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HDCP seperate box ? - Page 2  

post #31 of 215
7/19/05 at 1:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z
Yes, but if the story that the key inside this unit is one shared with popular plasma TVs is true (and I honestly have no way of validating this), revoking the key for this device punishes a lot of TV buyers who were promised HDTV capability when they purchased their sets.
For an actual key revocation that is true. But as I said earlier, I think I could find a way to make the first HD-DVD player not work with this device, but work with most of those plasmas, if that was my job. Even if they do all share the same HDCP keys.

--Darin

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post #32 of 215
7/19/05 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Yes, but if the story that the key inside this unit is one shared with popular plasma TVs is true
Big If. And I agree with odyssey---first of all, we know that this isn't what happened; and second, if I'm wrong, then life will be rough for the owners of those plasmas---and they will have the plasma manufacturer to blame.

And no, it is not plausible that the chips were stripped from purchased plasmas and put into these boxes. Not at the price we're paying for these boxes.
post #33 of 215
7/19/05 at 2:35pm
Michael:

The boxes you are talking about did not have to strip chips from plasmas they where legimate chips with full authorization.
post #34 of 215
7/19/05 at 2:41pm
Yes, that's my contention too. This was intended to be a legitimate box, with the chips obtained in a legitimate manner, which makes it likely that the keys are unique.
post #35 of 215
7/19/05 at 2:57pm
Thinking about the situation with this specific box, maybe that is why the manufacturer was still able to get authorization, possibly the "powers to be" knew the boxes keys could be easily disabled if their actual use became contrary to their intended use.
post #36 of 215
7/19/05 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z
Yes, but if the story that the key inside this unit is one shared with popular plasma TVs is true (and I honestly have no way of validating this), revoking the key for this device punishes a lot of TV buyers who were promised HDTV capability when they purchased their sets.
And probably a series of lawsuits. :rolleyes:
post #37 of 215
7/19/05 at 4:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG
Just a few points, the device in question was not hacked, it was manufactured by a reputable company that screwed up a limited run and was given permission to sell them as is with the HDCP striped rather than destroy them, that is what I was told.
That proves the "conspiracy" theory that has been bothering me for a few years.

:)
post #38 of 215
7/19/05 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I don't work on anything with HDCP (I am an engineer on a small medical product), but just for the sake of discussion let's say that I was hired to work on the first HD-DVD player that has not been released yet and that my job was to make sure that this specific device wouldn't work with that HD-DVD player. Do you guys believe that I (or someone else) couldn't find a way to keep it from working? I'm not out to help these guys, so I won't give details here, but I'm pretty confident I could keep it from working with that as yet unreleased player. Some will probably say that I couldn't if it uses the same keys as some consumer displays since I would have to disable all of them with key revocation, but I don't think that would stop me. I think worst case is most likely that I would have to disable one type of consumer display that uses the same HDCP keys and allow the rest to work.

I understand why people think that once players are released some people will find ways around the copy protection, but I don't understand why people would assume that the guys building these players that haven't been released are so brain-dead that they can't figure out a way to keep these devices that people already own from working. Especially when there are some very bright minds working on this stuff. There are bright minds on both sides and that is why people are able to disable something after the other side has finalized and released something (which hasn't happened yet with HD-DVD and BluRay players). And the game hasn't really started at this point since there isn't much incentive for Hollywood to disable output to these devices given that all the source devices I know of with HDCP also have component outputs and upconverted material isn't important to protect any more than the native source. If HD-DVD and BluRay are limited to 480p analog output then that is the point at which keeping these HDCP breaking devices from working will matter to Hollywood.

I think people buying this device so they can use it for HD-DVD and BluRay should know that we aren't in the 4th quarter with the game over, we are in the 1st quarter and somebody found a way to get a lead over HDCP. It will not surprise me at all if this device ends up not working with HD-DVD and/or BluRay and people have to buy another (a different one) or get some other "solution".

--Darin
Just say for argument's sake that I was also "hired" to make sure that Hollywood doesn't do anything stupid.

A few hundred dollars is peanuts to many of us here, and if discussion on this is going to channel the bright minds to providing analog HD component/RGB output on those HD players (and hopefully, doing away with the ridiculously intrusive AASC), I'm willing to sacrifice my small investment on the 2 gadgets for the benefit of the World. Amen.

:D
post #39 of 215
7/19/05 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LJG
Just a few points, the device in question was not hacked, it was manufactured by a reputable company that screwed up a limited run and was given permission to sell them as is with the HDCP striped rather than destroy them, that is what I was told.

Lon
isn't each licensed product inspected for HDCP robustness (so it cannot be hacked) before the license is issued and the keys can be purchased?

I cannot imagine any company getting permission to sell product this way
post #40 of 215
7/19/05 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin
isn't each licensed product inspected for HDCP robustness (so it cannot be hacked) before the license is issued and the keys can be purchased?

I cannot imagine any company getting permission to sell product this way
Believe it or not, that is exactly what happened
post #41 of 215
7/19/05 at 5:50pm
In an earlier life I was a professional reverse engineer (hacker to you), I am still fairly talented but here in the states it is federal offense! Believe me, my company and I reversed EVERY single video and audio scrambling system in Europe and sold the solutions to millions of ever hungry users. Although it did cost the program suppliers new sets of smart cards etc. It never hurt the consumer and the percentage of the overall revenue generated by the program suppliers required to overcome the continuous attacks on their system is relatively small.

There is nothing more healthily, in my opinion, than a bit of hacking, it keeps everybody on their toes and gives those willing to gamble just a bit MORE!

Flame away!

Regards

Paul
post #42 of 215
7/19/05 at 5:56pm
Paul:

With all due respect nobody here is talking about stealing anything, all we want to do is view HD bought and paid for in full resolution, hacking smart cards indeed costs every honest consumer
post #43 of 215
7/19/05 at 6:06pm
"The DVI HDCP converts DVI/HMDI RGB or Component digital Video in analog RGBHV."

As you know this is not true digital but now a analog version. You have already lost some resolution as you move forward.
post #44 of 215
7/19/05 at 6:26pm
LJG,

Unfortunately any device that decodes a scrambled signal opens up the opportunity for unscrupulous individuals to copy and sell that product thereby depriving the supplier of revenue and future capital to develope more programming. Most on this forum and many others JUST want to watch at high resolution and interface hardware in a simple manner, any idea of copying and sale is not in our sights. It is NOT those that the encryption is aimed at, although it is they who must suffer.

In the early days of scrambling, encryption and hacking the business of selling product was relatively small compared to the "proffesional" organizations that now exsist. The current technology and level of technical skills that I come across these days now enables relatively low skilled individuals to "rip off" millions of dollars of product. The real worry to program providers in this day and age of digital transfer and processing is that a copy can be made that is INDISTIGUISHABLE from the original. In the "good old days" this was not the case and hacked product was almost always significantly inferior to the original.

This I cannot condone or support that is why I left the "trade". We are therefore going to be "saddled" with this problem for evermore. Wherever there is a challenge somebody will rise to it.

Regards

Paul
post #45 of 215
7/19/05 at 8:05pm
So can anyone tell me where I can buy this???
post #46 of 215
7/20/05 at 4:22am
Sheesh people, enough with the doomsaying.

Sure there is a chance the black box's keys might be revoked, but lets worry about that when it happens. Getting all worked up over something that may or may not happen isn't constructive. If you don't believe they are a good investment, then don't buy one. It's not like there's some black ops team being sent over from Korea to make sure everyone without a HDCP display buys one or faces the consequences here. It's really not that big a deal.

For those complaining about the potential for copying stuff via HDMI/DVI, please be relistic. DVDs are copied all the time, and I've never heard of one instance where it was done via SDI or DVI. Pirates haven't used real-time copying since the VHS days. Direct copies on a computer is where it's going to happen, so devices like this are completely irrelivent to the war on piracy.
post #47 of 215
7/20/05 at 4:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled
For those complaining about the potential for copying stuff via HDMI/DVI, please be relistic. DVDs are copied all the time, and I've never heard of one instance where it was done via SDI or DVI. Pirates haven't used real-time copying since the VHS days. Direct copies on a computer is where it's going to happen, so devices like this are completely irrelivent to the war on piracy.
That's been my thought ever since I first heard of HDCP. Why go to such lengths to stop real-time-copying when it's barely, if ever, practiced nowadays?

Personally I'm one of those who bought a pretty expensive set (4000 USD) just before HDCP became the defacto standard. And I for one surely hope that HDCP gets a simple and cheap bypass/crack soon.
post #48 of 215
7/20/05 at 6:09am
Keeping within the original title of this thread here is an interesting post on the subject...
post #49 of 215
7/20/05 at 6:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carled
Sheesh people, enough with the doomsaying.

Sure there is a chance the black box's keys might be revoked, but lets worry about that when it happens. Getting all worked up over something that may or may not happen isn't constructive. If you don't believe they are a good investment, then don't buy one. It's not like there's some black ops team being sent over from Korea to make sure everyone without a HDCP display buys one or faces the consequences here. It's really not that big a deal.
I think people considering spending money on something like this should be told about likely outcomes. You seem to disagree. No problem, but no reason for you to get worked up over people getting informed before making a purchase either.

--Darin
post #50 of 215
7/20/05 at 6:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2
I think people considering spending money on something like this should be told about likely outcomes. You seem to disagree. No problem, but no reason for you to get worked up over people getting informed before making a purchase either.
Sure, exchanging information about things so people can make an informed choice is what forums are all about. The issue is with the "likely outcomes" you speak of. None of us can see the future, and that is just one possibility of many.

What I could see a lot of in this thread was people getting indignant over something that might possibly happen to a product they don't own, which makes no sense. Logically weighing up the cost/benefits (and it is a very expensive box considering how little it does) is a lot more constructive than conducting a witch hunt.
post #51 of 215
7/20/05 at 7:28am
Pardon my ignorance but aren't there direct view CRTs as well as RP CRTs still being sold that are HDCP compliant ?

Art
post #52 of 215
7/20/05 at 7:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn
Pardon my ignorance but aren't there direct view CRTs as well as RP CRTs still being sold that are HDCP compliant ?

Art
Yes! I own one of them right now, the Sony KD34xbr960. ;)

Although production on Direct View's is in steep decline across the boards, the answer to your question is definitely YES.
post #53 of 215
7/20/05 at 7:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Big If. And I agree with odyssey---first of all, we know that this isn't what happened; and second, if I'm wrong, then life will be rough for the owners of those plasmas---and they will have the plasma manufacturer to blame.
How would the plasma manufacturer in any way be to blame? They bought a properly licensed chip, installed it in their product for legitimate uses, and later someone else who happened to be using the same chip did something that caused the key to be revoked.

Quote:
And no, it is not plausible that the chips were stripped from purchased plasmas and put into these boxes. Not at the price we're paying for these boxes.
I think you're misreading me. I'm not suggesting that. What I was told (and again, I can't verify this) is that the encryption key was properly licensed, but happened to be the same key used in plasma displays.

However, this is really no different than if some pirate simply bought a plasma and stripped out the key to build his own decryption device. The outcome is the same. If the key is revoked, the plasma owners are punished for something they had nothing to do with.
post #54 of 215
7/20/05 at 8:54am
Has anyone had a chance to look at the quality of the "hacked" picture versus the original DVI / HDMI feed into a screen? If so, please post your views. Chilidg (accurately) says that the output from this little black box will be analog with some resolution lost (?), but has anyone noticed any difference?

Just wondering.....
post #55 of 215
7/20/05 at 9:43am
Josh, your second response obviates much of what I had to say. If the keys happen to be the same, but both were obtained legitimately, that poses a problem. I admit I'm skeptical about this though. Why the HDCP consortium would sabotage its effectiveness in this manner, I don't know. I wonder if the term "legitimate" is being defined rather loosely. That is, did the DTrovision/Spatz box obtain their chips with a valid license or on the grey market?

Anyway, even if we grant that both the plasma and the box were fully legitimate and licensed ventures, it will still be possible to prevent future display devices from working with the aforementioned box, and still work just fine with the plasma. Darin shared his thoughts with me privately about how this would work; and while I don't feel at liberty to share them here, I can confirm that they seem technically sound.
post #56 of 215
7/20/05 at 9:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant
Josh, your second response obviates much of what I had to say. If the keys happen to be the same, but both were obtained legitimately, that poses a problem. I admit I'm skeptical about this though. Why the HDCP consortium would sabotage its effectiveness in this manner, I don't know. I wonder if the term "legitimate" is being defined rather loosely. That is, did the DTrovision/Spatz box obtain their chips with a valid license or on the grey market?
My guess, when they applied for the key the language used in their product description may have been vague, and somone on the licensing committee didn't look at it too closely.

Quote:
Anyway, even if we grant that both the plasma and the box were fully legitimate and licensed ventures, it will still be possible to prevent future display devices from working with the aforementioned box, and still work just fine with the plasma. Darin shared his thoughts with me privately about how this would work; and while I don't feel at liberty to share them here, I can confirm that they seem technically sound.
Maybe. I guess we're just screwed in any case.

It seems to me that the whole process of encryption keys is inherently flawed unless each specific device (not the entire product line) is issued its own unique key. If the HD-DVD discs are watermarked, a pirated copy could be traced back to a specific machine, which could then be disabled. Revoking an entire product line used for legitimate purposes by the majority of owners due to the actions of one individual is just not tenable.
post #57 of 215
7/20/05 at 10:11am
You're conflating watermarking and encryption. Watermarking needs to be machine-specific to be effective, because it helps content providers to track down copyright offenders.

Encryption keys, on the other hand, aren't really effective if they are specific to an individual device. They need to be issued on a product-by-product or company-by-company basis. That's because a crack on a specific device can presumably be easily reproduced across all devices in that category.

The contract that a company enters to use a technology like HDCP or AACS would insure that the company is responsible for losses that occur if their key is lost "into the wild" due to negligent controls on their part. This can mean that 1) the company assumes liability if their products are disabled through key revocation; or 2) a monetary sum to be paid to the licensing body (or both).

On the other hand, if a company's key is lost through no fault or negligence of their own, then in my opinion the licensing body should have no recourse whatsoever to recover damages from the company or revoke their key.
post #58 of 215
7/20/05 at 10:49am
Quote:
What I could see a lot of in this thread was people getting indignant over something that might possibly happen to a product they don't own, which makes no sense. Logically weighing up the cost/benefits (and it is a very expensive box considering how little it does) is a lot more constructive than conducting a witch hunt.
I actually own three of these. What I am indignant about are the large number of public posts about something that should have been kept much more discreet. What is now very likely to happen, and not just one of many outcomes, but an almost inevitable one, is a direct result of the publicity. The way these are described on Spatz’s site doesn’t help either.

As far as how these chips wound up in a device that should have HDCP protection on it’s output but doesn’t, I don’t know, but my guess is that they were not licensed for this use. They were licensed for something else like a plasma display and were either sold on the black market or just used by the licensee to make these boxes. I don’t believe that the manufacturer was given permission to sell these.
post #59 of 215
7/20/05 at 11:11am
I'm not at all sure that anyone will bother to revoke such a low quantity unit. I wouldn't be surprised if this was intentionally overlooked in order to provide CRT projector owners with some way around HDCP issues, as they are a vocal bunch (and rightfuly so).
post #60 of 215
7/20/05 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by oferlaor
I'm not at all sure that anyone will bother to revoke such a low quantity unit. I wouldn't be surprised if this was intentionally overlooked in order to provide CRT projector owners with some way around HDCP issues, as they are a vocal bunch (and rightfuly so).
It’s not the volume as much as the precedent. Do you really think that they will allow a situation that implies that they have all these rules, but won’t enforce them? In any case, as I mentioned, there are people in a position to know who have hinted that there will be a response.
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