unplugged one of the cables (a lot of work believe me, I have about 12 devices and a plethora of cables on the back of the entertainment center - it is a nightmare to take one cable out!) and to my surprise the cables (AudioQuest but assembled by a dealer) were inverting the polarity!!! That dealer is going to get a nasty phone call from me
Now the center speaker (another Martin Logan) is still a mystery. I pulled out the cable and rechecked a thousand times and it is wired correctly. Still the EQ reported they were out-of-phase, following the manual I decided to ignore it and all went fine. I'll take my AVIA out tonight and test to re-check the phase.

- EQ distance compensation: It was spot-on for all speakers except for the Center which was off by 1 feet or less. It may have to do with the fact that due to some constraints, the center speaker is sitting on top of the entertainment center (I know bad placement but there was no place else to put it, the projector screen when down would cover the speaker which is even worse - ok I could buy another screen but where is the money?).

Now what is next ? The HDMI seemed to not be passing black as it should. Investigation under way. I also plan to test whether this receiver can go head to head with a Krell stereo amplifier. I did some preliminary listening (but true before the EQ got sorted out) and although the sound from the 4806 was nice the Krell (which puts out 2x200W at 8 ohms doubling to 2x400W at 4 ohms) had more headroom. It is very noticeable on classical music, when the orchestra goes so does the Krell, the Denon does not increase in the same proportion.

And a final advice, getting the EQ right is a must. When it was wrong the sound was not good at all, bass bloating from the subwoofer and some background noise. And I did not take any chances and used a tripod. It is $20 at RadioShack and you can use with your camera as well

Sergiohm,

it is alot harder work than i think we all anticipated dont you think? in the
end if it all works and sounds great, i suppose thats what count right? i'm
not so sure. i am at this point seriously thinking separates.

keep us posted on your trials and tribulations

joe

Hard work ???

Didn't you mean to say "it's a lot of fun setting up a new system and once you get it right it sure sounds great".

I'm sure that's what he meant!

I'm thinking of getting the 4806 for my 7.1 HT setup with NHT T6/M6 and L5s at the rear. The 4806 is rated at 140 watts per channel but the M6 recommendation is for 200 watts. The room is 20' by 17'. Should I look to put the 3 front speakers on a separate amp? Is anyone running Denon and NHT?

thanks....!

pcarey,

100 watts is the same as 120 watts and almost the same as 140 watts. Do you know that for a 3db increment you have to double the power?

Read the specifications. Minimum 15W- Maximum 250W. With a sensitivity of 86db/W/m, you will have a spl of 106 db!!!! You think that will need more power?

The issue you must chek is the current output and damping factor, but those speakers don't like specially hard.

cheers

Juan

Thanks all fine and dandy Juan, If your sitting one meter away from the loudspeakers. I have a feeling that pcarey is not that close in a room that size. So you can take at least 10-12db out of that equation. You will find out real quick you should be looking at an external amp (think 250+) with those speakers if you want to get anywhere near reference level.

Tom, I will probably be 12' away on the 1st row and 17' on the second. Can I mix and match so use an external amp for the front 3 and the Denon for the rears? Any suggestions on a good amp for this purpose? Also on the T6 system NHT provide an amp for the sub and also a device to manage cross over/gain etc for the sub(X1) - will this work with the EQ or will I need to fix the settings prior to EQ?

thaks again

Piers

Use the Denon for the rears, not much going on back there anyway. As far as integrating the subs and EQ, get it in your room 1st and then start tweaking. Lots of good Three channel amps out there, I'm personally using the Monster MPA 3350SS. They can be found online south of $1500 and it's a KILLER amp!

I need help, and you all are so advanced I'm lost. I have never been into the audio thing ( it was my X's) The system is around 8 years old, The system got hit by lighting, it came in on the cable line, and I didn't have any coax protection. So about half the system fried. I lost my sony 53" xbr, (looking at the Sony KDFE50A10) lost Denon AV2500,(looking at Denon 4806. I lost a Sony AX 401 amp and a Sony FM/Am toner.
I have Klipsch 2 centers 2 subs and 2 side and 2 rear speakers. What didn't get fired was the Adcom GFA 5300, the Russond SDB6 EZ, DVD, VHS and disk player. I drive two set of speakers on the patio, gameroom., master, office and garage. Will the Denon run all of this? I have had so many suggestion from a Rotel RSx1056, Rotel RX1052 and a Marant SR5500 and many others. I love movies, music but I know I don't have a great ear. This is alot of money to dish out but I want to do the best I can with my budget.
Thanks so much,
Leslee

Hey all you happy 4806 owners out there.

I've been reading avsforum for months now - my first post ever. I just unboxed and hooked up my 4806 this evening.

It looks as if this thread has died unfortunately?

I have noticed the HF harshness reported by quite a few. Cam Man mentioned a possible firmware upgrade for the 4806.

Any word on this?

I haven't checked on this in a while. Maybe it's time.

This is a link to the Denon download site , I saw nothing there.
Can you describe what HF harshness you listen ? Probably what CD you are listening and so on ? Also have you applied the Audsyssey EQ ? Or flat ?
Take care

Another update. First the "black" problem when using HDMI was solved by changing HDMI Out Setup to Color Space[RGB] and RGB Mode Setup to [Enhanced]. Don't ask me why, I just know that the blacks were much more present and natural this way.

HDMI Switching is working fine but I did have one problem. The Satellite is connected using an DVI-HDMI cable (the DVI connection on the receiver is already taken by a DVD player). I set the Satellite (DBS in the Denon receiver) to HDMI-2. But note that the Satellite is also connected via component because my TV is an older model and has no digital connections only the projector. So, everything was working fine, I could watch the Satellite fine on the TV. At night I turned on the projector and everything was fine. In the morning I turned on the TV (projector was off) and surprise: no image! I had to go back to Setup and unassing the DBS from the HDMI so the image could come back. This looks like a bug to me and it only happens with the Satellite. The DVD is also connected in this manner (that is both through HDMI and component) and works fine. Does anyone know what is going on? I'll try some further investigation.

Sound wise things are fine although some preliminary audition indicates to me that to listen to Stereo it is better to use Direct if you have a good CD player (that is connected via analogue). Now if you want to use the receiver to listen to Stereo material (CDs) I recommend using Dolby PLIIx. The sound opens up considerably and the soundstage is really big. Comparing the Denon to the Krell (the Krell is the KAV-400xi) is sort of unfair since the Krell is more expensive considering it does not offer multi-channel, HDMI switching, etc. But anyway, the sound is darker through the Krell and the power reserve (200Wx8ohms) really tells specially in classical music, I also find the sound through the Krell less fatiguing. Now the Denon with the Audyssey EQ brings a "cleaner" sound, the room correction is certainly benefitial.

For the analogue folks, I tested the phono connection and it sounded very good, I was surprised the Denon even supports MC which is unusual in a receiver.

Now to the disappointment of the week, the headphone socket does not carry a lot of power. I hooked up my trusted Senheiser 600 and had to put the volume almost to the max! Is that a problem or a WAD (Working as Designed)? For listening to stereo is really disappointing. It is not a big deal for me because I rarely listen through headphones anymore but it may be an issue for some.

Quick update and warning. I had a short power outage (3-4 minutes at most). I turned on the receiver and all the settings (EQ, digital inputs assignment, etc.) had been lost!!! I was surprised. Should this happen?

Sergiohm-

Yeah, I finally figured out where the Denon firmware updates are hidden on their web page - thanks for the link.

I ran through the auto cal and then applied Audessy EQ and it seemed to produce the harshness expressed by Abell2218 (while watching a movie):

"I guess one thing he has already leaked is that it will 'fix' the omnidirectionality of the microphone (I know it is software not hardware...) so you don't have to point it at the speakers to try and get accurate measurements. Should also help with one issue I have noticed on mine: it tends to 'overcorrect' the high end a bit too hot (boosting the two high bands on my front speakers +6 = introducing some harshness to the sound )"

I'll need to rerun the Auto setup again and try out pointing the mic directly at the speakers to see if that changes the outcome. I also discovered that after putting the 4806 in my rack, I had inadvertently knocked my sub level control knob all the way low - I didn't discover this until the end of the movie I was watching to test things out. I just thought the LFE track sucked the whole time . . .

I've only had about 2 precious hours with my new toy so I'm sure I have many more secrets to yet discover.

Cam Man -
Previously you posted:
"We're all kind of struggling/experimenting with that. If you go to speaker configuration menu and change the setting to small, then go to crossover settings, advanced, (last menu item), you may notice that the crossover is set to something less than 80 (maybe 60Hz as are my Klipsch KL-650s). Then go to subwoofer set up and check to see it is set to LFE/THX. Then you will have a meaningful set up where the mains will not be duplicating the subs in a phase non-coherent manner (which is the case if you set the sub to LFE+Main and the speaker left at large). The Audyssey green light will change to red because you have changed something that it chose, but its calculations and EQ will still be in effect, and you will be more accurately reproducing the original recording/mix (presuming that is your goal)."

Have you found this approach still applies best or have you discovered anything different? So if I just change my speakers to small (they are definitely not full range speakers and I would hate to hear them pretend to be) and make sure that my sub is set at LFE/THX, it will assure no overlapping between my speakers and sub?

Thanks in advance.

I'll try out my Sen. 600's tonight and let you know if I get the same results.

I would think not. I'll be hooking up my older Denon 5700 tonight (replaced with the 4806 last night). I'm pretty sure it should keep those settings - the 5700 has been sitting unplugged overnight, so that should be a good test - if the many-year-old 5700 is OK, I would think the 4806 should be able to handle power outages. Have you seen anything in the manual about this?

A power outage also may have created a surge in the line as well, so it may not be unusual for it to lose the settings under such conditions. That is somewhat mentioned on page 86 of the manual, although they do not say specifically that a power surge will do that, they do say it may possibly lock up or "otherwise cause mis-operation". But as far as is it supposed to retain settings if left unplugged, yes it should as they also mention on the same page, that the 4806 has a "approximately" 1 week backup memory to store settings. So it should hold all your settings for at least a few days if unplugged normally and not due to a abnormal power outage/surge situation.

"I ran through the auto cal and then applied Audessy EQ and it seemed to produce the harshness..."

What is your listening distance to the mains?

"Have you found this approach still applies best or have you discovered anything different?"

Yep, this is very close to an typical THX scenario (only at 60Hz in my case). This will ensure that the LFE and mains will splice rather than overlap and sum...or in some cases, electrically cancel due to phase anomolies in the signal as can happen if large and LFE+Mains are chosen. But this is true for all controllers out there, not just the 4806. It is one of those peculiar issues of translation from one medium and environment to another. In a professional mix, the LFE works out to 120Hz...a decidedly bad thing in the home theater since the sub may well be in a location that would distract us from the screen. The main arrays in cinemas are full range, but they don't have small room acoustic low frequency modes to deal with so they can blast away. Problem they have though is the LF portion of each main tower falls off dramatically below 40Hz anyway. So, fortunately more is being mixed into the LFE instead of overdriving LF info into the mains. When we try to bring that mix into our different accoustic environment, a number of things get "changed" to try to make it work. Much of what was done to help this is in the design of Dolby Digital home decoders, the rest by THX. Of course, as more and more good re-mixes for the home are released, a new animal is created that is good, as long as it is reasonably faithful in spirit to the original. Now, if we can just get a flag to tell us a DVD has a re-mix. Or, like The Lion King, inform us and give us a choice of it or the theatrical mix.

Cam Man -

Listening distance to mains is 15 feet at about 30 degrees off axis.

I'm finally starting to understand these concepts more intimately - thanks for your detailed responses and deep insight.

So, I manually set mains, center, and surrounds to small, made sure Sub setting was at LFE/THX. When I went into Crossover Settings, I found:

Mains - 40Hz
Center - 40Hz
Surrounds - 60 Hz
Sub/LFE - 80 Hz

This makes some sense to me since my mains and center can go deeper than my surrounds (is Audyssey really that sensitive/smart?), but it seems that with the 80Hz Sub setting that there is definitely going to be overlap. I do, however, recall you saying that these don't actually behave like crossover frequencies? I still do not understand this - I will look for that comment in the thread and read it again . . .

My 4806 is connected to a Panny ae700 projo via HDMI. I was puzzled by the lack of GUI display via the HDMI until I read the 4806 manual (what, me?). When activated, the OSD is output at 480i (only) via all of the video outputs on the 4806. This can cause a switching delay in the video if you are watching anything with a rez above 480i and activate the OSD. And the OSD will only appear superimposed on a program if it is 480i. So if you are watching a DVD at 480p or above, the screen will switch from the program to the OSD (bummer). In my case, the ae700's HDMI input will NOT accept a 480i rez at all, only 480p an up. So when I activated the OSD, my Panny went completely blank. I have since run addtional S-Video cables from my video sources to the 4806 and then to the Panny so that when I am watching standard TV (480i), I can use the OSD. If I want to see the OSD while watching a DVD or HDTV, then I have to switch both the 4806's and the Panny's inputs to S-Video. Since the 4806 has so many video inputs, I run the S-Video out of the DVD to (say) the 4806's VCR-2 S-Video input. That way, I can simply switch the input device rather than go into the menu and change the conversion settings. I rename the VCR-2 device to "DVD OSD"

i'm in heated debate with myself now, 5805 or 4806?
i have two subs co-located in a corner. they are both connected to my BK ref.50 one sub out through a Y connector. my question right now is how are two subs handled by the 4806 and its EQ software? would my setup be perfect or would it cause issues with the EQ software. i know the 5805 has more than one subout.

thanks

I tried a "Y" cable on the 4806 with two subs and the results were not good. There has been some discussion about using more than one sub but I temporarily gave up on it because one sub is enough for my room.

The two subs should act as one big one. No need to adjust them separately. You only need the more advanced sub management of the 5805 if you have the subs spread around the room.

"You only need the more advanced sub management of the 5805 if you have the subs spread around the room."

This is correct . If your subs are not co-located you would be wise to go with the 5805. There is a way to do it with the 4806, but it requires more $ for a device to delay one sub and match their gains.

I'm luckier because my projector does accept 480i through HDMI, so I can see the Setup menu and the OSD (not superimposed on the image) but the volume change never shows up which is not good because when the projector is on, the receiver is behind the screen so I cannot read the receiver display at all.

When I apply a room EQ other than "OFF", the receiver stops sending a signal to my sub (or at least it gets really faint). I've tried different sources but it's not source related. The sub is working fine - it works when EQ set to OFF as mentioned above, and it works fine in auto cal. I have a party on Friday and I'm getting desperate.

I'm thinking I should reinitialize the whole receiver, but I can't figure that out either.

Thanks in advance.

Does the system show still show you have a sub? Have you just tried a new auto cal? That is what I would do first so that it has to go through a speaker detect. Let us know how that goes.