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Sanyo Z4 MSRP $2999 - Page 3

post #61 of 2046
9/2/05 at 6:29pm
a 1024X576 dlp is sharper than a 1280x720 lcd.
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post #62 of 2046
9/2/05 at 6:39pm
I would tend to disagree with that. If the LCD has decent panel alignment and optics, then the 720P LCD will show more detail than the Matterhorn DLP.
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post #63 of 2046
9/2/05 at 6:42pm
"unless you have a delta arrangement of pixels, VB will always be there."

It might be less visible, for the same reason it gives subjectively less SD, but I don't see why it would actually be any less.
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post #64 of 2046
9/3/05 at 2:11am
>>rainbows craziness is really academic now with 6-8 segments wheels, frankly. dithering also on 8segment wheels now.

I am happy you think so, but for those who have an issue with rainbows, they they are not gone, mereley "reduced". Just like VB us now "reduced".

I personally am not unduly bothered by rainbows, but I know someone who is, and it is NOT because they sit there shaking their head all the time.

Liam
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post #65 of 2046
9/3/05 at 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

a 1024X576 dlp is sharper than a 1280x720 lcd.

I dissagree with this as well. Having owned both, I feel 1280x720 lcd is sharper and less prone to show artifacts in the source material. For example, some poorly transferred dvds look horrible on my Matterhorn dlp due to the larger pixel structure than on my 720p lcd.
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post #66 of 2046
9/3/05 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LMJohnson View Post

>>rainbows craziness is really academic now with 6-8 segments wheels, frankly. dithering also on 8segment wheels now.

I am happy you think so, but for those who have an issue with rainbows, they they are not gone, mereley "reduced". Just like VB us now "reduced".

I personally am not unduly bothered by rainbows, but I know someone who is, and it is NOT because they sit there shaking their head all the time.

Liam

I am one of those unfortunate ones ... I get splitting headaches from just a half hour of DLP viewing even though I cannot see the rainbows
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post #67 of 2046
9/3/05 at 2:38pm
Sanker,
I am the same. I get headaches from single chip DLP although I rarely see a rainbow. Having said that, I do believe that 720P single chip DLP projectors offer overall better picture quality than 720P D4 LCD projectors, albeit at a higher price point. For me, however, the spinning colour wheel makes single chip DLP an impossibility. Hopefully the D5 panel LCD projectors will mean that those of us who cannot live with single chip DLP will not be sacrificing any picture quality in order to have a relaxed viewing experience.
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post #68 of 2046
9/3/05 at 3:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post

I didn't say there were no improvements, just no real spectacular ones. We expected some serious issues to be fixed, they are not, and so the D5 generation is a bit disappointing. That's what you get when expectations have been created and are not fulfilled.

Neko

Why not wait until you see the bloody D5 based pjs before saying they offer no real spectacular improvements or that problems werent fixed.
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post #69 of 2046
9/3/05 at 3:58pm
rlindo,
Couldn't agree more. I don't know how many people have been complaining about VB with the D5 panel based solely upon a poorly translated preliminary review of a single D5 prototype projector. Talk about jumping to conclusions.
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post #70 of 2046
9/3/05 at 4:11pm
here here
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post #71 of 2046
9/4/05 at 3:31am
Thread Starter 
Rlindo, I don't need to translate the article - I speak German fluently. And excuse me, but I have more confindence in Ekkehart's test, however preliminary, than wishfull thinking from those who neither read the full article nor have seen the PJ.

Scott, the hype around D5 was that these panels by themselves would solve VB. If the first PJ out there with D5 still has VB, that means the panels do not solve the issue, and VB is still a major problem to be taken into account with LCD. That alone will disappoint many who have been waiting with great anticipation for D5 technology.

Let's not help companies hype products, there's plenty of that around already.

Neko
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post #72 of 2046
9/4/05 at 6:35am
Neko,
If the VB can be tweaked out using a menu option (BTW the Epson Cinema 500 had this option which I used to great effect with my Cinema 500), then that is all that matters.
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post #73 of 2046
9/4/05 at 7:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

rlindo,
Couldn't agree more. I don't know how many people have been complaining about VB with the D5 panel based solely upon a poorly translated preliminary review of a single D5 prototype projector. Talk about jumping to conclusions.

How are the results of a test of this panel ( prototype or not) jumping to conclusions? Sounds like first hand experiance to me.

If this is the panel that is supposed to get rid of VB and the reviewer (preliminary or not, German or not) sees VB than it seems pretty straight foward that people are "jumping" to the only logical conclusion.
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post #74 of 2046
9/4/05 at 7:14am
Thread Starter 
Scott, as I mentioned in my other posts, tweaking is no solution. On most PJs you cannot tweak it out 100%, and if you're stuck with a PJ that has VB, it cannot be fixed and at least opver here you do not get any warranty.

Tweaking was already implemented on the D4 generation. Some got lucky others did not.

Again, it's this lottery that was supposed to get fixed. And it was supposed to be fixed by the panels, not by some patching done in the PJs menu.

What people expected was a PJ that had no VB tweaking in the menu because it was fixed out of the box.

Cine4home's Z4 after tweaking still had VB! Not very badly so, but it was still there.

I've seen a few Panasonics and an Epson, most had very little VB (but I still could see it and was bothered by it), and one had it really badly and no tuning could improve it. In all cases, no return warranty on VB issues. I don't have the money to play this kind of lottery. I want VB free PJs out of the box and a guarantee there will be no VB or I get my money back.

Such a guarantee is not given by any store, not on D4, and not on D5 considering the Cine4home test results.

Neko
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post #75 of 2046
9/4/05 at 7:34am
Neko,
I don't disagree that VB is a distraction. My first Cinema 500 was exchanged due to VB. The second unit had less VB which I was able to significantly reduct with tweaking. Do I still notice it. Yes, I do because I know what to look for. Does it bother me. No, not really. I was hoping that this would be addressed with the D5 panels, and I am still hoping that it has. I think that you should hold off judgement on the D5 panels until production units are tested. BTW, Epson offers a swap out program which should cover VB issues. It is my understanding that the other manufacturers, i.e. Panasonic, Sanyo, Hitachi, do not.
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post #76 of 2046
9/4/05 at 8:28am
I would also add to this discussion that the pre-production attributes still to be worked out would be outside of the LCD panels. Assembly, optics, firmware, power supply (I'm really pulling stuff of my you-know-what here). I wouldn't think that the LCD panels themselves would be pre-production panels coming from Epson. I would think that Epson reached production level status on the panes sometime ago.

So, if there is *some* VB it is inherent still in the LCD panels.
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post #77 of 2046
9/4/05 at 8:52am
KramerTC,
I am sure that you are correct regarding the panels themselves. The manner in which the panels are addressed (voltage across the panels) may, however, be modified (I too am pulling stuff out of my you-know-what).
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post #78 of 2046
9/4/05 at 11:26am
Neko,

"the hype around D5 was that these panels by themselves would solve VB. ...Let's not help companies hype products, there's plenty of that around already."

The companies never hyped or even mentioned that D5 would address VB.

Nor has anyone else; there have only been rumours, speculation, and wishful thinking.

Go ahead and keep complaining about your disappointment, but there's no justification for blaming anyone else, except posters here.
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post #79 of 2046
9/4/05 at 11:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott B View Post

Epson offers a swap out program which should cover VB issues. It is my understanding that the other manufacturers, i.e. Panasonic, Sanyo, Hitachi, do not.

Unfortunately, no company here in Benelux offers such warranty, and AFAIK not in any of the other European states. I've been concentrating my attention on Germany because of low prices there, but also, no warranty on VB.

Dead pixels, yes, but even there you often have to be a bit pushy to get a unit exchanged.

Neko
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post #80 of 2046
9/4/05 at 12:00pm
VB....FPN....Thats why I stick with Sony. I've had three of em; the vw400Q, the vw10HT, and now the HS20. It's just a rock solid picture, and yes they are more expensive but well worth it imo.
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post #81 of 2046
9/4/05 at 12:05pm
Thread Starter 
Noah, if that is indeed the case it has gotten really out of hand because I didn't hear about it here first but in a HT magazine. If this is just a rumour instead of Epson press info, it's managed to spread out into the world really nicely. Not that Epson will mind...

Neko
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post #82 of 2046
9/4/05 at 12:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

VB....FPN....Thats why I stick with Sony. I've had three of em; the vw400Q, the vw10HT, and now the HS20. It's just a rock solid picture, and yes they are more expensive but well worth it imo.

worth it to you...but not to others who would rather not pay more and end up with a darker picture. it's all subjective.
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post #83 of 2046
9/4/05 at 12:37pm
>>Unfortunately, no company here in Benelux offers such warranty,

It is a few years ago now, but I bought a Sony VW10 here in Germany for a friend because it was significantly cheaper than in the UK.

I went to the shop and checked it out with a test DVD before paying for it - it was fine.

The VW10 was a lot more expensive than the current crop and you will probably have to pay somewhat more at a shop that an internet dealer, but you might find one that is prepared to let you check it ouy before you buy.
Worth a try at least.

Liam
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post #84 of 2046
9/4/05 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post

Unfortunately, no company here in Benelux offers such warranty, and AFAIK not in any of the other European states. I've been concentrating my attention on Germany because of low prices there, but also, no warranty on VB.

Dead pixels, yes, but even there you often have to be a bit pushy to get a unit exchanged.

Neko

Epson Canada did and I presume still does. I cannot speak for other regions.
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post #85 of 2046
9/4/05 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

VB....FPN....Thats why I stick with Sony. I've had three of em; the vw400Q, the vw10HT, and now the HS20. It's just a rock solid picture, and yes they are more expensive but well worth it imo.

The HS20 that I tried in my HT did not have any VB or FPN which resulted in a smoother image than my Epson Cinema 500. The Cinema 500 badly outperformed the HS20 in other aspects. If it were not for the low light output of the HS51, I would have one of those right now. Hopefully the HS51 replacement will have significantly higher light output, but if not, then the upcoming Epson TW600 is looking pretty good.
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post #86 of 2046
9/4/05 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KuroNeko View Post

Unfortunately, no company here in Benelux offers such warranty, and AFAIK not in any of the other European states. I've been concentrating my attention on Germany because of low prices there, but also, no warranty on VB.

Dead pixels, yes, but even there you often have to be a bit pushy to get a unit exchanged.

Neko

Not true - in Estonia i could exchange projector if it had bad VB.
And even more - in 14 days i can return almost any product back to shop for full refund if i didnt liked it
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post #87 of 2046
9/4/05 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBMAN View Post

VB....FPN....Thats why I stick with Sony. I've had three of em; the vw400Q, the vw10HT, and now the HS20. It's just a rock solid picture, and yes they are more expensive but well worth it imo.

My 5 year old Sony VPL-W400Q is getting a little long in the tooth, but I didn't know what VB was until I read about it here. I don't have to tweak a menu or pull the plug every time I turn it off, I just don't have VB -- ever. I am baffled why Sony was able to solve this problem years ago, and some of the best minds in the business continue to flop around and come up with half fixes. Maybe I should offer to sell Epson my 400Q so they can study the secret technology in the Sony panels? (-8

Jeff
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post #88 of 2046
9/4/05 at 3:13pm
400Q has a delta pixel arrangement (there are no vertical columns of pixels) which would not make is susceptible to VB. But I do agree that Sony seems to have a better handle on VB with their LCD panels than Epson does.
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post #89 of 2046
9/4/05 at 5:55pm
I think we should wait until AV Fourm members and Projector Central test the Z4. Cine4home does post very good reviews buy as they said they tested a pre-production model. It is possible that the V4 does show VB but we should wait and see what the results of the production model bring. I have previously had a Z2 and I now own a AE700.
I had VB issues with both but they seem to have disappeared on My AE700 after 100 hours.
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post #90 of 2046
9/5/05 at 6:48am
So the elimination of VB on the D5 panels was more wishful thinking by forum members? The fact that it is seen on the preproduction model means it was not eliminated by the D5 panel especially since they have a menu option to tweak VB. If it was really eliminated why would you need a menu option?

Does anyone know what design changes could have been made to the D5 panels to add a delta pixel arrangement ? Does this mean that the new 1080 D5 panels will have the same problem? I guess Epson thinks VB is not a serious issue and figures it won't effect sales.
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