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S-VHS Tape Input To 2005 Panny ES-10 VS 2005 Pio 531  

post #1 of 94
Thread Starter 
I am running this test and will have the results in this thread soon. I used an S-Vid cord output from my JVC S-VHS into the S-Vid inputs of both respective DVDR's. 2002 Tape is an originally recorded S-VHS Fuji EP tape but that is good. We will see which unit does better. I consider this a good test. Both units are factory default settings for this. That is THE only WAY to fairly test it. Otherwise you are saying one unit is more of a hassle than the other for the Average Joe.
post #2 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quick Update- If playback resolution while recording the S-VHS tape is any indication ---so far the 2005 ES-10 is looking far superior. The Proof of the Pudding though is how the burned disc plays back on the XP-50.
post #3 of 94
Thread Starter 
OK- The 2005 ES-10 Panny absoutely inputs SVHS Tapes better than the 2005 Pio 531. It was just a better video on the burned DVD-R disc when played back on the XP-50 -plain and simple. I would expect the same result on a VHS tape input as well. It is only logical. Now I must caveat this- Pio was good- it's just that the Panny ES-10 was noticibly better and superior. I can guarantee this. Can the 2005 HDD E50 Panny replicate the results?- I do not know- I do not have one.
post #4 of 94
I have also done a few VHS to DVD experiments and have found this:

JVC-S-VHS>{S-video)<Pan ES10=good results

JVC-S-VAS>{composite}<Pan ES10=excellent results

It appears that by using the S-Video in on the ES10 you bypass its internal "correction filters" that really seem to work well and create better copies than the originals.I had a 8 hr Stargate tape that i dubbed over at SP on the panny and it looks much better than i would have expected.

I am also using the composite from my DTIVO and the copies are true to the original signal on the HD.

I am very pleased with this machine after burning over 40 disc(first 25 TDK -R/15 Ty -R) in the last 3 weeks and having only one failed recording which turned out to be a finger print i had put on the disc prior to burning.
post #5 of 94
Well, I hope you are right about this so I don't end up wasting a lot of time testing the E10. I've got over 100 high quality S-VHS tapes I want to archive on DVD, so PQ is very important. I've burned a few DVDs on my 533HS with good results, but if the ES10 is that much better, then that's what I should be using. I'm keeping the 533HS no matter what because I also need the DV input. I'll stop by CC today and pick up an ES10 and do the comparison myself. If it looks as good as you say, then I will keep it just for archiving the S-VHS tapes.
post #6 of 94
I would like to see if the Pioneer's picture can be made to look as good or better than the Panny if all of the Pioneer's adjustments were used & exactly what those adjustments were.

That way we could tell the average Joe who isn't going to fool with adjustments to get the Panasonic but if the Pioneer with adjustments is better than the Panny then most people on this forum should buy the Pioneer & adjust it.

If the Pioneer can be setup once & left with the "Dubbing Adjustments" that should also be taken into account when considering which Recorder for the average Joe to buy.

Also I would like to see it tested with actual VHS tapes (Not just S-VHS tapes that the average person is not going to have) at SP & EP speeds & using Composite & S-Video Inputs because there may be a difference between them.

If the S-VHS VCR has a TBC in it or NR Circuits or any kind of Picture Controls they should all be turned "OFF" or set to "STANDARD" because let's face it the average person is not going to have a VCR that has those features in it.
post #7 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1313
I would like to see if the Pioneer's picture can be made to look as good or better than the Panny if all of the Pioneer's adjustments were used & exactly what those adjustments were.

That way we could tell the average Joe who isn't going to fool with adjustments to get the Panasonic but if the Pioneer with adjustments is better than the Panny then most people on this forum should buy the Pioneer & adjust it.

If the Pioneer can be setup once & left with the "Dubbing Adjustments" that should also be taken into account when considering which Recorder for the average Joe to buy.

Also I would like to see it tested with actual VHS tapes (Not just S-VHS tapes that the average person is not going to have) at SP & EP speeds & using Composite & S-Video Inputs because there may be a difference between them.

If the S-VHS VCR has a TBC in it or NR Circuits or any kind of Picture Controls they should all be turned "OFF" or set to "STANDARD" because let's face it the average person is not going to have a VCR that has those features in it.
Bill1313, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I don't buy into this notion that you've gotta test with the factory defaults. The only meaningful test would be to setup each recorder for the best possible results, since that's exactly what I and other folks in this forum would do if they owned these units.

I stopped by CC today, and they were out of the ES10, but expect the ES20 in the next couple of weeks. I've got a $50 gift card to use up, so I think I'll wait for that. I just hope it's worth all the trouble. The S-VHS recordings I made with the 533HS look very good on an 60" Sony XBR LCD projector TV. They're sharp yet clean, have naturally saturated, true colors, and zero pixelation. So I am very curious how the ES10 will improve upon this. One possibility would be the ES10 would produce over saturated, over sharpened images, which often looks better to some folks. I'll report my findings here.
post #8 of 94
Quote:
I stopped by CC today, and they were out of the ES10, but expect the ES20 in the next couple of weeks. I've got a $50 gift card to use up, so I think I'll wait for that.
From what I can tell the ES20 is a UK/European model only. Are you sure about this???

Also, note that if you get a non-HDD Panny recorder you can't transfer a DVD-RAM recording to a Panny HDD model and then subsequently high speed dub to DVD-R/+R/-RW. If you plant to only work in "video mode" vs. VR mode then this is a non-issue. If you need to edit your recordings however you would be better served by getting a HDD based Panasonic recorder.
post #9 of 94
Yes, What the heck is a USA Panasonic ES20 model & how much did CC say it would be selling for?

The 2005 USA DVD Recorder Catalog that Panasonic sent me only lists the ES-10, ES-30V, EH-50 & the E-500 as this years recorder line up.

But it would not surprise me if Panny did add some new models to the mix like something to replace the E-65 (Card Slots & TV Guide) & E-95 (Bigger HDD & A Digital Input) models.
post #10 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill1313
Yes, What the heck is a USA Panasonic ES20 model & how much did CC say it would be selling for?

The 2005 USA DVD Recorder Catalog that Panasonic sent me only lists the ES-10, ES-30V, EH-50 & the E-500 as this years recorder line up.

But it would not surprise me if Panny did add some new models to the mix like something to replace the E-65 (Card Slots & TV Guide) & E-95 (Bigger HDD & A Digital Input) models.
The guy at CC found the ES20 on his system as a pre-order, but there was no mention of specs, so he googled it and found it at J&R.

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4051229

J&R also shows it as pre-order. It has an EPG and DV input and is the same price as the ES10.
post #11 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari
From what I can tell the ES20 is a UK/European model only. Are you sure about this???

Also, note that if you get a non-HDD Panny recorder you can't transfer a DVD-RAM recording to a Panny HDD model and then subsequently high speed dub to DVD-R/+R/-RW. If you plant to only work in "video mode" vs. VR mode then this is a non-issue. If you need to edit your recordings however you would be better served by getting a HDD based Panasonic recorder.
Yes, this had occurred to me. I need to copy something to DVD-R in Video mode and see if I can add chapter marks. Anyone know if that does work? If it does, then I'll be satisfied.

What I really hope is HoustonGus is wrong and the ES20 is not noticeably better than the 533HS, and the ES20 will go back to CC.
post #12 of 94
Did anyone notice that the ES-20 at J&R has a "Freeview" Tuner in it & "RGB" Inputs & Outputs?

Sounds like a European model to me & I can't understand what CC would be doing with it?

I understand that in some of the English Mags. they were talking about Panasonic's upcoming models that were going to have "Freeview" Tuners in them incase you wanted to hold off instead of jumping on the European ES-10 when it first came out.

But maybe Panasonic is releasing a USA model with a digital input too?
post #13 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari
Also, note that if you get a non-HDD Panny recorder you can't transfer a DVD-RAM recording to a Panny HDD model and then subsequently high speed dub to DVD-R/+R/-RW. If you plant to only work in "video mode" vs. VR mode then this is a non-issue. If you need to edit your recordings however you would be better served by getting a HDD based Panasonic recorder.
Yeah, I guess the only reason to get the ES10 at this point would be to see how the PQ compares to 533HS when recording S-VHS tapes. Then back it goes. I'm not willing to purchase a second HDD recorder at this time, so if the Panasonic is really better, I'll just hold off on archiving the S-VHS collection for awhile longer.
post #14 of 94
Thread Starter 
I am going to test regular VHS on this same test. Should have results up on this thread in the next day or two.
post #15 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by probepro
Yes, this had occurred to me. I need to copy something to DVD-R in Video mode and see if I can add chapter marks. Anyone know if that does work? If it does, then I'll be satisfied.
On a non-HDD Panny (e.g., ES10) you can only add permanent chapter marks to a VR mode disc (i.e., DVD-RAM). Video mode discs will have auto 5 min chapters upon finalization. For Panny recorders, you can only retain custom chapter marks on video mode discs by first inserting them into the HDD copy prior to high speed dubbing to -R/+R/-RW in video mode. That's why I mentioned it in the first place.
post #16 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari
On a non-HDD Panny (e.g., ES10) you can only add permanent chapter marks to a VR mode disc (i.e., DVD-RAM). Video mode discs will have auto 5 min chapters upon finalization. For Panny recorders, you can only retain custom chapter marks on video mode discs by first inserting them into the HDD copy prior to high speed dubbing to -R/+R/-RW in video mode. That's why I mentioned it in the first place.
Yeah, 533HS is similar to the Panny, so keeping a HDD-less recorder won't work for me, but I still want to do the test to settle these claims about the Panny once and for all.
post #17 of 94
Thread Starter 
Ok I just finished dubbing a 2001 recorded VHS tape to both units. The VHS tape was a high grade Maxell Professional. The recording was at EP speed on the VHS tape. Even at EP it is a very good original recording. The settings on both DVDR units were factory default (out of the box). Dub record on both DVDRs was XP. The Panny ES10 dub was definitely better video quality than the Pioneer. It was crisper, sharper and to me had better color. The Pio was good ,it just was not as good as the Panny.
post #18 of 94
Good to know, now try adjusting the Pioneer's Picture Settings & see if it can make the picture better than the Panny.
post #19 of 94
Thread Starter 
Bill- I would like you or anyone else to specifically tell me exactly what to adjust to "make it better". Heard a lot of talk about this but no one has given specifics. I'll be glad to.
post #20 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
The settings on both DVDR units were factory default (out of the box). Dub record on both DVDRs was XP. The Panny ES10 dub was definitely better video quality than the Pioneer. It was crisper, sharper and to me had better color. The Pio was good ,it just was not as good as the Panny.
Of course the Panny was better. Come on HG, you know better. The Pioneers add digital processing to their out of the box, default settings, which look terrible. You have to adjust the recording video adjustment "&" the playback video adjustment to "MEMORY 1 or 2 or 3 to get a "neutral" setting. Pioneer's recorders are setup for the ignorant people who have poorly setup systems. This is the biggest problem about Pioneer Recorders but it's easily solved.

I've found the Pioneer recording to be clones of the original. Quality wise, you can't do better than a clone. You can process the crap out of it, but quality is measured by creating without adding material that wasn't there originally.

Even the Pioneer DVR-420H produced clone images on most material. It only had slight macroblocking on very hard, fast moving, flashing scenes. Other recorders had the exact same problem on these same scenes. The new models seem to have corrected that one flaw by now offering professional quality.

Have a good one.
post #21 of 94
Well I'm at Work not at the Pioneer, However there are many adjustments you can make, 2 types of noise reduction, Sharpen, Auto White AGC or manual where you can set White level, black level, IRE to 0 or 7.5. Gamma, Chroma , I forget the name but I used it to correct the color to where the fleshtones were normal not purpleish, And I seem to recall one other, However As I say I'm working from memory. As I recall three user configurable as well as several Presets for VCR, Tuner etc. So I can set a custom for each of the three line inputs. And as I recall it also you can adjust playback for the same settings to your TV. The edits are easy. Picking a Thumbnail and entering a title is easy. And I'm using a good JVC 9911 S-VHS through a TBC so I can record anything including Original tapes I bought. They come out pretty good for me. Using 8X media it seems to take about 10 minutes to burn and finalize, 16X media is signifigantly faster.

Cheers
post #22 of 94
Hey HoustonGuy , thanks for the work you've done with the ES10 and 531.

For Bill1313, Mike Up, and RogerT-- If you want the tests run your way get off your butts, get the players, and do it yourself. I'd like to see your results.
post #23 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by moxie1617
Hey HoustonGuy , thanks for the work you've done with the ES10 and 531.

For Bill1313, Mike Up, and RogerT-- If you want the tests run your way get off your butts, get the players, and do it yourself. I'd like to see your results.
Get off your @ss and do a search.
post #24 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Up
I've found the Pioneer recording to be clones of the original. Quality wise, you can't do better than a clone. You can process the crap out of it, but quality is measured by creating without adding material that wasn't there originally.
Exactly Mike UP. Based on the copies of S-VHS tapes I've made, I couldn't see how the ES10 could be "far superior", and I haven't been able to get my hands on an ES10 to do the same test HG did. And then it occurred to me, the best test is to compare the S-VHS tape with the DVD copy, and it's just like you said - they are clones. In fact, so much so, that I honestly make mistakes telling the original from the copy on a 60" LCD projector TV. Of course, I took the time to adjust the proc amp for the best results. There is absolutely no blotchiness as some have reported. The only difference I see in the copy is a wee bit more noise in the shadow areas, which is to expected from the final D/A conversion to the TV. A DirecTV copy was also very good, but not as impressive as the S-VHS copy, and I did have to spend more time tweaking the proc amp for this input to get it to look like the original. But you only have to calibrate it once, and you're all set. In some regards, the copies are actually more watchable than the originals, because you can adjust gamma, white and black levels, etc. before burning the copy.

The reason I was concerned about HG's test results is I have about 100 S-VHS tapes I want to archive to DVD, so I'm going to have to spend considerable time burning copies, and I want them to be as good as they can so I don' t have to redo them later. But what could be better than a clone?
post #25 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Bill- I would like you or anyone else to specifically tell me exactly what to adjust to "make it better". Heard a lot of talk about this but no one has given specifics. I'll be glad to.
HG, how can we tell you that? It's based on your equipment and source tapes, but it's easy to determine. What you may not realize is that you can adjust the proc amp in real-time and see how it will look once it's burned. The manual doesn't say this, but I believe when you monitor the VCR input from the output of the 533HS, an A/D conversion has taken place, but instead of being written to a DVD, it is sent as output to the TV. So, you are actually seeing what the final results would be before it is burned to the DVD. This has to be true, because there is absolutely no difference between the monitored images and the recorded images. This is a very powerful feature, because it means you can tailor the results with the proc amp before actually burning the copy. It also makes it easy to compare the original to the copy, since it can be done in real-time, which is how I can say with confidence that the copies are clones of the originals.
post #26 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by probepro
HG, how can we tell you that? It's based on your equipment and source tapes, but it's easy to determine. What you may not realize is that you can adjust the proc amp in real-time and see how it will look once it's burned. The manual doesn't say this, but I believe when you monitor the VCR input from the output of the 533HS, an A/D conversion has taken place, but instead of being written to a DVD, it is sent as output to the TV. So, you are actually seeing what the final results would be before it is written to the DVD. The has to be true, because there is absolutely no difference between the monitored images and the recorded images. This is a very powerful feature, because it means you can tailor the results with the proc amp before actually making the copy. It also make it easy to compare the original to the copy, since it can be done in real-time, which is how I can see with confidence that the copies are a clone of the originals.
This is an understatement. :) I copied an old hockey VHS tape and it looked a bit too bright. Thought maybe it was the tape but was sure it wasn't. Realized that you can actually do quite a bit of video setting on the 633 and thanks to someone here who put up details, I changed the black level setting and put on the white level and it made all the difference. You can SEE it on the TV and it is fantastic.

I don't know how much control the Toshiba has but as much as there is for editing, I hear it's not as much on the video end, most important for me and maybe a reason to keep after all. This is the reason why I bought it -- to copy my VHS tapes and be able to see on a TV, not my monitor, what they will really look like.
post #27 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote-MikeUp
"You have to adjust the recording video adjustment "&" the playback video adjustment to "MEMORY 1 or 2 or 3 to get a "neutral" setting"

Well -I will try this. However can you imagine Average Joe going through 3 memory settings trying to pick the best neutral?. We are getting pretty ridiculous here for the guy on the street. BTW you said "Pioneer's recorders are setup for the ignorant people who have poorly setup systems". I will take that as a compliment.
post #28 of 94
Out of the box the picture quality is OK. You don't have to have these refinements although they are nice, that is for sure. The memory settings don't seem to be 3 types of neutral but are 3 settings at neutral that you can adjust for different purposes such as memory1 every time you dub a VHS tape, memory2 every time you dub from RF input, etc.

Another knock against the pioneer is even though much of the remote and other functions are set up to use easily, the flow of mastering or creating discs is not simple and just linear like it is on the XS32. Then again, Pioneer separates where you do this by area and there is some method to their particular madness.
post #29 of 94
I don't own the Pioneer or the Panny or I would test them but if your going to do a "Complete Test" & not just a "Factory Settings Test" then you should use "ALL" the picture adjustments that are available on each recorder to see which one will produce the best picture in the end.

Just like you would'nt compare tv sets with just the factory settings you would judge them after both sets had been adjusted for the best picture & you should also do the same thing when comparing all video products.

But as it stands for my Average Joe Friends who will not be fooling around with any of the picture settings & want to dub a bunch of video tapes I would tell thm to buy the Panny.
post #30 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGuy
Quote-MikeUp
"You have to adjust the recording video adjustment "&" the playback video adjustment to "MEMORY 1 or 2 or 3 to get a "neutral" setting"

Well -I will try this. However can you imagine Average Joe going through 3 memory settings trying to pick the best neutral?. We are getting pretty ridiculous here for the guy on the street. BTW you said "Pioneer's recorders are setup for the ignorant people who have poorly setup systems". I will take that as a compliment.
The average joe guy in the street isn't reading this board. Why are you so concerned about what the average joe's recordings will look like? Don't you want to make the best possible recordings for yourself? If you have the ability to adjust the Pioneers and make better looking recordings, but aren't utilizing that ability, what's the point?
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