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New NHT Classic line to replace Super Audio - Page 3

post #61 of 10792
Tom, it's absolutely normal for a company to not put product literature on its website until it is actually shipping. Actually, it's rather sane and sober. But it is also good to be able to have this kind of dialogue for those who are looking beyond the current models for whatever reason.
post #62 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

Even if you did use three of exactly the same speaker for the front channels, without a TV, they won't sound the same. The output from the L and R channels is being shadowed by your head differently than a speaker that is pointing straight ahead.

Que?
post #63 of 10792
>>Even if you did use three of exactly the same speaker for the front channels, without a TV, they won't sound the same. The output from the L and R channels is being shadowed by your head differently than a speaker that is pointing straight ahead.
__________________
Jack Hidley
Director of Engineering NHT <<


An interesting notion I haven't heard before....

Yes, I suppose that an identical speaker can't really sound "exactly" the same as either R or L when positioned straight ahead (due to hrtf's), but I would certainly think it would sound smoother than a horizontal MTM. Admittedly, the MTM center channel will be capable of greater output than either the R or L mains, but smoother pans across the front? Fascinating.

Ran
post #64 of 10792
phhht....John beat me to it.
post #65 of 10792
Jack,

Now I am confused. I am looking at going with all Three's potentially in my 11x13 HT room. The using a Three for the center would obviously save me a little money, especially if I go with a 6.1 setup. I could go with the 3C, but that would give me an extra Three left over, unless I went with a 7.1 setup. I have heard that my room could be too small for a 7.1 system (not enough channel separation). But I will be using a ceiling mounted front projector and will have no TV cabinet in the front to put the speaker on. So is the 3C designed to go in a cabinet? If that is the case, would a Three center sound better since a stand is what I will be using for the center? I am concerned about sound, not looks. Thanks!
post #66 of 10792
Ran,

I wasn't arguing in favor of an MTM center channel. The 2C and 3C are both 3-ways with the midrange and tweeter vertical. An MTM center channel will have worse performance than a 2-way L and R in every way except maximum output.

The 2C and 3C are both designed to be either on top of or just below a large TV screen. The effect of the large TV screen is to increase the speakers lower midrange output. If you use the 2C or 3C on a stand without this extra baffle area (TV screen) they will sound thin. In your case I would go ahead and use the Three for the center since you don't have a TV.
post #67 of 10792
Thread Starter 
Quote:


The 2C and 3C are both designed to be either on top of or just below a large TV screen. The effect of the large TV screen is to increase the speakers lower midrange output. If you use the 2C or 3C on a stand without this extra baffle area (TV screen) they will sound thin. In your case I would go ahead and use the Three for the center since you don't have a TV.

Jack, do I understand you correctly that the 2C and 3C center channel speakers were specifically designed NOT to work well with a front projection application?
post #68 of 10792
Thread Starter 
Here are the specs.

**********

ABSOLUTE ZERO. Our newest, and best mini-monitor to date, the Absolute Zero combines NHT's new 5.25" woofer and 1" aluminum dome tweeter to make beautiful music together. Easily wall mounted using the threaded insert on the rear panel, or place it on a shelf or stand with the user installed cabinet rails. Frequency Response. 71 Hz 20kHz, Sensitivity: 86dB (2.83v@1m), Impedance: 6 ohms nominal, Dimensions: 9.75" x 5.625" x 7.25 (H x W x D), Weight: 8 lbs. each. Available in High Gloss Black or White.

TWO. The Two is the Absolute Zero with deeper bass extension and higher power handling. Using a 6.5" woofer in a larger enclosure than the Absolute Zero, the Two produces a big room-filling sound with no loss of detail. Easily wall mountable. using a pair of rear panel threaded inserts. Frequency Response: 51 Hz 20kHz, Sensitivity: 86dB (2.83v@1m), Impedance: 6 ohms nominal, Dimensions: 12.125" x 7" x 8.875" (H x W x D), Weight: 12.7 lbs. each. Available in High Gloss Black or White.

THREE. The best bookshelf speaker we've ever made, period. The Three is a 3-way, acoustic suspension design that features a newly developed 6.5" aluminum cone bass driver, and NHT's exclusive midrange/tweeter assembly. Offering a wider listening area, better deep bass extension and higher power handling than the Two, the new Three is the ultimate bookshelf speaker for music and film. Frequency Response: 45Hz-20kHz, Sensitivity 86dB (2.83v@1m) Impedance: 8 ohms Nominal, Dimensions. 13.75" x 7.5" x 10.375" (H x W x D), Weight: 17 lbs. each. Wall Mountable. Available in High Gloss Black.

FOUR. This attractive floor standing loudspeaker is the Three with the addition of a 10" side-firing subwoofer. For installations where an additional outboard subwoofer is impractical, the Four is an ideal choice. For even better performance, the Four can be bi amplified with NHT's optional A1 amplifier and X2 crossover. Frequency Response: 27Hz-20kHz, Sensitivity 86dB (2.83v@1m) Impedance: 6 ohms Nominal, Dimensions: 41 x 7.5" x 16" (H x W x D), Weight: 64 lbs. each. Available in High Gloss Black.

TWELVE. The Twelve's gracefully curved cabinet houses a massive 12" aluminum cone driver and an efficient, powerful 250 watt Class G amplifier - a duo capable of filling even the largest rooms with powerful, clean deep bass. Boundary EQ., adjustable phase, and LFE outputs make this subwoofer easy to integrate into any high performance audio/video system. Frequency Response: 27Hz-180Hz (+/-3dB), Dimensions. 20.125" x 13" x 15.75" (H x W x D), Weight: 49 lbs. Available in High Gloss Black.

TEN. A scaled down version of the Twelve designed for use in small to medium sized rooms, the Ten couples a highly efficient 150 watt amplifier to a 10" aluminum cone woofer to make tight, tuneful bass. Frequency Response: 31 Hz-180Hz (+/- 3dB), Dimensions: 18.125" x 11.25" x 15" (H x W x D), Weight: 41 lbs. Available in High Gloss Black.

TWO C. The ideal center channel match for the Absolute Zero and Two, the Two C combines NHT's new midrange/ tweeter assembly with dual 5.25" aluminum cone woofers to create a center speaker that sounds great outside the narrow "sweet spot" produced by ANY 2-way design. Frequency Response: 78Hz-20kHz, Sensitivity 87dB (2.83v@1m), Impedance: 8 ohms Nominal, Dimensions: 6.5" x 19.875" x 7.375" (H x W x D), Weight: 20 lbs. each. Available in High Gloss Black.

THREE C. Optimized for use with the Three and Four, the Three C uses two 6.5" aluminum cone woofers and NHT's new midrange/tweeter assembly to create a huge listening area. Designed to play well in even the largest rooms, the Three C is the ideal center speaker for high performance multi-channel music and movies. Frequency Response: 73Hz-20kHz, Sensitivity 87dB (2.83v@1m), Impedance: 8 ohms Nominal, Dimensions: 7" x 21.825" x 8.25" (H x W x D), Weight: 23 lbs each. Available in High Gloss Black.
post #69 of 10792
Is there any word on when we can get our paws on the Classic 3?
And will the Classic 3 keep the integrated wall/ceiling mounting abilities of the SB3?

dc
post #70 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvana_av View Post

It was my understanding that audiophiles listened to music produced by musical instruments, not explosions and shockwaves.



I said "audiophile", not audiophile!!!
post #71 of 10792
Tom, if you have a front projector, it will probably make sense to do three THREEs or a pair of FOURS with a three. Unless you need very high output
post #72 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

The Evolution subwoofers have a -3dB point of 26Hz. If you really must have the last 6Hz, it is fairly simple to modify the X1 crossover to drop the -3dB point to 20Hz. However, once you do this, the subwoofer won't be able to play as loud. To keep SPL constant as frequency drops one octave (40Hz to 20Hz), the driver excursion increases 4 times! Keep in mind that as frequency decreases, the ears sensitivity decreases also. This means that you have to generate a 20Hz signal at a higher SPL than a 40Hz signal, just for it to have the same loudness. This means that you end up wasting a large amount of amplifier power and woofer excursion just to get the last 6Hz. The vast majority of people are happier with a subwoofer that produces 26Hz, louder and with lower distortion.



I find that makes a lot of sense from my experience, with some reservations. How much is the high pass filter frequency down in output level at the stated frequency? Would it always be down 3dB at the specified frequency?

I have an older NHT 2.1 based system, and I fill in the low end of the 2.1's (3 way 40hz f3) with a single NHT SW-2P subwoofer low pass filtered at 50hz.

I did try dual SW-2P's stacked on top of each other with that same setup. I noticed that after recalibration of levels for the dual subs, that the bass was smoother at higher volume levels (less distortion) and would ultimately play louder if I pushed the system that much (DD/DTS booms). Those trials were with the original MA-1A amplifier.

For music, I found that a single subwoofer was fine.

For DD and DTS movies, at normal volume "boom" levels the single subwoofer was fine also. However, the stacked subwoofers just sounded a bit "cleaner" during the stressful low bass parts of an action movie if I played the system louder than usual!

However, the original MA-1A subwoofer amplifer is not high pass filtered, so it is only down 3dB at 10hz. The newer SA-2 subwoofer amplifier is high pass filtered, but is down 6dB at 20hz and about 30dB at 10hz. I modified the SA-2 to be down 1dB at 20hz, and to my ears the subwoofer sounds a bit better with the high pass filter lowered in frequency. As far as I recall the f3 point is around 18hz.

The SA-3 subwoofer amplifer is specifed as down 3dB at 10hz!

The question is, what is the best frequency to use for the high pass filter, and what measurement (down 3dB?) is used to determine this frequency???
post #73 of 10792
Tom,

The 2C and 3C are designed to sound their best when on top of a large screen TV. Given this fact, when removed from the TV, and put on a stand for use with a projector, they aren't going to sound as good. This is true of any center channel speaker. The designers can optimize it for on TV placement, stand placement or something in between. Unless the speaker has multiple crossovers (a la the M5/M6) it can not be optimiezed for different acoustic environments. The thing that is probably freaking you out here is that almost all other manufacturers will tell you that their center channel will work fine in both applications. They can claim this, but unless it has two crossovers in it that are switchable, they are wrong.

The only real way to know for sure if you like the sound of the 2C or 3C used on a stand is to listen to it. FYI, the closer the 2C or 3C are located to the ground, the better the frequency response will be. The ground will behave somewhat like the baffle that a large TV creates. If you put the 2C or 3C on a 24"-30" tall stand, they will definitely sound different than when placed on a large TV.
post #74 of 10792
Thread Starter 
Jack:

I appreciate the problems designers face when trying to optimize a speaker for different environments. However, given the direction in which the video market is clearly moving --plasma, LCD, DLP flat panels, and digital front projection. Plasma alone is now more popular than CRT rear projection--I have to wonder about the wisdom of specifically targeting a center channel for use with CRT direct views and rear projectors, whose market share is clearly declining overall and especially declining in the high end, the market that includes those consumers most willing to pay $600 for a center channel.

Perhaps a boundary switch, ala M5/M6, would have been a good idea, but alas that's water under the bridge. Despite this somewhat disappointing news, I'm still enthusiastic about the new line.
post #75 of 10792
Jack,

I am going to buy a new TV stand since the 2C and 3C will not fit in my current one.

This is the stand I am interested in and it will solve my center placement issue.

How well do you think it will work sonically?
I have never put a center under a TV.

Here is my post in the display area with a link to the stand.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I currently have a 40" wide and 21" deep CWD stand/cabinet that my 42A10 fits perfectly on.

Like most of us I have absolutley no place to put a center channel.
Unless I were to build another shelf on top to put the TV, and the center under.

I have looked at every TV stand currently available and feel that I would have to go with a fairly expensive and probably 60"+ wide 3 bay stand.
So that the center would fit in the center bay and my equipment on either side.

Just go back from World Market and found this new media center.
40" wide and 24" deep.
With a shelf directly under the TV! Perfect for the center.
AND there is enough width inside to stack my equipment side by side.
There is also a removable shelf inside and I can unscrew the doors too.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and you will see:

"SAVE $50"
CORTESE MEDIA STAND
NOW $299.

http://www.worldmarket.com/costplus/site/rop/index.jsp
post #76 of 10792
Tom,

Thanks for the printout of the specs. Looks like NHT has a pretty fleshed-out line here..something for everybody. Heck, if the 3 doesn't work as a center, try the 3C..or vice versa! I look forward to hearing them all.

Ran
post #77 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

FYI, the closer the 2C or 3C are located to the ground, the better the frequency response will be. The ground will behave somewhat like the baffle that a large TV creates.

Jack, does this also equally apply to the M5/M6 as well?
post #78 of 10792
I must say I am amazed. Never have I heard of the Director of Engineering for a stereo manufacturer do what Jack is doing! You rock Jack!!! I must look you up at CES this January. Hope you will be there. Feel free to shoot me an email.
post #79 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

The only real way to know for sure if you like the sound of the 2C or 3C used on a stand is to listen to it. FYI, the closer the 2C or 3C are located to the ground, the better the frequency response will be. The ground will behave somewhat like the baffle that a large TV creates. If you put the 2C or 3C on a 24"-30" tall stand, they will definitely sound different than when placed on a large TV.

Basically, what Jack is saying is that the 2C and 3C are designed to have an accurate sound with some boundary reinforcement. If you have it on a stand, it will change the tonal balance, but that does not mean it will sound *worse*, it will simply mean that it won't sound as balanced. Any speaker benefits from being away from boundaries. But it is likely that a THREE which is balanced to be away from boundaries (I assume) will do a little better on a stand, away from walls, than the 2C or 3C.
post #80 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomHuffman View Post

I have to wonder about the wisdom of specifically targeting a center channel for use with CRT direct views and rear projectors, whose market share is clearly declining overall and especially declining in the high end, the market that includes those consumers most willing to pay $600 for a center channel..

Tom,

NHT has speakers that can be used away from TVs (Zero, TWO, THREE, etc), on TVs (2C, 3C, M5, M6, etc) and against the wall (M5, M6, L5, etc), so the "wisdom" here is to make a few different choices for every situation.
post #81 of 10792
Went back to World Market and found out that the
Media cabinet that I was buying for the 3C has a shelf that is only 5" tall.
So neither the 3C or the smaller 2C will fit.
Back to square one.

Called my dealer here in Charleston and told them that when orders open up to
order an extra pair of Threes so if I like them I won't have to wait.
post #82 of 10792
Any update on the release date?

Is it still going to be around November.
post #83 of 10792
No news is good news!

I think they're still on target, but I think it will be more realistic to say "late November" for shipping and a probably drifting into December til they actually show up at the dealers. And, I'd be surprised if shipping didn't drift back. I've never seen that not happen.
post #84 of 10792
Thanks to Bob at NHT, I have posted higher quality images in place the original poorer ones I posted on page 1 of this thread. I think it better shows just how glossy these puppies are!
post #85 of 10792
I have the Hsu STF-2 w/ the NHT Super1...

Now I'm looking at the NHT SW10 II sub online(for another system), wonder anyone have listen to both the STF-2 and SW10?

Thanks,
post #86 of 10792
They're actually pretty comparable. The SW10 doesn't go quite as deep, but has nicer contruction (at least compared to the VTF2) and a cleaner, nicer amp. I thought the Hsu was more powerful, but the SW10 slightly better sounding. But I am referencing the previous SW10 vs the VTF2, but I suspect the comparison still is pretty close to accurate.
post #87 of 10792
thx, sound like the sw10 II is even better for music, i will give it a try...
post #88 of 10792
I have designed in some T6/M6/L5 to my new 7.1 dedicated HT and I spoke to a dealer recently who told me the L5s are being discontinued. I can't see any indication of that anywhere else so maybe he just go his facts wrong - any comments anyone? Also am I just going to be wishing I had waited another 6 months to upgrade my current system because the evolutions get replaced or do you think they will be around for a while yet......

Speculation, speculation.......
post #89 of 10792
Nope. No L5s being discontinued to my knowledge. Very popular speaker and one of the best on-walls on the market. At worst, they'll get updated. It's one of our most popular speakers, but then all of the NHTs are.

Evolutions will be on the market for a solid 1-2 years more. Any possible replacement couldn't possibly show up until at least CEDIA 2006/CES2007 and then there's the normal 3-6 month arrival time after being shown.
post #90 of 10792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alimentall View Post


I don't suppose there is any chance of the Three being available in white?
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