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XBR960: A truly AMAZING ISF experience! - Page 3  

post #61 of 146
I have a little deeper question, why am I expected to spend another couple of hundred dollars when I have already shelled out $2000 - $5000? Why shouldn't I expected a properly calibrated set out of the box?
post #62 of 146
You are not expected to do anything. If seeing things the way the Director did is important to you or if you feel you want to "go the extra mile" in search of video perfection an ISF calibration is the way to go. If you are happy with your out of the box experiance than by all means forgo the calibration.
post #63 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newport_Racer
I have a little deeper question, why am I expected to spend another couple of hundred dollars when I have already shelled out $2000 - $5000? Why shouldn't I expected a properly calibrated set out of the box?
Because they pump thousands of these things out everyday. The time it would take to properly calibrate them would take too much time and cost a lot money for the company making them. Anyway, the majority of people that buy TVs don't know what calibration is and what it could mean. Unless the TV doesn't turn on or show a picture, they're generally happy with the TV they purchased. Things like proper grayscale, convergence, and geometry mean nothing to them.
post #64 of 146
Greetings

Because the "MARKETING" of a TV set has nothing to do with presenting accurate images. It has everything to do with making TVs that sell.

If my market research showed me that I would sell more units if I made my images XX bright and this blue ... then you better believe I would do that to the TV.

A properly set up TV will not sell on the showroom floor stacked up next to torch mode sets yielding super blue images. Given this little truism, why would I spend more money on the production line to more finely tune the product? Add to that, you can't really do much of that on the line because you have no idea what environment the TV is going into and what equipment is being hooked up to it. Calibration is equipment specific ...

The only way you could do this is to send someone into everyone's home 30 days after purchase ... hmmm wonder what that costs? Typical $75/hr ... 3 hours including travel time ... and you have to train all the techs to do this and get them testing equipment and make sure the equipment is recertified ... and then retrain the people every year ...

So suddenly you are adding a $300 - $400 premium onto all the TV's you sell.

So when you go buy the TV ... do you want to pay this premium or would you rather save the money?

99.5% of the people would rather save their money ... so why make 100% of the people pay for a service that 0.5% of the people care about? It's all fine and dandy to sit back and say they should already include this in the cost of the TV ... but if you were making the TV's ... you wouldn't do it either.

The closest brand that comes properly calibrated out there are Runco products and you do pay the premium for that product ... (and you know what ... they still recommend that you get the set properly ISF'd anyway because they understand that the set must be fine tuned with the end users equipment.)

Regards
post #65 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newport_Racer
I have a little deeper question, why am I expected to spend another couple of hundred dollars when I have already shelled out $2000 - $5000? Why shouldn't I expected a properly calibrated set out of the box?
Everyone has given valid reasons.

There a few other issues, electronic components usually change a little and settle-in in the beginning. I like to see 100 hours on a new TV before I calibrate it. Even the color of your room and the amount of light will affect your calibration.

In general:
Time is money and on the assembly line, the last tweak from the factory default downloaded settings is done very quickly, in room and lighting conditions that are guaranteed to be nothing like your room. That person on the assembly line is just doing his/her job, he/she is not a calibrator trying to get optimal performance out of your TV in your home. Just like the workers that assembled the engine in your last/next new car, they are not the same as the NASCAR or F-1 mechanics doing engine assembly. And for that new car, did or will the dealer call and ask if everything was OK, or was there something they could do to make it a little better? It’s pretty much up to you to determine if something is wrong, then take to the dealer for warranty work, the same goes for your TV. BTW the manufacturer (most all manufacturers) has an acceptable plus/minus tolerance range for being “within specification†that is quite liberal. White balance is usually set with factory voltage specifications, not a color analyzer looking at the screen output.

You just bought a new TV and to no surprise, it works, right? You push the button, a picture appears and it is in color, it may even be HD. Success, but really it’s only for the manufacturer and dealer who sold it to you. What are the chances they are going to contact you to see how it looks or if it is working properly.

If you can’t see details in dark scenes, who’s problem? There is a user control to adjust it. Movies are based upon white being 6500K, why do TVs have three or more color temperature settings. And why does the XBR960 have service menu color correction adjustments for each scan-rate for each input?

Why are the TVs not calibrated from the factory? Simple, retail competition and “buyer beware.†Retail sales are after the dollar volume and if a competitors TV is 20% cheaper, which one will sell more? TVs will probably never be calibrated from the factory because there will always be at least one manufacturer that will skip that step for a lower MSRP, and the price wars begin again.

Anyway, TVs OOB are not right and if you want the most in viewing performance, consider a calibration.
post #66 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeeJay1952
If seeing things the way the Director did is important to you . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenC
Movies are based upon white being 6500K
This is the one claim I don't get. I believe that 6500K *is* the correct white point (with some tolerance) for a CRT-TV, as it is the "design" white of the SMPTE phosphor definitions. And it appears perfectly white, no problem, neither cool nor warm to me. Further, television production monitors are calibrated to this standard, so one can argue that you are duplicating the production values with a 6500K display at home. Fine. That's *video* production. I am pleased with *my* CRT-TV being calibrated to a 6500K white point, no question, and I am completely satisfied with the way DVD movies are displayed.

But where is there a theater with a projection system that even tries for 6500K, rather than the slightly-green 5600K average of the typical projectors? If the director of a movie has an "intent," and we know they do by using specific color balances to set mood, then how can one reconcile the 6500K claim of video perfection with the greenish 5600K average of the filtered xenon-arc illuminator of the typical big-system theater? Is this what the director intended? Where is there any credible statement of director's "intent"? On the other hand, if the director/producer takes into account the typical projector's color, then he would balance the movie to include that bias, no? Then the only way to observe the "intent" is to mimic this approx 5600K white point at home.

I wish the argument were turned more toward the experience of the television viewer, what is perceived as white, and how to maximize the rendering of color within that color space -- rather than invoking this mystical "director's intent." It seems obvious that if the "intent" is a dark film, or one suffused with golden light, brownish tones with reduced saturation, cold tones of cyan shadows and bluish highlights -- whatever color scheme is used to convey a mood, then that not-so-subtle scheme is relayed to the viewer anyway, unless the TV is 9300K in a brilliant halogen-lighted room. I should think that you ISF folks should be making a more-credible arguement based on color subtlety and rendering than invoking terms like "director's intent," "correct" display, the "right" color, etc. Doesn't this strike you as a bit snobbish?

To summarize: Is 6500K a cinema standard, too, no matter that almost no theater even tries to achieve it? Where is this written? (Seriously. Where can one find out more?)
post #67 of 146
Greetings

Don't go generalizing ISF guys please. :)

D6500 is for the video world. It has nothing to do with the theatrical experience. It has nothing to do with real life.

You wouldn't believe how many people try to describe d65 as real life color rendition ... or get it all confused with the theatrical presentation.

First off ... getting your set properly calibrated has nothing to do with real life and certainly nothing to do with the theatrical experience.

The bulb in the projector is around 5400 ...+/- not that different than when we were projecting black and white films on the screen.

D65 is the TV standard. There is nothing magical about it. If 9500 was the standard, I'd be advocating that.

imagine this ... sometime after the theatrical film run ... or before it ... the director or the DP or some transfer expert sits in a studio and does the transfer to DVD. During this process they may make some decisions on color to tweak it one way or another since the video realm has fewer colors than film. The film makers decide that they want their film to look a certain way on DVD ... and they make these changes on studio monitors properly set up to the D65 spec.

Ditto for the director sitting in the production trailer at a football game looking at the monitors and making a decision that the football field looks too blue ...

That's all. It is production intent ... based on the limitiations of the video realm.

BTW ... we usually set up a 5400 setting for old B/W films ...

Regards
post #68 of 146
I could be wrong about this, but I thought the film that went out to the theaters was processed for the color of the lamp so it would achieve white at D65. The new digital cinemas are a different story.

As for the film, it too gets processed based upon what the director wants out of the particular piece of film. I have a customer who develops film for the movie industry. In fact he developed the film for the latest Star Wars. There were many tweaks to the developing process to achieve the desired effects.

A camera crew would normally shoot a gray card and or white card for White Balance at the beginning of recording and/or during a "football game" so the camera output can be adjusted for postproduction or broadcast white balance, luminance, chroma, chroma phase etc.

This site has some interesting information -- http://www.digitalcinemasociety.org/...th+the+DVX-100
post #69 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
D6500 is for the video world. It has nothing to do with the theatrical experience. It has nothing to do with real life.
Well, yes, this was my point -- except for the real-life part. In real life, the whitest objects, neither cool nor warm, and uncontaminated by pink or green, are front-lighted clouds floating in a blue sky at mid-day. (Yeah, I know -- you've read this from me before.) Guess what that color temp turns out to be? Just about exactly 6500K! So the calibration of a video display to 6500 means that what was intended to be white on the picture is likely perfectly white -- a noble goal, no?

So, to be clear, I have no beef with anyone who proposes 6500K as a good video white-standard, since this can be argued on several solid grounds.

The depressing information about typical theaters comes from this excellent reference previously posted by GlenC:

http://www.etconsult.com/papers/papers.htm

. . . although a couple of these references are really PowerPoint presentations, and you have to read between the lines to infer what the details are. They are all interesting.

When I show modern, immaculately-produced DVDs on my set, the whites appear completely natural where that seems to be the intent, and discretionary color tints and casts are plainly visible. Hence, it seems the substantive "director's intent" is being shown to me. But, like you said, who know what other forces have intervened in the making of a DVD? Further, do I care?

What is far more important, I think, is that color reproduction is at its best on these sets when whites are clean-white, the grayscale rendering is accurate and linear, and black level has been tweaked for the program -- even on quite-ordinary broadcast material, more so when care has been taken in video production. That's the strongest case for calibration (of the above-mentioned parameters) in my book, whether DYI or professional.
post #70 of 146
Greetings

Kentech, actually it's a cloudy day at noon ... not a sunny day. Take out an analyzer and point it to the light on a cloudy day and you get d6500 ish ... :)

Regards
post #71 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
actually it's a cloudy day at noon ... not a sunny day.
A cloudy day varies in color temp. Are the clouds moist? -- too yellow. Altostratus? -- too blue. Is it a marine overcast? -- way too blue. Is it fog? -- way, WAY too blue. A dense, front-lighted mid-day cloud integrates both sunlight and skylight and comes much closer to 6500K. I fortunately live in a climate (as do you) where these can be easily observed and used -- well, most of the year.

Finally, for me, this is now empirical. I have used such clouds to calibrate my white point. I have since acquired a spectrophotometer in the form of a very good computer-monitor calibrator. I have now measured the white point on-screen by several methods, including comparison with a precisely calibrated small monitor. My TV turned out to be almost exactly 6500K, with no pink or green contamination. I have made a slight correction. My enjoyment of the TV has not changed, as these small deviations from 6500K have never been significant during viewing, the eye's adaptation ability completely compensating. (That said, 200-500K diferences *look* warmer or cooler to me if I pay attention, in appropriately low room lighting. I'm referring to smaller deviations.)

Numerous online sources discussing color temperature show the usual tables of natural objects and their alleged "natural" color temps. Overcast is always listed as greater than 6500K, so it's not precise enough, although one could use it, then tweak the TV a bit warmer. This jives with my current experience.
post #72 of 146
Greetings

So which city and which environment is this 6500 mark taken in? Kinda differs depending on where in the world you might be at noon ... and at what time of year? :)

Regards
post #73 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael TLV
So which city and which environment is this 6500 mark taken in? Kinda differs depending on where in the world you might be at noon ... and at what time of year?
Sure. Portland, OR, mid-spring thru mid-July, middle of day, looking north. Sun high in sky, in clean air. (Such clouds are rare just now, but they'll return!)

If the sun is *not* high in the sky, it passes thru more of the Earth's atmosphere, warming the light. How much? Does it matter? Mid-day variations for many locales are not significant. There must be huge areas of the civilized landmasses where a reasonable color temp can be observed satisfactorily at mid-day. However, if you're intent on doing this in December in Anchorage, you're, um, not paying attention to the principles here!

The whole idea is to say: There are a few nearly-universal color-temp standards, publicly available by walking outside, that could get you close to 6500K, close enough to enjoy the results, at no cost. Certainly one could overcome the usual 7000-9500K setup typical of most sets out of the box. If none of this appeals to you and DIY is a foreign or frightful concept, one can always spend $$ and hire someone to do it for you. That's always an option, right? I work as a computer/system consultant for small businesses. Folks pay *me* to do what they can't or aren't willing to do themselves. I get it. But for my video hobby I have the resources and education to take the DIY route with pleasure, and that's what I have documented in these threads for others with my bent. No one is coerced to follow!
post #74 of 146
I have tried twice to e-mail him to set up a calibration when he swings out to the east coast. Does anyone know how to contact him?

TIA,

Rich
post #75 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorman148
I have tried twice to e-mail him to set up a calibration when he swings out to the east coast. Does anyone know how to contact him?

TIA,

Rich
The email is the best way, or fill out the form on the site. It's not a binding contract.
post #76 of 146
I did both a week ago. I am thinking he is either on vacation or out of town and can't get online.

I want to have my set calibrated and I will wait for him IF he is coming out this way in October like his post said.

I'll wait a while longer to see if he answers my mail.

Thanks,

Rich
post #77 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorman148
I did both a week ago. I am thinking he is either on vacation or out of town and can't get online.

I want to have my set calibrated and I will wait for him IF he is coming out this way in October like his post said.

I'll wait a while longer to see if he answers my mail.

Thanks,

Rich
Chad is currently in Chicago doing a tour. I just has him ISF my set :D . He does not have access to e-mail. He will be back around the 18th or 19th.
post #78 of 146
How does it look now, be honest though.
post #79 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrocHunter
How does it look now, be honest though.
I have a Toshiba 65HDX82 which is a couple of years old. The focus is now incredible. The grey scale was out of wack before calibration and now its dead on. I looks like I have a brand new TV. The colors pop and HD seem even more 3-D. Geometry was also fixed. Over all it was worth the money.
post #80 of 146
I've noticed in the plasma forum that a number of members say a plasma should be calibrated after at least 100 hours. What is the rule of thumb for a tube TV like the Sony 34 960 XBR? I read in this thread that the tech spent a lot of time on magnets to address convergence. Is this typical for this model and would most techs be so conscientious? A salesperson suggested that once you place this 'heavy' TV in its optimal location, it is very unlikely it will be moved from that spot. If calibration should occur after a break-in period, moving the TV could be problematic.
post #81 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_in_PA
I've noticed in the plasma forum that a number of members say a plasma should be calibrated after at least 100 hours. What is the rule of thumb for a tube TV like the Sony 34 960 XBR? I read in this thread that the tech spent a lot of time on magnets to address convergence. Is this typical for this model and would most techs be so conscientious?
Every TV has its own personality and no, you can't always count on every tech to be this conscientious, but if you go with well known or well recommended people, like Chad, or LionAV guys or whomever...you have no worries. :)

Quote:
A salesperson suggested that once you place this 'heavy' TV in its optimal location, it is very unlikely it will be moved from that spot. If calibration should occur after a break-in period, moving the TV could be problematic.
To be fair, I tried to give a good 100 hours or so before I called in Chad. That's just so you can make sure you don't have any defects or bugs or that you have to return or exchange the set for any reason.

I asked Chad about moving the TV AFTER he had done his work. I may have some new carpeting put in which means moving. Basically, the answer is: If the TV is moved with care, like any piece of electronics, it shouldn't damage or undo any work that was done. It's all common sense here.

If you don't try to play basketball with the TV, you really shouldn't have any problems.
post #82 of 146
Thanks. As for moving the TV, one concern I have is if it was placed in a tight or otherwise awkward location with limited access; it would have to be moved (by the owner and one or three buddies) in order for the tech to access the back.

On finding the right ISF tech, one of the businesses near where I live (outside of Philly) is listed on the ISF website as having all the 'right' certifications for a complete calibration, but is likey to be very price prohibitive should they spend anywhere near the time Chad spent. I base this assumption on a time not long ago when I ordered a replacement remote control for a TV I'd purchased from them 10 years earlier. When I asked if they would help me program the new remote, they told me it would cost $150-$200 for 30 - 45 minutes of their tech's time. These guys know they can get top dollar around here because people are apparently willing to (over)pay. Needless to say, I think I have to look elsewhere to find a qualified tech whose price is more in line with my sensibilities or hope calibration is unnecessary.
post #83 of 146
Can anyone recommend a good ISF person in the Orange County/LA area? If I just use the ISF search site it finds me a large number of people and I have no clue who would be better than others. So rather than just randomly picking a name off a list it would be nice to get a recommendation.
post #84 of 146
I don't get ppl who say it's a waste of money.. You spend 4 grand on a 60inch TV, but won't spent 400.00 more to get the best picture possible..It's ppl like that who still use composite cables when watching movies on their HDTV.. :rolleyes:
post #85 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
Every TV has its own personality and no, you can't always count on every tech to be this conscientious, but if you go with well known or well recommended people, like Chad, or LionAV guys or whomever...you have no worries. :)



To be fair, I tried to give a good 100 hours or so before I called in Chad. That's just so you can make sure you don't have any defects or bugs or that you have to return or exchange the set for any reason.

I asked Chad about moving the TV AFTER he had done his work. I may have some new carpeting put in which means moving. Basically, the answer is: If the TV is moved with care, like any piece of electronics, it shouldn't damage or undo any work that was done. It's all common sense here.

If you don't try to play basketball with the TV, you really shouldn't have any problems.
After reading your posts, I emailed Chad to inquire about possibly setting up a ISF Calibration during his upcoming trip to Florida. Chad emailed me back and I thought his prices were very reasonable. I'm seriously considering it.

What I wanted to know is that I think my PQ is pretty darn good right now on my 40XBR, and I know you had thought the same in regards to your 960XBR. What were the comparable differences and improvements in PQ after you had the TV ISF'd?
post #86 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by cajieboy
What I wanted to know is that I think my PQ is pretty darn good right now on my 40XBR, and I know you had thought the same in regards to your 960XBR. What were the comparable differences and improvements in PQ after you had the TV ISF'd?
The difference is in the detail. You see more of the little stuff. Everything is sharper and clearer which for me brings out more of the little details.
post #87 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_in_PA
On finding the right ISF tech, one of the businesses near where I live (outside of Philly) is listed on the ISF website as having all the 'right' certifications for a complete calibration, but is likey to be very price prohibitive should they spend anywhere near the time Chad spent. I base this assumption on a time not long ago when I ordered a replacement remote control for a TV I'd purchased from them 10 years earlier. When I asked if they would help me program the new remote, they told me it would cost $150-$200 for 30 - 45 minutes of their tech's time. These guys know they can get top dollar around here because people are apparently willing to (over)pay. Needless to say, I think I have to look elsewhere to find a qualified tech whose price is more in line with my sensibilities or hope calibration is unnecessary.
Go to the local HDTV forum and ask if anyone has had their set calibrated. The Philly forum is pretty active so I'm sure someone has had it done. If it was a job well done you'll get a recommendation.

I did a quick search of ISF in the Philadelphia thread of the Local HDTV forum and came up with 7 hits. A couple of names came up.
post #88 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnGZ28
The difference is in the detail. You see more of the little stuff. Everything is sharper and clearer which for me brings out more of the little details.
To me, this alone would be worth the price of a professional calibration. I went back to Q's first posts and re-read everything, which pretty much answers all concerns. If I can get on Chad's Florida Appt. List, and I can be home (I travel a lot) during this time, I definitely want to give ISF a try. Maybe Chad could even show me a few tricks for my Sony AV3000 Universal Remote.
post #89 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by poorman148
I did both a week ago. I am thinking he is either on vacation or out of town and can't get online.

I want to have my set calibrated and I will wait for him IF he is coming out this way in October like his post said.

I'll wait a while longer to see if he answers my mail.

Thanks,

Rich
Where is this post people have referred to about Chad posting possible locations for calibrations?

I e-mailed Chad after referring to Q's post, even though he said he concentrated on states mostly around Ohio. I'm in Massachusetts (Boston).

Much to my surprise, he said he was tentatively coming out this way for another client, and we have set up an Oct/Nov timeframe for this.

If this calibration goes as well as Q's did, I will be very pleased. I just hope to have my new stand and possible subwoofer by then (he is also doing an audio calibration in addition to an ISF calibration).
post #90 of 146
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tennberg
Where is this post people have referred to about Chad posting possible locations for calibrations?
Huh? It might have been me. I was simply referring to a conversation he and I had. All of information is on his site and I've made it clear to let HIM and his site speak for itself, first and foremost.

Apparently, he's trying to expand his base a bit, hence he's coming to you. I've told people that have PM'd me to go ahead and fill out the form on his site. It's not a binding contract and you may just be pleasantly surprised. I won't speak for him as to how far he's willing to travel.



Quote:

I e-mailed Chad after referring to Q's post, even though he said he concentrated on states mostly around Ohio. I'm in Massachusetts (Boston).

Much to my surprise, he said he was tentatively coming out this way for another client, and we have set up an Oct/Nov timeframe for this.

If this calibration goes as well as Q's did, I will be very pleased. I just hope to have my new stand and possible subwoofer by then (he is also doing an audio calibration in addition to an ISF calibration).
You will be VERY pleased.
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