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New NHT Classic line to replace Super Audio - Page 327

post #9781 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Anyway, if you are using the Fours as your sol subs, why not let your AVR do the bass management. Use the LFE input of the X2 for the sub portion (so it's basically a level control - which I do with my current X1's).

I don't claim to know much about the X2, and I realize that you now the "go to" guy on this thread, so I humbly ask this with all due respect, but shouldn't the Fours be ran as large since they have internal crossovers already built in for the subs?

Also, wasn't there some discussion about 6 months or so ago about an upgraded X2?
post #9782 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_m10 View Post

I keep thinking about Ascend's Sierras as well although they are really in another price bracket now. Bob

The Ascend Sierras are good speakers, but IMO the Threes are more detailed in the midrange.
post #9783 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

I don't claim to know much about the X2, and I realize that you now the "go to" guy on this thread, so I humbly ask this with all due respect, but shouldn't the Fours be ran as large since they have internal crossovers already built in for the subs?

Also, wasn't there some discussion about 6 months or so ago about an upgraded X2?

Well, I don't consider myself the 'go to guy', just trying to help in something I've been doing as a hobby sine in the 4th grade (built my first speakers back then). I've had NHT's since the introduction of the original Super Zeros and have gone through multiple renditions. I've tried many other brands but always come back to NHT because I feel they give the best sound for the money (sure, I love the Revel Salon 2s, but they are way out of my pocket book). I've also set up many, many systems for family and friends - just about all the major brands of speakers, so am familiar with a lot - and still have come down to the same conclusion. The local NHT dealer a couple years ago, but when he was here, we did lot a A/B test comparisons with many speakers (yes, double blind, level matched tests). He also sold Revel, Genesis, and others.

Yes, there was a discussion on the X2. Also, many like to run the Fours large (I did that for some time). One thing to remember, and this is important, is that the best place for subwoofer placement (best, most even bass) is rarely the same as speaker placement for best imaging. Also, I've always used Audyssey based AVRs (since their introduction) and there is more power in correcting the subwoofer outputs (with the exception of XT32). If one wants to do a mod to the X2, absolutely go for it. It's not that hard - I'm just curious if there will actually be a difference in the sound, especially if using an AVR with correction. As mentioned above, I only used the X2 to bi-amp the bass of the Fours, the upper portion was not connected through the X2 (I used the LFE input/sub output to the sub). I let the AVR do the XO, which was directly connected to the upper portion of the Fours and found this to be the best way to extract the best sound from my system at the time.

I crossover my Fours at 60Hz. Keep in mind that most XO's built into AVR's are 12db/octave so there is still some energy in the 40Hz range. I like to XO all my speakers at least 20Hz above their rated -3db lower point. For the Fours, Audyssey always sets them as Full Range, I always re-set to 60Hz. They just sound better there and are much more dynamic in the Midbass when doing so. Subwoofers are dedicated to the bass region, so why not let them deal with that portion.

You can always try the Fours full range and then XO'd to a sub and use your preference. It's really about how it sounds to you. I've tried both configuration and many different XO points to get what I like best in our room. I do use and XT32 based AVR and also use the Audyssey Pro Kit to get everything dialed in as much as possible. The room is also acoustically treated with broadband traps (necessary since the room is fairly small).

Hope I did not ramble too much...
post #9784 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Also, many like to run the Fours large (I did that for some time). One thing to remember, and this is important, is that the best place for subwoofer placement (best, most even bass) is rarely the same as speaker placement for best imaging. Also, I've always used Audyssey based AVRs (since their introduction) and there is more power in correcting the subwoofer outputs (with the exception of XT32). If one wants to do a mod to the X2, absolutely go for it. It's not that hard - I'm just curious if there will actually be a difference in the sound, especially if using an AVR with correction. As mentioned above, I only used the X2 to bi-amp the bass of the Fours, the upper portion was not connected through the X2 (I used the LFE input/sub output to the sub). I let the AVR do the XO, which was directly connected to the upper portion of the Fours and found this to be the best way to extract the best sound from my system at the time.

I crossover my Fours at 60Hz. Keep in mind that most XO's built into AVR's are 12db/octave so there is still some energy in the 40Hz range. I like to XO all my speakers at least 20Hz above their rated -3db lower point. For the Fours, Audyssey always sets them as Full Range, I always re-set to 60Hz. They just sound better there and are much more dynamic in the Midbass when doing so. Subwoofers are dedicated to the bass region, so why not let them deal with that portion.

You can always try the Fours full range and then XO'd to a sub and use your preference. It's really about how it sounds to you. I've tried both configuration and many different XO points to get what I like best in our room. I do use and XT32 based AVR and also use the Audyssey Pro Kit to get everything dialed in as much as possible. The room is also acoustically treated with broadband traps (necessary since the room is fairly small).

Hope I did not ramble too much...

Right, I understand all that. I thought you meant to use the AVR's crossover even when not using a sub with them, but evidentally you didn't mean it that way.

I vaugely remember that there was some talk about an upgraded X2 with better high pass outputs that NHT didn't even know about until it was revealed on this thread, but I may be mistaken.
post #9785 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

Ahh, that makes more sense. Are you using the Fours subs as your main subs or do you also have dedicated subs? At one point in the past I did bi-amp my Fours, but found I much prefer the sound with a dedicated sub and the Fours XO'd at 60Hz with the AVR taking care of the base management.

Anyway, if you are using the Fours as your sol subs, why not let your AVR do the bass management. Use the LFE input of the X2 for the sub portion (so it's basically a level control - which I do with my current X1's).

If you are up for doing the Mod, it's not that difficult as long as the part's you are adding have very close to the same pin configuration as the originals to fit on the board correctly (I did not look into your part replacement). It may, or may not, make an actual difference in the sound and would be hard to know unless you have both an original and modded X2 to compare.

You can call NHT, they are actually pretty open to talk with. They may have an idea if it would be worth the trouble.

I'd be curious about your impressions if you do your mod, keep us posted.

This is in a two channel music only system. My preamp has no bass management.

I have already modded the Classic Fours a little - I removed the passive crossover from the subwoofer section, so the driver is directly connected to the binding posts. I also plugged up the port. I think the bass is noticeably tighter.

I will post my results after I do the mod.

Mark
post #9786 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post


Also, wasn't there some discussion about 6 months or so ago about an upgraded X2?

I searched the thread but haven't been able to find anything. Its kind of an issue with these ginormous threads but what can you do?

If anyone finds anything I would be grateful!

Mark
post #9787 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

Right, I understand all that. I thought you meant to use the AVR's crossover even when not using a sub with them, but evidentally you didn't mean it that way.

I vaugely remember that there was some talk about an upgraded X2 with better high pass outputs that NHT didn't even know about until it was revealed on this thread, but I may be mistaken.

Sorry, sometimes I'm not so clear when typing fast.

I'm not sure how long ago the X2 discussion occurred as most of the mod discussions were for the X1 (20Hz mod).
post #9788 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hedges View Post

This is in a two channel music only system. My preamp has no bass management.

I have already modded the Classic Fours a little - I removed the passive crossover from the subwoofer section, so the driver is directly connected to the binding posts. I also plugged up the port. I think the bass is noticeably tighter.

I will post my results after I do the mod.

Mark

Mark,

That makes a lot more sense now - you do have to rely on the X2 for XO duty then. Yes, I agree when playing the Fours with full bandwidth that the ports plugged do sound a bit tighter (I wish they had designed it as a sealed designed just like the rest of the Classic series - at least the top portion is sealed). When XO'd at 60Hz or above, the issue of the ports is gone - it's extremely tight.

Remove the internal XO is the best way to use an electronic XO - it will give the cleanest signal. Keep us posted on your mod - I'd be curious on your thoughts/experience. I've done several of the 20Hz mods on the X1 - it's not too much work to get the board out. The X2 is designed the same way with only a few resistors and capacitors that are different (specific to NHT's W1 and W2 subs).

Have fun with it!
post #9789 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

That's great - big upgrade from the SB2's (I had the SB3's, ST's, SB2's back in the day also, they were great for the price but the Classic series is just much more detailed). Keep us posted!!! What sub are you using with them?

Right now I'm using an old original first gen Sunfire True Sub. That's next on my upgrade and replace list. I'm really surprised at how low the 3s go on their own, though. I knew they'd do better on bass than the SB2s but surprised at how much lower they actually go. Loving the new speakers.

What subs to you recommend? I want to stay with a small form factor like e Sunfire but want it to better for music and deeper for ht. Thanks! I'm jealous of you Four owners. Those are great speakers but a little too big for my living room.
post #9790 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by nymartyk View Post

Right now I'm using an old original first gen Sunfire True Sub. That's next on my upgrade and replace list. I'm really surprised at how low the 3s go on their own, though. I knew they'd do better on bass than the SB2s but surprised at how much lower they actually go. Loving the new speakers.

What subs to you recommend? I want to stay with a small form factor like e Sunfire but want it to better for music and deeper for ht. Thanks! I'm jealous of you Four owners. Those are great speakers but a little too big for my living room.

Don't worry - your Threes with a sub really level the playing field and for most the Fours are just not needed. My wife actually prefers the looks of towers over speakers on stands (she's an interior designer and says it's more 'balanced'). Glad you are enjoying them.

As for a sub, the NHT's are small form factor and work well, but can be pricy. There are other you can look at from ID companies like Emotiva (great price), HSU, SVS (very good but pricey - they have some great sealed subs), and others. There are many to choose from. What price range are you looking at? Maybe Sunfire still makes some. I've seen some from Pinnacle speakers that have some very small form factors with dual drivers. One thing to remember, bass is about moving air, so it takes a LOT more power and movement from a small sub then a larger one.
post #9791 of 10794
[quote=65 Electra Glide;21582629]And that extra money sure doesn't buy you better measurements either.

Interesting that the sensitivity is about the same for both speakers. I would have thought the NHT's would be less considering the sealed design. Am I reading that correctly? -Bob
post #9792 of 10794
[quote=bob_m10;21585934]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

And that extra money sure doesn't buy you better measurements either.

Interesting that the sensitivity is about the same for both speakers. I would have thought the NHT's would be less considering the sealed design. Am I reading that correctly? -Bob

Yes, you are. Try not to get stuck on the sensitivity issue unless you have a very large room. Then NHT's will easily reach painful, ear piercing levels in average rooms with a medium priced AVR.
post #9793 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hedges View Post

I searched the thread but haven't been able to find anything. Its kind of an issue with these ginormous threads but what can you do?

If anyone finds anything I would be grateful!

Mark

I was able to find what I was talking about by using the keyword "revision" in my search, and it was longer ago than I thought, but the discussion began here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

Also, try to get a newer, upgraded X1 made on or after 4/25/07 with the latest revision dated Jan 07 that J Palmer Cass referred to a ways back on this thread. One thing here that I'm not sure about is if the current X1s sold with the gloss black Classic U2 subwoofers are the best match for Evo satellites/monitors since Jack did make a comment about the crossover cup had been changed to better match the Classic series, so I don't know about that though. But even if that's the case, bottom line try to get an X1 made on or after 4/25/07, but before say late '08 and you are golden.

I guess I was one of the beta testers for these upgraded units with a prototype, and it does have upgraded high pass filters, power supply, etc.

Below are some of the key posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass View Post

Yes, the date is written on the PC board.

If you look through the top slots from the rear, the latest PC board has X1/X2 PCB REV 2 marked on it in the upper left corner of the main back PC board. There is also an NHT date 1/08/07 marked on the board in the same place. My new X-1's have the latest board, and that is how I know the dates and numbers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Hidley View Post

There are basically three generations of the X1s. The first version had an error in one of the filters, as pointed out in this thread. NHT recalled these units and fixed them. That doesn't guarantee that every single X1 was returned to NHT for rework. The second version of the X1 had new PCBs to fix the filter problem. The third version of the X1 had some modifications to the HP filter, gain structure and power supply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark russ View Post

I can answer this one for Jack - as J Palmer Cass already pointed out long ago, look through the top vents of the unit in good light and you will see what revision you have written in the upper left corner of the PCB. The 3rd (upgraded) generation is dated Jan. '07.

Also, the build date will be on the outside of the X1/X2's box. The 3rd generation was built on or after 4/25/07.

It is cheaper to simply sell your old X1/X2 and buy one of the newer models than to upgrade an old one since the whole PCB would have to replaced.

This also applies to X2s as well as X1s.

I made the emphasis that was not in the original posts.
post #9794 of 10794
My Threes arrived yesterday, and I spent a couple hours listening to them last night. I had heard them before, but after spending as much time as I had with the Towers, first impressions are that they do sound different from the Towers. Not quite as forward, but yet no less detailed. They image very well just like the Towers too.
post #9795 of 10794
[quote=cavchameleon;21586748]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_m10 View Post


Yes, you are. Try not to get stuck on the sensitivity issue unless you have a very large room. Then NHT's will easily reach painful, ear piercing levels in average rooms with a medium priced AVR.

I am way past the music cranking phase. Rarely do I listen at high volume anymore, plus I am sure my External Outlaw amp can push them fine like it does the SuperOnes. My interests is purely academic. thanks again for your help, Bob
post #9796 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

My Threes arrived yesterday, and I spent a couple hours listening to them last night. I had heard them before, but after spending as much time as I had with the Towers, first impressions are that they do sound different from the Towers. Not quite as forward, but yet no less detailed. They image very well just like the Towers too.

Which do you prefer? And if you had to pay the regular price for the Threes plus stands versus the Towers at regular price, which would you choose?

Thanks
post #9797 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kini62 View Post

Which do you prefer? And if you had to pay the regular price for the Threes plus stands versus the Towers at regular price, which would you choose?

Thanks

I really need to spend some more time with the Threes before I make that call. I will say this much though, I already think the Threes definitely sound better than my pair of Revel M12s that are used as wides in my main HT. Click here to compare Soundstage's measurements of the M12.


At regular price, the cost of a decent set of stands added to the cost of the Threes would make them very close to the regular price of the Towers, so I think one should make his or her choice based on which speaker they like better between the two without using a few dollars difference either way to decide.

NHT does often run that special where they throw in the free center speaker with the Towers, and I've never seen that with the Threes.
post #9798 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

I really need to spend some more time with the Threes before I make that call. I will say this much though, I already think the Threes definitely sound better than my pair of Revel M12s that are used as wides in my main HT. Click here to compare Soundstage's measurements of the M12.


At regular price, the cost of a decent set of stands added to the cost of the Threes would make them very close to the regular price of the Towers, so I think one should make his or her choice based on which speaker they like better between the two without using a few dollars difference either way to decide.

NHT does often run that special where they throw in the free center speaker with the Towers, and I've never seen that with the Threes.

It would have been nice if you had the AT's at the same time to do side-by-side listening. They sound a bit different if done that way.

You're right about the specials with the AT's with included center, I've seen that a couple times (that's an awesome deal). The 3C is not cheap, so if working by price, the AT's with an included center can't be beat.
post #9799 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

It would have been nice if you had the AT's at the same time to do side-by-side listening. They sound a bit different if done that way.

You're right about the specials with the AT's with included center, I've seen that a couple times (that's an awesome deal). The 3C is not cheap, so if working by price, the AT's with an included center can't be beat.

I do still have the Towers. I'm not the one who sent them back. That was Alphaiii, but I am interested to hear how he thinks they compare to each other.

The free center they throw in that deal is the Absolute Center, not the 3C, although I do think they will let you upgrade to the 3C or 2C if you pay the difference.
post #9800 of 10794
Curious, besides NHT, any other major manufacture predominantly use a sealed design for speakers? I can't see to find any. -Bob
post #9801 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

I do still have the Towers. I'm not the one who sent them back. That was Alphaiii, but I am interested to hear how he thinks they compare to each other.

The free center they throw in that deal is the Absolute Center, not the 3C, although I do think they will let you upgrade to the 3C or 2C if you pay the difference.

Ah, got it. I did not pay very good attention to those sales at the time. I did pick up the AT's about 3 weeks ago and did some comparisons. You might want to do a side by side comparison:

1) Full bandwidth
2) XO'd at 80Hz, but with the subwoofer off so you can concentrate just on the speakers.

Both are reveling and can help you decide which on you like better - I always try different genres of music for comparisons.

Thanks for sharing.
post #9802 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_m10 View Post

Curious, besides NHT, any other major manufacture predominantly use a sealed design for speakers? I can't see to find any. -Bob

That's a good question. I think the majority of manufactures use ported designs for their better efficiency. Some, like SVS, give you port plugs so you can make it a 'sealed' speaker. I'm curious now and will need to look into it, but as far as I can tell (just the main speakers I can think of) they are all ported. Back in the 80's there were several sealed designs. My first 'real' speakers were Advent Legacy's which were sealed.
post #9803 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

I was able to find what I was talking about by using the keyword "revision" in my search, and it was longer ago than I thought, but the discussion began here.



Below are some of the key posts.








I made the emphasis that was not in the original posts.

Thanks! My X2 is from the last batch close out sale, build date 2010, so it was after the fix.

Mark
post #9804 of 10794
I took advantage of the sale and ordered the Classic Three’s. My current Superones will be hard to beat but I hope the Threes can do it.

NHT is pretty unique with their acoustic suspension design and a three way to boot which makes it a fun purchase. Not the same two-way ported monitor that everyone else is peddling. I was initially worried about that extra cross over in such a low priced speaker but it has been well vetted now with positive reviews all over.

BTW, I noticed today that Crutchfield raised their price on the Threes and Amazon only has one left. I believe the sale ends next week so hurry if you want this price.

Bob
post #9805 of 10794
congrats Bob! I have no doubt that the Threes will trump your superones, that's a big upgrade. If you take a look at the XO inside, NHT did not skimp. The parts are, for the price, top notch. They could have used more expensive XO parts and drivers, but then that would put it in a very different price range (there are small 2 way speakers out there that cost over $5k, for a reason...and you wonder if it's 10X better in sound - doubt it very much. There is a point of diminishing returns and, IMO, NHT is near that point. You can get better, but will pay a lot of $ for a little improvement.
post #9806 of 10794
'Grats!

Like CavCham, I'm confident you'll like the Threes over the SuperOnes. I had budgeted the remainder of my gift card balance to get a SuperZero 2.0 and Super8 sub combination, but the deal on the Threes was just too good to pass up, and I don't regret that decision at all. I decided that I would get them instead of the Super system, pick beween the Threes and the Towers for the bedroom surround system, and then use the other pair for the home office instead of the Supers.
post #9807 of 10794
thanks guys:

65: I am curious what you think of the threes (plus sub) vs your Towers? -Bob
post #9808 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob_m10 View Post

thanks guys:

65: I am curious what you think of the threes (plus sub) vs your Towers? -Bob

See post #9799, but I will post more after I've listened to the Threes a lot more than I have so far.

Have a great weekend all.
post #9809 of 10794
Will a Denon 1611 be sufficient to drive the Classic Threes in a 13'x20' room with an 8' ceiling? Main LP is about 8 feet. I assume so, but thought I'd better ask. I'd be pairing them with an Outlaw EX sub for music (90%), and probably using them in 4.1 for HT (10%) with phantom center, at least for now anyway. Upgrade from Jamo S606. The current deal on the C3s looks to good to pass up, if I can make it happen.

Thanks, guys.
post #9810 of 10794
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65 Electra Glide View Post

'Grats!

Like CavCham, I'm confident you'll like the Threes over the SuperOnes. I had budgeted the remainder of my gift card balance to get a SuperZero 2.0 and Super8 sub combination, but the deal on the Threes was just too good to pass up, and I don't regret that decision at all. I decided that I would get them instead of the Super system, pick beween the Threes and the Towers for the bedroom surround system, and then use the other pair for the home office instead of the Supers.

Sweet! You'll have a couple great sounding rooms!
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