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Sanyo Z4 MSRP $2999 - Page 2

post #31 of 2046
9/1/05 at 2:26am
can someone please post a babel fish translation of the second part of the review, as i dont know how to do that!!

krlock2
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post #32 of 2046
9/1/05 at 2:56am
Part two in short

less screendoor but not a huge difference

color is good, you can tune secondaries

non tuned contrast with DI BIG let down 1800:1 . With tuning they claim 4300:1. We should remember they are in the tuning business.

I am sad to say they could see VB, less than D4 and there is a VB menu to tune it away.

Selectable overscan is a good feature

REMEMBER
Pre production unit!

I am most disappointed by the contrast with the auto iris engaged without tuning. That is why I have highe hopes for an Epson with a built in cinema filter.
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post #33 of 2046
9/1/05 at 3:10am
Thread Starter 
Yeah, they specifically say VB is NOT solved with D5. Still no new PJ for me then, this is still the dealbreaker that stiops me from getting a new one (that and the high price of DLP )

Neko
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post #34 of 2046
9/1/05 at 3:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohcello View Post

Their review of the Z2 measured a contrast of 700:1

Their review of the Z3 measured a contrast of 900:1 in cinema mode.

Their review of the Z4 measured a contrast of 1100:1 in cinema mode with the adaptive iris turned off, 1600:1 with the iris turned on.

I don't know what special color filters are and how they achieved 4100:1 contrast, but it appears the D5 panels add about a 20% increase of the D4 and the rest is done with the adaptive iris 'trickery'.

By the way, the Sony HS51 measured an 1200:1 with the iris off
Infocus 4805 - 1800:1

There are many factors that impact CR, with the LCD panel used being only one. At the panel level, Epson specifies a 50% increase in CR from 500:1 (D4) to 750:1 (D5). I am not sure how they got this figure given that projectors using these panels tend to have much higher contrast. BTW, there is an early report that the upcoming D5 Epson 600 has a 3000:1 CR with its DI turner off.
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post #35 of 2046
9/1/05 at 5:39am
Maybe it's the translation but I understood it that the dynamic iris is deactived for the 1800:1 contrast reading. I think the picture mode is dynamic which deviates from the d6500k standard, probably much cooler compared to the 1100:1 cinema mode.

Quote:


non tuned contrast with DI BIG let down 1800:1 . With tuning they claim 4300:1. We should remember they are in the tuning business.
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post #36 of 2046
9/1/05 at 5:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ac388 View Post

Hope the VB will go away with the production model, or else I have to borrow BlackRiderX's eyes.


You can have them.

In all honesty my eyes suck, but I have seen VB before and I havn't noticed it on my z3 yet.
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post #37 of 2046
9/1/05 at 5:49am
The 1800:1 contrast is with DI switched off and most dynamic picture setting.
This is basically the real-world maximum contrast of the panels and optics.

This is just to see what the panels can deliver and does not relate to any real use case. With reference to other cine4home articles, the do this to see what the maximum contrast of the system is, so they know where to aim for when using filters to tune the color. This is obviously more complicated when switching the iris back on, but it does give an indication of how hard the iris has to work to get 4000:1 out of the system.


Liam
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post #38 of 2046
9/1/05 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post

Yeah, they specifically say VB is NOT solved with D5. Still no new PJ for me then, this is still the dealbreaker that stiops me from getting a new one (that and the high price of DLP )

Neko

I don't think the review makes that much emphasis - they say that the VB is reduced compared to the Z3, and that it can be tuned in menus. They also point out that this is a pre-production machine and so we should not read too much into it.
If it can be tuned away completely and stay that way for months, then I would say it is "solved". If not, then it still remains to be seen if "reduced" is good enough.

Besides, I think VB is like rainbows or dithering on DLP - some people don't notice it, others can see it but are not worried and others find it a major issue. All of these things have improved over time, but if you are particularly sensitive, then you may just have to live with the fact that it will never go away completely.


Liam
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post #39 of 2046
9/1/05 at 6:19am
Liam,

The point is that the buzz around the D5 panel was that it was going to be inherently free from VB. Which is obviously not the case.
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post #40 of 2046
9/1/05 at 6:31am
5000:1 (Specification)
4800:1 (Modes "Dynamik" and "Lebhaft") Color Temperature too high
1600:1 (Mode "Kino authentisch) can be increased to over 2000:1 after Optimization
1800:1 ((Mode "Dynamik") with auto iris deactivated
1100:1 (Mode "Pure Cinema) with auto iris deactivated

with color filters in order to correct the too high color temp. a contrast ration of 4100:1 can be achieved
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post #41 of 2046
9/1/05 at 6:57am
Below is the translated link for the second part of the review. The interesting part is near the end.

Cliick on the review and it will be translated to English.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/babel...de%2findex.htm
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post #42 of 2046
9/1/05 at 8:44am
According to this site, they are estimating the price of the z4 at 2290 Euros, which would be $2800!!

This sounds really high as I've read the ae900 will be $2399... I hope they are wrong...

http://www.heimkinomarkt.de/News_Ein...p?news_ID=1973
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post #43 of 2046
9/1/05 at 10:11am
Think MSRP on this one. Street prices will be lower. Think HS51 minus a competitive discount...
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post #44 of 2046
9/1/05 at 11:33am
"Still no new PJ for me then, this is still the dealbreaker that stiops me from getting a new one (that and the high price of DLP )"

Sony HS50 has no VB.

"The point is that the buzz around the D5 panel was that it was going to be inherently free from VB. Which is obviously not the case."

There was plenty of wishful thinking and hoping, but there was never anything definitive to indicate that would be the case.

IIRC the only info related to VB was a new scheme of pixel driving electronics, which *could* be related to VB if it worked on columns of pixels, but that was not stated, and it could just as well have been referring to the whole panel.
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post #45 of 2046
9/1/05 at 12:40pm
I have a Z3 that I use for back up, and it has a good 400 hours on it. Have yet to see any VB on this projector. I know the PANY 700, has this issue,to some degree, however wasn't aware the Z3 was plagued with this issue,( mine certainly isn't, so if the Z4 is even better, than I view that as positive news,not a negative one to dissuade a potential purchase.

CHEERS, T
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post #46 of 2046
9/1/05 at 2:00pm
Tom,

There's a lot of unit-to-unit variation of VB, so how much one pj has can't be generealized.
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post #47 of 2046
9/1/05 at 2:02pm
MRJAZZZ
With VB it can be an issue on a certain type of projector. A projector can get the rep of having terribel VB , but some and to some projectors and people it is not.
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post #48 of 2046
9/1/05 at 7:38pm
I have a Z2 and I have never been able to see VB on it. I plan to upgrade just to get improved CR, and hope that any VB is the same...invisible! I just hope the CR from Z2 is very noticable. What I am reading about Z4 is leading me away from more expensive DLP models (Optoma) I have been studying of late. LCD may be too close DLP to justify the higher costs. I hope there is a well done review ASAP.
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post #49 of 2046
9/1/05 at 8:03pm
from the translation:

"It was improved in almost all interests opposite its predecessor and/or again developed. Thus it offers a better Verabeitung, more Aufstellunsgkomfort and a clearer operation. Besides he works still more quietly than its predecessor, who was likewise already everything else as loud."

anyone know what Verabeitung and Aufstellunsgkomfort are?
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post #50 of 2046
9/1/05 at 9:54pm
To me nothing to be excited about - looks like Sanyo has not quite achieved with Z4 what Sony has had for a year with HS-51.
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post #51 of 2046
9/1/05 at 10:54pm
I think "Verabeitung" was misspelled and should have been "Verarbeitung" = workmanship (roughly).

I'm guessing that "Aufstellungskomfort" literally translates to "comfortable brightness", but I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean (my German is very rusty ). It could be translated to saying that the Z4 has better contrast.
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post #52 of 2046
9/1/05 at 11:28pm
Aufstellungskomfort refers to the broad lensshift, zoom and throw ranges the pj has. The Z4 is improved compared to the Z3 in this respect...
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post #53 of 2046
9/2/05 at 1:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wohlstad View Post

To me nothing to be excited about - looks like Sanyo has not quite achieved with Z4 what Sony has had for a year with HS-51.

There is obviously some truth in what you say, but here in the UK, the sanyos have come in cheaper, more available and the tiny problems that have happened have been sorted for me in days.

The Z series is evolution of a winning formula for a damn good price if not cutting edge.

I will be adding the Z4 to my list of ready to tweak projectors in october, and a good community of tweakers have survived the Z3. Onwards and upwards!
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post #54 of 2046
9/2/05 at 5:14am
Thread Starter 
Liam, the text says:

"Auch bei der neuesten D5-Generation bleibt Vertical Banding ein Thema: Das Vorseriengerät wies noch eine gewisse Streifenbildung auf, die aber mit Hiilfe des VB-Menüs auf ein sehr gutes Maß reduziert werden konnte."

which means (I speak German pretty well, but feel free to correct): In the newest G5-generation Vertical banding is still an issue: the preproduction device still had some banding, that could however with the help of the VB Menu be reduced to a very good level."

That means: VB is still there, and as Grubert pointed out that was the big thing that was supposed to be fixed with G5. Very disappointing. Sure, a lot of people have PJs without VB, but there will be no guarantee just like with the G4 devices. If you happen to get one with VB and can't get it away fully, tough luck, no warranty, no return (at least where I live). While prices are fair, they're still way too high for me to take such a gamble.

Considering the announced prices though, I don't really see the big improvement that would make one choose the Z4 over the now much cheaper Z3. Or the Panny 700. Or the Hitachi tx100.

I do see VB, and it annoys the heck out of me. I still have an SVGA DLP, and will stick with it until that is solved or HD DLP comes down in price (not much chance of that, if LCD isn't offering more for less with this generation)

Noah, the Sony had a number of other flaws when I read tests about it, and added with the much higher price (at least over here, not sure of the difference in the USA) over the other PJs, I dropped it from my shortlist. Another disappointment. Seems we won't get a repeat of the impact of last generation of LCD PJs (Hidef at low cost) - no revolution this year, only evolution and not enough added value to convince me to part with my money.

The one big thing at IFA IMHO is the release of mini DLP PJs with LEDs instead of lamps. Hopefully that technology will rapidly develop and get applied to larger PJs. Stable light levels over a long lifetime and low cost. And for DLP they even eliminate the need for colorwheels.

Neko
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post #55 of 2046
9/2/05 at 12:20pm
to have no VB you need delta structured pixels. unless you do that, VB will ALWAYS be there

real contrast doubled from Z3/HITACHI 100/PANA AE700 which is good

one can buy the CINE4HOME tuned LCD projectors btw
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post #56 of 2046
9/2/05 at 1:32pm
Thread Starter 
I didn't say there were no improvements, just no real spectacular ones. We expected some serious issues to be fixed, they are not, and so the D5 generation is a bit disappointing. That's what you get when expectations have been created and are not fulfilled.

As for the Cine4home tuning version, this does not address VB, only perfect color, whitebalance, contrast, gamma etc settings. If the PJ you're having tuned has VB, there's nothing any tuning can change about that.

I asked when the Panny 700 was just out and offered at a shop in Aachen, and they sold the Cine4home version. They specifically stated VB is not under warranty, it is no reason for return.

YMMV, but for me VB is the issue that keeps me away from LCD. Give LCD superior contrast to DLP, and make it on all counts better than DLP, but leave in VB, and I still wouldn't buy LCD.

Neko
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post #57 of 2046
9/2/05 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post

YMMV, but for me VB is the issue that keeps me away from LCD. Give LCD superior contrast to DLP, and make it on all counts better than DLP, but leave in VB, and I still wouldn't buy LCD.

Neko

Funny, but I feel the same way about single chip DLP. Make it better in every aspect than LCD, but if it keeps that stupid spinning colour wheel that gives me viewing discomfort, then forget it.
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post #58 of 2046
9/2/05 at 4:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post

Liam, the text says:
which means (I speak German pretty well, but feel free to correct): In the newest G5-generation Vertical banding is still an issue: the preproduction device still had some banding, that could however with the help of the VB Menu be reduced to a very good level."
Neko

Neko,

I also speak fluent German, but I think the difference lies in the interpretation of what they are saying. You are emphasizing the the "VB is still somewhat visible" (wies noch eine gewisse Streifenbildung auf), where i would place more emphasis on "reduced to a very good level".

As I said previously, if it can be reduced to a level which is not noticeable and more importantly, stay that way, then it is solved.
If you have to tune it out every 30 minutes, or it cannot be tuned below a level which you find acceptable, then it is still an issue.
This remains to be seen.

The point is basically that every projection technology has it's problems, whether it be contrast and VB, or rainbows and dithering, or heat and convergence: we just have to live with them. To a certain extent, our own personal perception might make one technology or another totally unacceptable. Some people are hyper sensitive to rainbows, but with 5x color wheels, most people are happy. It is unlikely that TI will go to 7x or 9x just to make sure everyone is happy because it is diminishing returns.

I don't recall a lot of people complaining about VB on the Z3 (compared to the ae700 for instance), and the Z4 seems to be better, and tunable. So that is good. Only you can decide if that is good enough.

BTW I think I remember some people (very few) complaining about VB on the Sony HS50 too, even though virtually every body else says it's VB free. Some people are just sensitive to certain things.


Liam
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post #59 of 2046
9/2/05 at 6:23pm
Vertical Banding. If its still there in production, then that is aweful. Is this a problem with Epson LCD panels? Sony seems to be free of it? Is this not true? We'll wait and see how production units fair, but I was hoping to hear of Vertical Bandings demise. Here's hoping its less noticable overall in all the D5 projectors vs the previous models.
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post #60 of 2046
9/2/05 at 6:28pm
there is some vb on HS50 too. unless you have a delta arrangement of pixels, VB will always be there. it's even there on the Fujitsu 1080p that costs $25000 !

rainbows craziness is really academic now with 6-8 segments wheels, frankly. dithering also on 8segment wheels now.

lcd is good looking at twice the distance but even there if vb is barely noticeable, you have the color shading. dlp is also much sharper due to absence of misconvergence and 90% fill factor.
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