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SpyderTV Review - Page 3

post #61 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa View Post

Which version of the Spyder do you have? If you have the tripod mount, see if the pictures in the first post help you in how to use it. You will want a tripod, though!

It was shipped for 3 Weeks from Colorvision Switzerland. The Sensor- Information is SN: 00418788 Version: sw 3CL/ hw 3CL

The trippod mount will be shipped in the next weeks, but I have a tripod and can make a provisional attach.

Can you give me the Information, about my sw hw stand of the Spider. Is this "the better one"?

Regards Damdy
post #62 of 933
Thread Starter 
Sounds like the original Spyder2. However, I do not get mine unil next week, so if someone else has the full Spyder2PRO v2 package, they can post what the rev levels are.
post #63 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa View Post

Sounds like the original Spyder2. However, I do not get mine unil next week, so if someone else has the full Spyder2PRO v2 package, they can post what the rev levels are.

That is the same hw/sw version for my Spyder2PRO purchased three months ago.

Mark
post #64 of 933
Same for mine purchased a week ago...

Arno
post #65 of 933
Same HW/SW as my SpyderTV purchased this week, too.
post #66 of 933
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlipFlop View Post

Same HW/SW as my SpyderTV purchased this week, too.

If that's the same as the SpyderTV, then there may not be an obvious way to check to see which sensor you have.
post #67 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlipFlop View Post

Same HW/SW as my SpyderTV purchased this week, too.

FlipFlop,

Are you saying that you have the 3CL hardware/soft version for your spyderTV?
Well, if this is the case, then that means that I have the latest version of the sensor (same hw/sw revision) that came with the spyder2 pro studio.

If I understood correctly, ANY spydertv has the new sensor except for a few beta testers that got the old sensor...

Arno

Edit: Bill is too fast for me...
post #68 of 933
Thread Starter 
Arno - The two Spyders I have also said 3CL for both, and I was explicitly told I had the old hardware. I think that also explains the anomalies between the PRO and TV readings I was getting, since I was using the shipping software (e.g., it might have been expecting slightly different inputs).

Basically, I'll probably have to check with Colorvision to see how an end user can find out which sensor he or she has.
post #69 of 933
I was all excited for a second...

Does this mean that your spreadsheet model will have to be redone for the new sensor?

Arno

PS: Tonight I will be doing a bunch of calibration work. More to come...
post #70 of 933
Thread Starter 
Arno - The math stays the same with the spreadsheet model. The issue is whether the "raw" xyY data itself is accurate, and with my limited testing, the Spyder2 looks very usable. We'll have to see how much more accurate/precise the new unit is once I get it.

I do not expect CRT FP folks to get much more out of the new sensor, btw.

Later,
Bill
post #71 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa View Post

I do not expect CRT FP folks to get much more out of the new sensor, btw.

What I was hoping to hear...
Arno
post #72 of 933
Thread Starter 
Now if someone could convince the wife to let me have a CRT FP, then I could give it a real test!
post #73 of 933
Bill,
Austin is not so far from Houston...
Arno
post #74 of 933
This is is what SpyderTV reports:
Quote:


This product is licensed to Me

Serial Number: 6xxxxx-9xxxxx-1xxxx
SpyderTV Version: 1.1.104
Error Reporter Version: 1.00.0031
Resource Version: 1.00.0129
Resource 256 Version: 1.00.0116
Update Version: 1.00.0025
SpyderTV colorimeter Version: 4. 0. 0. 5
Serialization Version: 1. 3. 0. 1
SpyderTV Utility Version: 1.01.0008
Status Version: 1.00.0016

This is what Spyder2Pro 2.0 reports:
Quote:


SN: 0051xxxx
Version: sw 3CL/hw 3CL

I bought the SpyderTV, and the $90 Spyder2Pro software upgrade so I can do both TV and PC calibration. One interesting thing difference between the two programs: The Spyder2Pro 2.0 program requires that you remove the LCD filter from the sensor when calibrating CRTs. The SpyderTV program requires that you leave the LCD filter on when calibrating CRTs. Measuring the same white screen with each program, I get these results:
Spyder2Pro 2.0: (CRT w/o LCD filter) x=0.316 y=0.327 Y=79.6
SpyderTV: (CRT with LCD filter) x=0.312 y=0.325 Y=95.4
post #75 of 933
Thread Starter 
Interesting. The differences I got were even more severe when I pulled the light grate off the Spyder2 and used it with the SpyderTV software (remember: I was one of the early beta folks who just got a Spyder2 with the new shell).

Arno - The grocery store looks a little far with gas at $3/gallon!

Later,
Bill
post #76 of 933
Bill, given that the SpyderTV and Spyder2Pro are in the same ballpark price-wise, and according to the Colorvision site the Spyder2Pro can calibrate FPs, is there any reason to go with the SpyderTV over the Spyder2Pro?
post #77 of 933
Thread Starter 
Stanger - the nearest reason I can think of is to pull together a basic calibration faster than you can get with the PRO. That is, you probably get a better result faster with the TV than you do with either Avia/DVE or the PreCAL routine in the PRO. Also, I do not have a PDP to check how well the PRO handles calibrating Plasma displays. For FP connected to a HTPC, you are probably better off with the PRO. Where you have a bunch of displays that are not connected to PCs, then go for the TV. My guess is that the TV plus the PRO software upgrade will be +/- $30 as the PRO standalone within about four months.

One strategy: buy the TV a discounted as possible ($230 according to Froogle), and then try to get the "loyalty discount" (25% off) by buying direct from Colorvision (this may not work since, by definition, an upgrader already has the product; I am taking FlipFlop's experience to indicate that the PRO upgrade works with the TV as well as the base or Plus versions). I would be careful about buying the Spyder2PRO from internet discounters right now since you may not get the v2.0 meter. Be careful when purchasing the PRO - most deep discounters are probably pushing older stock.

Later,
Bill
post #78 of 933
Wouldn't the main reason to purchase the TV over the PRO is to calibrate all forms of TVs (CRT, plasmas, DLP, LCD) whereas the PRO calibrates PC monitors...
post #79 of 933
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursa View Post

Interesting. The differences I got were even more severe when I pulled the light grate off the Spyder2 and used it with the SpyderTV software

The SpyderTV readings I listed above were for the proper use of SpyderTV, reading the CRT with the LCD filter in place. If I take the LCD filter off, and make the same reading in SpyderTV I get results way out in right field (actually way out in foul territory )

Incorrect use of SpyderTV (CRT w/o LCD filter): x=0.475 y=0.311 Y=1116.7
Incorrect use of Spyder2Pro 2.0 (CRT with LCD filter): x=0.243 y=0.319 Y=8.5

My point was that the SpyderTV software obviously is calibrated to make ALL readings with the LCD filter in place, and you get garbage with it not in place. I didn't see any references in either the SpyderTV software or the help file about the LCD filter, other than the demonstration pictures all showed it in place. On the other hand, the Spyder2Pro software specifically instructs you to remove the filter when measuring a CRT. There was some difference, though, between the Spyder2Pro readings and the SpyderTV readings, but I don't know if this difference is significant.

I did email DataColor and was told I could use the Spyder2Pro software upgrade with the SpyderTV package. I did, and it works.
post #80 of 933
Thread Starter 
FlipFlop - Good to know! Did you get the "loyalty discount" when purchasing the upgrade or did you buy it retail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sknight1 View Post

Wouldn't the main reason to purchase the TV over the PRO is to calibrate all forms of TVs (CRT, plasmas, DLP, LCD) whereas the PRO calibrates PC monitors...

Scott - That line is, perhaps, somewhat blurry these days. I would agree with you in spirit, but I have seen way too many Windows error screens on the Plasma displays at airports for me to make too much of a TV vs. monitor distinction. In essence, a TV is really just a monitor with a tuner attached.

Later,
Bill
post #81 of 933
I have a question for you guys. I know it will be useful for me and hopefully for some others, as well. I've used the spyder2pro to calibrate a number of different televisions in the following manner. Use the colorimeter option from the tool menu, when it asks you to initialize, put the spyder on the display device showing an 100 ire field from dve and then initialize the spyder, then take readings with the 80 and 20 ire fields to adjust the bias/gains until the xy coordinates are correct. I've only done crts, so no need for the lcd filter for me. 2 questions--is this methodology correct? And, can I just do the same for my dlp projector? I would assume so, if I initialized using a bright white field displayed by that projector...
post #82 of 933
I have ordered v2.0 software for my Spyder2Pro. Like lewdog I have also calibrated my HS51 in pretty much the same way playing around with it over the months. We'll see how close it was/is with this new official FP software.
post #83 of 933
Thread Starter 
lewdog - this is a good start if you lack a mathematical model to really dial it in (it pretty much works regardless of what display type you are using). What you miss in this method is the ability to really maximize your contrast while maintaining proper color balance (e.g., white snow is really white, not bluish white). Embedded in contrast maximization is making sure your gamma is relatively flat and within parameters (e.g., 2.2 for HD).

Where this method will really help is with displays that are quite good direct from the factory (e.g., Epson projectors - at least my EMP-TW500, and reputedly InFocus HT projectors). For projectors that may be further out of whack, or that have weird gamma curves/color temperatures as their defaults, then you may want a more detailed view into what is happening.

2ntense - I would be curious as to whether the "secret sauce" in the SpyderTV sensor (Spyder2+ ?) might be specifically designed to handle displays like the HS51 that have dynamic irises. The Spyder2 was not bad with my Optoma, but it is a relatively bright and straight-forward DLP. The low light level of the HS51 may give you some really weird numbers if you aren't careful.

Later,
Bill
post #84 of 933
Hmm... What I've done is get greyscale for 20/80 ire and brightness/contrast the best they can be. I haven't done much with the gamma stuff because I've never taken much energy to understand it. So, I know the greyscale points are very close and the contrast/brightness is, according to dve, the best it can be. I don't understand how the mathematical modeling comes into this. Can you provide a basic overview of what the mathematical modeling's purpose is and how it's better than what I've done? I actually just don't even understand what you're doing. Thanks--always trying to learn.

PS Did greyscale and the new 2.0 version directs you to use the attachable filter for both lcd and dlp projectors. Originally, I used it without the baffle and the results were totally crazy, then went partway through the wizard and saw the instruction to attach it, which made it work out great.
post #85 of 933
now I have make my first Test with the 2.0 Version.
I have found a little Bug: The instruction for how to mount and arrange the Spider in Front of the Screen, works not every time. Most there comes the instruction for a Monitor (Projector is always checked, see attached settings- Picture) and sometimes the right one comes for PJ (without filter, high and space for the Spider on the Screen).

I have become odd results from the Calibration. The "S"- Curves in the Pictures are the calibrated Settings!? At this point I think the uncalibrated Setting are the better ones.
Have I make anything wrong ore what can be the hind for this?

I hope my english is not to bad, sorry for that.

Best regards Damdy
LL
LL
LL
post #86 of 933
and the blue- curve
LL
post #87 of 933
Damdy,

Unless I am wrong, I don't think that you did the calibration right.
When I am done with the calibration, I can click on the calibrated option.

Someone with more expertise will come in here pretty quick.

Arno

PS: Did you check the thread about the calibration with Optical in this forum?
Pretty good info there.
post #88 of 933
Thread Starter 
Damdy-cash - you really need to play with the contrast/brightness controls for each primary before locking in that profile. Otherwise, you will probably get very visible color errors with that much of a shift.

lewdog - I think that to do justice to the answer of "why gamma", I should really just point you to Poynton's gamma FAQ (and the others, for that matter) at www.poynton.com.
post #89 of 933
Ursa--I understand why gamma is important and what it is. I don't understand how you're using what mathematical modeling for what purpose, if that makes sense.
post #90 of 933
Thread Starter 
lewdog - I'll take you at your word that you understand what gamma is, so I'm a bit confused about the second half of your question. Not to be pedantic, but there is an equation that relates stimulus to luminance [Y, or light output]; this equation would be what is being modeled. Gamma is the name of the exponential term that makes it all work. I guess I'm missing where your confusion is unless it is "how does the gamma equation work", at which point I refer you back to Poynton. And then we go 'round again.

At some point, someone needs to yell out, "Third Base", before we go too far down this path.

Later,
Bill
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